 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| veeeight wrote: |
| rjs, ahhhhh. My mishtake! It said CSIA not CSCF so I assumed CSIA! |
I could have misinterpreted what was written. The BASI presentation at the meeting in Meribel was just about race coaching, but I haven't seen anything written afterwards.
Maybe BASI 4 is just CSIA 1 relabelled, so that BASI avoids needing to agree any ownership rights for ASSI with the Home Nations.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret,
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I personally don’t feel that person "who can ski to basic parallel standard" take a 2 day course followed by 20 hours of supervision is qualified enough to teach skiing at any level.
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I believe my local slope only employs CI's to teach up to very basic parallel level, and in most cases the CI should be able to do a perfectly good job of this. I think they also get paid less than the ASSI/BASI/etc instructors. We've all got to start somewhere, and I think that the slope would really struggle over the Winter if it wasn't for CI's. There just aren't enough higher qualified instructors around.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, One thing to consider is that the week long BASI foundation course will be given by a BASI trainer and the quality of instruction will be high.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| rob@rar, One thing to consider is that the week long BASI foundation course will be given by a BASI trainer and the quality of instruction will be high. |
Which is why I'm interested in doing it rather than one of the ASSI variants.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Sorry to keep on about this.
| ski wrote: |
| roga, SSE ASSI and Scottish ASSI are equivalent. You get a UK wide license with an ASSI, there is no difference in the outcome. The SSE (and Welsh) systems have a different route - i.e. via Club Instructor, but that's all. |
Yes, I fully accept the outcome is the same (at least on paper), it's the route there that I'm interested in and, again, I'm presuming that there's some difference with the Scottish route to ASSI that impressed BASI.
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| I think the reason for the difference is that the Scottish course can be taught on snow |
Both English and Scottish ASSIs are artificial slope courses so can be taught in snowdomes or on plastic.
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| - when there is some, |
BASI do their Trainee courses on 'real' snow in Scotland (Cairngorm, Glenshee etc.) as well as in Europe - the ASSI is not undertaken on the real stuff.
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| whereas the weekend courses used by SSE are more suited to the dryslopes and volunteer/part time nature of teaching in England. |
Perhaps but a lot of the Scottish ASSI courses are, strange though it may seem, taught south of the border - see the courses here
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| The only difference is that BASI only recognise the Scottish one. It is not the case that (other than BASI recognition) one is different to the other. |
In outcome yes but it's the route and why BASI favours one route above the other that interests me... but I think I've said that enough now 
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| rob@rar, One thing to consider is that the week long BASI foundation course will be given by a BASI trainer and the quality of instruction will be high. |
Which is why I'm interested in doing it rather than one of the ASSI variants. |
However there are those that argue the teaching based focus of the ASSI makes for a better understanding of basic teaching techniques than the BASI course.
Not sure how that works now though given that the "BASI foundation has been redesigned to mirror the Scottish ASSI programme" - six of one half a dozen of the other perhaps! 
BTW, I believe a number of the Scottish ASSI courses use BASI trainers too... there's a thread on here somewhere I recall reading that on.
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skimottaret, I think this depends on where you are teaching. My daughter started a course at Gloucester in May 2006 leading to a CI qualification. The course ran/runs one evening each week and began with several months of personal performance sessions combined with general information on teaching (and there was a first aid qualification over one of the weekends). The serious work began in September and since then she has been attending weekly personal development sessions (both skiing and teaching) and fitting in her shadowing in addition to all the other things that A-level students have to do these days. After the 20 hours or so she had her skiing ability assessed over an evening (and some of the others were not successful at this stage) and now she has to demonstrate her teaching ability before she can receive the qualification. That represents a considerable commitment in my view. Once she is a CI she will be paid (national minimum wage) for any teaching she does.
Will she go on to do ASSI - probably not. But that is because she wants to do a gap year BASI 3 course. We, since we will have to fund this, wanted her to demonstrate that she really was interested in the teaching side of skiing and that she had some aptitude (otherwise she might just as well have a season skiing without the cost of the BASI course). The rigorous and professional way the Gloucester Ski Centre has gone about the training suggests to me that far from all CIs are underqualified and do not possess the skiing skills required to instill confidence in their charges.
So far as I know the only perk offered to instructors at Gloucester is their evening of personal development each week. Some at least take this seriously.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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brian, Thanks, I think I understand a bit more now!
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| roga wrote: |
| BTW, I believe a number of the Scottish ASSI courses use BASI trainers too... there's a thread on here somewhere I recall reading that on. |
I'm sure that the quality of instruction on the ASSI course will be high, even if it has a different focus, but all things being equal I would rather do it on a mountain than on plastic. But as was suggested earlier, I will look at doing both unless the changes which are being debated makes than entirely unnecessary.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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iblair,
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There just aren't enough higher qualified instructors around.
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it is a bit chicken and egg isnt it. By having set the bar so low with a CI grade there is no incentive to get a higher qualification if you just want to teach in the UK.
I did a straw poll with some recently qualified BASI 3's and 4 reported that their local dry slopes have changed in the last few years from having a staggered pay structure based on qualifications to now only having a single (lower) pay rate. My slope used to pay part timers £5 an hour and now refuse to pay at all, only offering free skiing. Only one scottish slope had a higher pay rate. This of course may not be representative of all the dry slopes in the UK.
if there is little to no financial incentive to get a BASI 4/ASSI level of qualification, we will end up with loads of CI level instructors delivering the bulk of the training in the UK. IMO this isnt good enough and i think a BASI 4 is perfect for this, consolidating instructors into a single recognised professional body that the Public can be made aware of.
Derek Jackson, It is good to hear that Gloucester takes its training so seriously but the entry qualifcations for CI still sound too low technically for me to qualify as a "ski instructor". I wouldnt want to be taught by someone who is just able to make basic parallel turns which is the benchmark....From what i can see the difference between CI and ASSI is two days of training versus 5, as well as having to demonstrate a higher level of technical ability. In your daughters case doing an ASSI or a BASI foundation course would be the next step before taking her 3 course so she should go for it time allowing. 
Do you know if there is a higher level of pay for ASSI level instructors there?
if the CI level was abolished or could only work on a volunteer basis with school groups etc and not be billed out, the slopes would have a need to employ people with a BASI4/ASSI level of qualification as opposed to abusing the CI rating and would make obtaining higher qualifications more attractive.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| if the CI level was abolished or could only work on a volunteer basis with school groups etc and not be billed out, |
What are you suggesting? A law?
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| roga wrote: |
| Perhaps but a lot of the Scottish ASSI courses are, strange though it may seem, taught south of the border |
Again, this is due to politics.
SSE (long history) do not examine the ASSI on artificial snow, only plastic.
SSS will run the ASSI on artificial snow - so all the CI's currently using indoor snow do not have to go and train/practice on plastic.
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, You seem to have a bee in your bonnet that CI's can't possibly be "good enough" to teach someone how to ski. Would you care to expand on this?
And are you going to fund all CI's the expense of attaining the ASSI? Cos why should they pay out money, to get nothing in return?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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laundryman, as a libertarian you know about laws, what is the current legal situation in the UK with regards the licensing of ski instructors. Is there a legislated minimum standard or can anyone charge for services rendered?
We had this debate a while ago and i seem to remember that in the states there is no licensing and anyone can call themselves a ski instructor.
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, AFAIAA (but I've not studied it) there are no laws specific to ski instruction in the UK.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Is there a legislated minimum standard or can anyone charge for services rendered?
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I would doubt it as I don't think BASI is a regulatory body in the same way the GMC, GDC or Law Society are. The only legal element I would say is that if ski schools, dry slopes or snowdomes employed someone as an instructor, then someone receiving training from them got injured and took action against the employer. I think the employer would get into bother with the HSE for employing someone in a role where there is a recognised training pathway, and that this person had not followed that training pathway.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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veeeight,
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Cos why should they pay out money, to get nothing in return?
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Precisely, by having loads of under qualified teachers with CI badges the people making money are the slope operators not the instructors. Seems to me that CI's get paid miniumum wage (if they are lucky) and there is no incentive to get an ASSI or further qualification as there is no financial reward for doing so. I appreciate that instructing is a labour of love for most people but youngsters getting on the ladder should make more than a burger flipper.
I have expanded in previous posts as to why i dont think CI is good enough but to recap a two day training course and skiing to a basic parallel standard doesnt sound high enough to me if i was a punter paying £40 per hour for a lesson. Perhaps i am biased by the poor overall standard of CI's at my dry slope and that at other slopes the standard may be quite a bit higher.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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BGA, your post sounds sensible and perhaps membership in BASI or ASSI just gives the member coverage under a blanket liability insurance and demonstrates a basic level of competency through a training pathway.
But if you have a BASI badge you are issued with a "license" whatever that means i'm not sure.
laundryman, might be a good one for you to dig into and see what the reality is legally
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think that BASI calling it a licence is a bit misleading, particularly if they as a 'licensing body' have no true regulatory power.
Just out of interest who owns BASI? Do they have any public funding at all?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret, Can see your point, but getting someone to learn to ski is not rocket science. The first 3-4 hours are all about keeping safe, having fun, sliding, guided discovery. At that level of teaching the most important factor is the instructor's soft skills. Something which, alas, not even a ASSI nor BASI can necessarily deliver.
Getting someone skiing beyond those first few hours technically well - now that is a different argument alltogether.
Perhaps you've been tainted by the perceived quality of CI's at your local slope. Well, it's all relative. I've seen BASI3's and some 2's that I wouldn't let teach my mother.
I think, paying £40 per hour and insisting that a 3 star Michelin chef shows you how to boil water and fry an egg, is perhaps a little OTT.
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BGA, From their website
BASI is a Members' association and the nationally and internationally recognised body for training and examining British Snowsport Instructors
From companies house they are a limited company listed as a members organisation with around £500k on their balance sheet as of fiscal 06. no mention is made of government finance or quango status.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| roga wrote: |
| Perhaps but a lot of the Scottish ASSI courses are, strange though it may seem, taught south of the border |
Again, this is due to politics.
SSE (long history) do not examine the ASSI on artificial snow, only plastic. |
Ah, that makes sense.
Interesting though that looking here the majority of upcoming SSS ASSI courses are in England, kinda makes a bit of a mockery of the geographical boundaries of the various associations.
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| SSS will run the ASSI on artificial snow - so all the CI's currently using indoor snow do not have to go and train/practice on plastic. |
But they'll have to get the full SSS ASSI qualification though since there's no CI level with the SSS qualification.
I suppose though that means, for those voicing concern about CIs teaching on plastic, that instructors in the snowdomes would tend to be full ASSIs rather than just CIs... not that I'm taking sides in that debate, just making a point which someone might want to pick up.
What I can echo is the point that at Gloucester the quality of instruction and training is high (my daughter has had lessons and it's where I'm doing the ASSI), I've also been impressed with the instructors (again from my daughter's POV) at the Tamworth Snowdome. In contrast I was unimpressed (to say the very least) by the quality of instruction at the Avon dry slope at Churchill and removed my daughter from lessons there in favour of Gloucester and Tamworth despite the extra travel involved.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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roga,
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Gloucester the quality of instruction
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I think that has much more to do with it than the licensing body...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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God I'm turning into an anorak, but just saw this in the ISIA constitution
Only one organisation from each country may become a member of the ISIA. Each member must represent the professional ski instructors in ist own country and has to be an organisation which is founded according to the legal prescriptions of its nation and which is an acknowledged, independent association with its own by-laws.
Does seem a bit odd that the UK has three bodies representing it's ski instructors - the gist from a lot of the posts above is that BASI seems to want to consolidate it's position as the only examining body - which is fair enough I suppose. Doubt it will have any major impact on the quality of instruction at lower levels as I think that is more down to the attitude and aptitude of the people involved but might make the training pathway a bit clearer
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ah - but if you want membership of the IVSI.... one of the 3 international governing bodies (ISIA is one of them) - then the route is through SSS or SSE.
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As a point of information (if anyone is interested) the volunteer CI's and ASSI's at our slope don't get paid anything. They do have to pay for their own training and assessments, first aid courses etc. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| veeeight wrote: |
skimottaret, Can see your point, but getting someone to learn to ski is not rocket science. The first 3-4 hours are all about keeping safe, having fun, sliding, guided discovery. At that level of teaching the most important factor is the instructor's soft skills. Something which, alas, not even a ASSI nor BASI can necessarily deliver.
Getting someone skiing beyond those first few hours technically well - now that is a different argument alltogether.
Perhaps you've been tainted by the perceived quality of CI's at your local slope. Well, it's all relative. I've seen BASI3's and some 2's that I wouldn't let teach my mother.
I think, paying £40 per hour and insisting that a 3 star Michelin chef shows you how to boil water and fry an egg, is perhaps a little OTT. |
I sort of agree with skimottaret on this. I've generally been unimpressed by the standard of most of the CIs I've met and I'd be uncomfortable if these particular CIs were doing anything more than teaching snowplough. As progress is so quick nowadays I reckon a base level qualification set at at least ASSI/BASI Trainee/CSIA 1 would ensure that the instructor was fully conversant with the fundamentals. While I recognise that the cost of the course these days is a problem for many, particularly if unpaid, I suspect that the CI level will eventually for reasons of liability become defunct. Pay of course will always be a question of supply and demand.
However, off topic, I also agree with the points made by veeeight. My apologies if he doesn't agree but they effectively support my view that on snow a BASI 3/CSIA 2 minimum, with a BASI 2/CSIA 3/ISIA level for autonomous instruction, and BASI 1/ISTD/Eurotest for kudos would be about the right pitch.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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boredsurfin, Her comes your explanation.
SSE = Snowsports England.
CI = Club Instructor - Local artificial slope basic qualification. teaches up to Plough-Parrallel, Insured, CRB checked, First Aid.
ASSI = Artificial Slope Ski Instructor. Any artificial slope, all levels, Insured, CRB, First Aid.
SSS = Snowsports Scotland
ASSI = Artificial Slope Ski Instructor. Any artificial slope, all levels, Insured, No CRB requirement, First Aid.
BASI = British Association of Snowsports Instructors
Ski Instructor - All levels on snow, requires 'Test Technique' to work in France as Stagiere. Insured, First Aid, No CRB requirement.
Ski Teacher - ISIA = International Ski Instructors Alliance - Worldwide recognised standard.
ISTD = International Ski Teacher Diploma - can teach anywhere and set up a Ski School.
The difference between SSE & SSS ASSI is that, SSS run's a 5 day course of constant assesment with a pass at the end or a requirement for additional improvement followed by a reassesment, followed by 20 hours supervised instruction.
SSE ASSI is a 2 day course, followed by a 1 day exam. This is strictly a Pass or Fail test.
Either home nation ASSI's can be converted to the other by SSS to SSE by engaging a SSE Placement Coach & doing 20 hours supervised instruction, after which time you will hopefully be OK'd to get the equivilent SSE ASSI.
SSE to SSS ASSI, by attending 1 day of a running 5 day SSS ASSI course. Being signed off at standard by SSS Coach.
The reason BASI did not recognise SSE ASSI as a exemption, is the SSE do not teach the BASI Central Theme, within their course unlike Scotland.
Up until last year SSS ASSI was an auto exemption from BASI Trainee Course.
This year it was on SSS Coach's recommendation.
Next year because of BASI, SSS & SSE not agreeing on how Qualifications would be administered, etc. BASI has withdrawn the exemption for ASSI and decided to go it alone.
Why there are so many organisations dates back to how Snowsports were funded from the Sports Council originally, it was financially beneficial to have a number of home nations rather than just one, when it came to funding grants. It doesn't make any difference now. The problem is the home nations do not want to give up their power.
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Poster: A snowHead
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As a layman isn't there a danger that all this internal flux and cross border politicking is just wasted time?
I appreciate that the pros have to protect their livelihood but how do you actually make the public give a damn when the biggest slice of your customer base turn up and have no idea how to even stand on the planks on day 1 let alone ask whether you're first aid certificated?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Spyderman, Thanks for adding a bit more clarity to these muddy waters 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
SSE ASSI is a 2 day course, followed by a 1 day exam.
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Just wanted to add that this is only a 2 day course if you are already club instructor or similar. Otherwise you can do a 4 day course and 1 day assessment as in Scotland. Either way, both qualifications work out at 5 days plus some shadowing
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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iblair, Thanks for the clarification, when I did mine back in the old days, I did it from Club Instructor. We haven't had a SSE assessment at Hemel slope in years, it's all been SSS because of the easy progression to BASI.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Added to my comments earlier about teaching skiing at a beginner level not being rocket science, and a CI is more than qualified - here comes the dillema.
I know, that with my experience, in general, I can take a complete beginner and get them skiing quicker, better, and for them more enjoyable, than a CI who has only 20 hours under their belt.
Why? My eye will almost certainly be better, I will have more experience in tactics, guest services, client care, and will not be re-enforcing bad habits only to be unlearnt later.
Clearly, the CI may, in time, get to this state, with time and experience. So, it may not be all about the qualification per se, but rather the individual, time and experience.
So, will a newly qualified BASI3 be better at teaching beginners than a CI who has worked for 5 years? Probably not.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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veeeight,
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Clearly, the CI may, in time, get to this state, with time and experience. So, it may not be all about the qualification per se, but rather the individual, time and experience.
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We have at Hemel slope a CI who runs the ERSA youth race club, fantastic teaching kids, works with disabled skiers regularly and is a fantastic asset to the slope, but his own personal skiing is at a level where he would struggle to gain the ASSI qualification.
Like you say it's not just the badge.
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| ski wrote: |
roga,
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| Gloucester the quality of instruction |
I think that has much more to do with it than the licensing body... |
I agree, to be honest the difference in standards at our two local slopes (Gloucester and Avon) is (or at least was six months ago) massive. At the time I didn't realise that the instructors were probably CIs (or at best ASSIs) but the inadequacies of the one against the other were marked and obvious to me. As I've said the result is that we haven't been back to one and have been back to the other... frequently!
Having just got back from a training session at Gloucester I'd say the core of instructors there are certainly at BASI 3 standard if not higher and the coaching I was getting was certainly complimenting and of a reasonably comparable standard to the excellent tuiton I've had over the past season from a couple of BASI 1s in Europe and an excellent NZ trained instructor I had over in Mammoth. I'm not saying they're necessarily up to that standard overall but neither are they glaringly below par either.
As for the comments above about CIs/ASSIs 'only' teaching people to snowplough, well yes certainly that's the case with CIs but having spent an hour or so tonight being coached in the 'correct' way to demonstrate snowploughs, stemming and all the rest the emphasis is rather on taking your skiing technique back to basics, pulling it apart and rebuilding it - something I believe is very much the emphasis with BASI too. Again I can well believe this is probably rather more to do with the quality and ability of the instructors at Gloucester than the licensing body but it's interesting to note all the same. Oh and it's no walk in the park either I might add, especially when, like me, you haven't done all that stuff for many years... it's fun though and I can see it having an affect on the quality of my technique already 
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| boredsurfin, Her comes your explanation. |
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| BASI = British Association of Snowsports Instructors |
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| Ski Instructor - All levels on snow, requires 'Test Technique' to work in France as Stagiere. Insured, First Aid, No CRB requirement. |
All levels on snow ? Don't think all levels is correct
'Test technique' or 'Eurotest' required to work in france
What does CRB stand for?
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| Ski Teacher - ISIA = International Ski Instructors Alliance - Worldwide recognised standard. |
'Test Technique' or 'Eurotest' required to work in France unless you were registered before last September
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| ISTD = International Ski Teacher Diploma - can teach anywhere and set up a Ski School. |
Not qualified to teach on Glaciated terrain
Why do you have to be a ISTD to set up a ski school? If you employ the correct qualified instructors surley this should be sufficent?
The 'Dry slopes' in the UK are not all run/owned by ISTD's. Does European law not cover uk slopes or are the French just protecting their interests?
Looking forward to your comments
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stewart woodward, Wahey I can answer one of your questions !
CRB = Criminal Records Bureau.... a check to make sure you are not a kiddy fiddler on the sex offenders register banned from working with children etc etc
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boredsurfin,
Many thanks.
CRB is now part of Grade 3 Instructor level.
If you work in France it is also part of the paperwork you have to complete before being accepted.
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FAQ
to offer and run their own courses?
