 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
abc, I wonder which boots and binding she's referring to here, and whether her gear was edgeless.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
comprex, if you're referring to me, I was talking about cross country (classic) skis and boots. So yes, total lack of edges! I was wondering whether I was likely to have any more success on telemark skis.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| comprex wrote: |
| abc, I wonder which boots and binding she's referring to here, and whether her gear was edgeless. |
Telemark turn is just a technique, there's no reason why you can't use it on the edgeless xc skis. Granted, on less severe slopes. Same as snowplough...
However, the difficulty with xc gear, it's interesting to compare the numbers:
* My alpine ski is 155cm long, my x-c ski is 180cm!!! -- X-c skis is not only edgeless, it's also much longer than typical alpine skis. If that's not bad enough, very flappy at the tip and tail.
* I ski "narrow" alpine ski, with 68mm underfoot, but my xc ski has a 55mm waist!!! -- X-c skis are usually quite a bit narrower underfoot.
In general, you can't "muscle" those long flappy things as you could with alpine gear. You need to finese your way about. And finding your balance on those long narrow planks can be a bit tricky, to say the least. So, it's not surprising pam has difficulty snowploughing on them!
I remember watching the Olympics and there's this Russian guy, fighting for the first place on the final stretch of the course, FELL!  If a world class xc skier can fall on the flat like that, it surely make me feel better when I fell on the downhill. 
Now, tele gears goes all over the map. Some as flappy (almost) as xc skis, which will be light and fast, but tricky to learn on. Others, the kind hire out on alpine resorts, are more like their alpine cousin, only without the heel lock. So yes, Pam, you'll probably find it easier to snowplough on those tele gears. But you may again find it hard to transfer back to the narrower long planks used for backcountry tours.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 22-04-07 16:37; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
pam w,  you still haven't said which: the wider BC-style and 75mm bindings, and the higher cuff boots (like Chip is using in my earlier video link) make even edgeless snowploughs a lot easier. I seem to remember Visu made an 80mm-waist edgeless ski at one point. . .
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
comprex, my cross country skis are 48mm wide! Boots are fairly floppy. Standard gear for classic (ie not skating) x-c around here. , Even good cross country skiers look a bit awkward trying to snowplough, but not as awkward as I do! Sometimes you see people on cross country skis round the alpine slopes - once I'd tried it, I realised how extremely good they had to be to go down even blue slopes under control. I did find learning snowboarding a whole heap easier than going downhill on those 48mm edgeless skis; a snowboard is a socking great plank with a good edge!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
pam w, how do tele skis compare downhill to 48mm cc skis as far as going down slopes? im wondering if it gets easier and nearer to learning snowboarding...
comprex, dumb question but i am guessing tele setups always have edges as you can use alpine skis with tele bindings. Are there any tele skis without edges?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have to agree with Parlor I've been teleing for over 15 years now. My alpine skiing had gotten in a rut and my knees ached just sitting on a chair with all the weight of the gear now my knees are happier, ache less, and I can ski anywhere i wish with this gear. Just spent two days skiing the hardest runs I could find at Big Sky, MT. The best part is you have so many options in your skiing style, just watch the different tele styles on any hill with them. I love the turn it's fun, no it's a giggle, and yes it is harder than alpining or snowboarding, but with the new gear it is much easier to learn than it was back when it was leather boots and skinny skis. I have a ski instructor clinician friend who started taking it up, and now 150 ski days on teles over two seasons, and he can tele anything and prefers the freedom tele skiing offers.
There's a book called Allen and Mike's Really Cool Telemark Tips, which has just about every tip you'll hear learning to tele.
As to the hiking yes I love the freesom of that too, but can spend days just skiing the blacks as well. i know that i'm always happy i tele when we end up in a hole in the backcountry and the boarders and alpiners struggle to hike out even without skins it's still rather easy in tele gear, and the boots are comfortable. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| pam w wrote: |
| comprex, Even good cross country skiers look a bit awkward trying to snowplough |
In classic xc skiing, there's so much to perfect when it comes to gliding on the flat, and trying to get UP hills. It's no too surprising many "good" skiers don't spend much time praticing downhill skills.
Nonetheless, I'm still somewhat shocked at how many xc skier of multi-year experience still are afraid of relatively easy downhills.
Coming from alpine, I found the skill I learned on alpine downhill readily transferable to xc. As a matter of fact, I once took a Swiss to xc for the first time. Being a very "natural" alpine skier, he wasted no time mastering snowplough, skating on classic skis (much longer and flappier), and in general being VERY COMFORTABLE and in total control of those two super long soft planks! I can only imagine what the Scandinaviens are like on xc skis!
I could be wrong. But I think for a good alpine skier, it might not be so hard to learn telenmark, especially with the newer telemark gear that has such control.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
abc wrote...
| Quote: |
Nothing work too well when you're on the backseat! Snowplough, parallel, telemark, even snowboard. The front of the ski/board is where the "action" is.
|
Not quite - to quote from Paul Parker's "Free Heel Skiing"
| Quote: |
Your weight should stay evenly distributed between both feet........You will feel the weight resting on your whole front foot and on the ball of your rear foot
|
It is important to use the little-toe (uphill) edge of the rear ski in the tele turn - the mantra is "big-toe : little-toe" ie weight the big-toe on the lead ski & little-toe on the trailing ski, and keep your heel low on the back ski to weight it - no tip-toe turns as the back ski does nothing if you're on tip toes
In terms of touring capabilities - I've toured on both Tele & AT gear (big tours with heavy packs) and have come the conclusion that AT is the way to go for touring - I really love tele skiing, but you do just have that extra bit of control with fixed heels. These days there is very little difference in weight between the 2 types of kit, so I prefer to tour with AT kit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
pinhead, geoffers, thanks for the book tips i have ordered a copy of each.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I've moved entirely to tele kit this season just gone and it was my third season of tele skiing. My kit is much lighter than my old AT kit, but I have tele specific skis (Fischer Boundless - a nordic touring ski and Fischer Tstinx) mounted with a light weight binding (7-TMs on the latest skis) and I ski a lightweight 2 buckle boot (Crispi XT). Technique wise I'm getting better I can link tele turns on blues and most reds in decent conditions and on some blacks. When it gets steep or conditions get iffy I end up resorting to parallel turns particularly if I build up a lot of speed on steep groomed runs. Not so good in moguls so I usually end up doing parallels. I can ski anything on teles that I could ski on my alpine kit, just that my poor tele skiing means I won't always be using the tele turn.
Just 'cos your heels are free doesn't stop you doing snowploughs or parallel turns etc.
On edgeless narrow track skis I'm poor at doing teleturns but in most situations you just step the skis around the turn anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Dave Horsley wrote: |
I can ski anything on teles that I could ski on my alpine kit, just that my poor tele skiing means I won't always be using the tele turn.
Just 'cos your heels are free doesn't stop you doing snowploughs or parallel turns etc. |
Exactly!
It's just if one's alpine technique is iffy and rely on the high stiff boot to bail you out, then transfering to heels free tele/xc gear will expose those flaws very quickly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dave Horsley, yes! (Well, except for jump turns, that gets different).
skimottaret, pedantically speaking, yes, practically no, if one restricts 'telemark ski' to mean 'ski optimised for telemark descents'. The rule of thumb is that single camber skis have edges.
I was mostly trying to convey to pam w that narrow bases, narrow bindings and low, soft cuffs such as she describes are actually far less inherently stable than wider bases, wider bindings, and taller boots, so that her stability and control troubles stand a fair chance of going away by a shift to heavier duty gear. For example, one might put a NNN-BC binding on a spare pair of in-track diagonal stride skis, and drive them with a plastic-cuff leather boot. Sure, it's heavier but one makes up for that by not flopping about at the ankles.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Dave Horsley,
One thing I did discover this season is that a long slide on hardpack is harder to arrest on teles as they flop around a fair bit - I suspect with practice I'll get use to this.
Allen & Mike's Really Cool Tele book is just about my favourite skiing book, but Paul Parker is generally accepted as the definiive work.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
fatbob,
| Quote: |
Allen & Mike's Really Cool Tele book is just about my favourite skiing book, but Paul Parker is generally accepted as the definiive work.
|
Those are the two tele books I am using to teach myself to tele. In fact I got Paul Parkers book before I bought any tele kit and found his tips for skiing parallel worked just as well with fixed heel gear as free heel gear 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Dave Horsley, great to hear as i have ordered a copy of each ....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
skimottaret,fatbob, Spyderman, im in as well, if we can get a small group togehter to minimize costs even better. cant do weekend of 23rd or 30th of june though.
If there's space for a Snowheads newcomer one weekend then count me in too. No experience but a longing to have a go.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
Your right on the standard but the foundation level for alpine is 16 weeks skiing and good parallel turns on red runs so not too difficult and isnt pass fail
|
Just seen this one. The standard is attendance on the Foundation course...not just being good enough too !
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
ski, interesting so for the ISIA second discipline module you need to do the relevent foundation course as well.... yikes this is getting serious.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
more dumb questions but with regards to Boots. can tele boots be used with AT bindings as well?
if i were to invest in gear it would start with boots and ideally something i could use for both should the tele skiing not get good enough and have to be abandoned i coudl always fall back on randonee...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Nick W, more the merrier. sounds as though
skimottaret, fatbob, Spyderman, Masque, Nick W are all interested in a June MK teleday am i missing anyone?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret,
Not at the moment. Your standard tele binding and boot based on the duckbill and the three pins of the standard 75mm nordic norm won't fit an AT binding. Note the boots may have the holes for the tree pins, but a lot of bindings are cable bindings and don't have 3 pins .
However there are a couple of new binding systems coming out. Rotefellas NTN binding system due out for 2007/08? does away with the duckbill and the boots should fit bot AT and NTN bindings.
BD are also bringing out a new tele binding (due 2008?), not sure if the boots for that will fit AT or not.
If you trawl the new section of telemarktips you can get some info on the new binding systems.
http://www.telemarktips.com/TeleNews.htm
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
skimottaret, I'm quite interested in joining in a beginners tele class too - subject to being able to rent equipment and it not being too extortionate. I'm not sure I'm going to make it "my thing", but I'm interested to find out what it's all about - as when done well it does look really cool.
Couldn't make June 9th, 23rd or 30th (also July 8, 15, 21) though as have regional series races then.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ok for those interested - 10, 16 and 17 June look like good candidates? I'll drop Richard an email. MK used to have tele boots and skis, I'm not sure whether that's still the case but regardless Richard has his own stock of boots and demo skis. I probably won't be joining the class but I'll be due a snow fix by about then so would come along.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
fatbob, all three dates work for me. And i am sure we will all need equiment rentals..
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
fatbob, As long as I have a bit of notice on final dates. They are good too. I am a total Tele beginner.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
fatbob, 10th & 16th work for me as well. 17th is the Bassingbourn ERSA race so family Nick W are all committed (certifiable?) that day.
As with the others, I have no kit or experience, just dodgy knees (oh and a beard!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Nick W wrote: |
fatbob, 10th & 16th work for me as well. 17th is the Bassingbourn ERSA race so family Nick W are all committed (certifiable?) that day.
As with the others, I have no kit or experience, just dodgy knees (oh and a beard!) |
If you've a peruvian style hat with a tassle as well and a really battered old goretex jacket that's practically all the kit you need. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
10 or 16 still is good to me and my knackered knees. ( i will have to find my old duct taped gloves and battered jacket to fit in)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
fatbob, Jacket's no problem; I've still got an Event (remember them?) one from 1985 in regular use. Daft hats mostly replaced by a race helmet and chin guard though (don't worry, I'll find something more suitable for the day)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Nick W,
| Quote: |
I've still got an Event (remember them?) one
|
Good gear in it's day, dare I say I had an Event one piece suit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
now cant make the 10th so 16th of june is good for me
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
skimottaret, with respect to knees I feel that telemark is less stressful than alpine skiing as we ski with dynamic flexion about the hip, knee, ankle joint and toe baffle, creating a smoother and more mellow ride on the knee joint. Whilst skiing alpine in high performance boots provides greater fore/aft and lateral rigidty being transferred directly to the knee.
My knees are pretty mashed; this led me to take up snowboarding after years of alpine. To refreshen the challenge and for the greater touring advantage I took up telemark and will not go back to the others full time for a good 30 moreyears! However, I find after a good hard ski period my knee will swell some what; but it does this whether I ski, board or tele... but I am not about to take up swimming instead!!
Diversifying into different alpine sports will always improve our performance, feel and understanding of the others IMO. It's all the same thing, just altered stances and timing of movements. In my mind there is nothing sweeter than admiring anyone ripping well and leaving trenches behind them on the mountain or taking great lines regardless of the equipment they are on - but when a skier kills it with grace and power on tele's I feel is a pretty special thing.
Snowboarding with well set up stance angles and width for your bio-mechanics is very safe on the knees as there are fewer cutting movements - knee stress is only introduced when moving into larger jumps... or perhaps running into something stationary! However, falling on a snowboard is more like tripping over so can lead to some pretty good whiplash type injuries and breaks, but hey, it's part of the journey right? The other aspect is boarding will teach you to weight both feet evenly, and a toe side turn with alpine or carving type angles (eg: 45 degrees, 40 degrees) is in essence a telemark turn in mid phase. Just with out poles to use as rudders! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
it looks as though all the tele skiers recon it isnt hard on the knees and with my other injuries (back, whiplash, collar bone) my spine is permanently knackered and snowboard falls hurt too for me, so tele is definately in my future....
again i just love all the narrative regarding TELE
| Quote: |
nothing sweeter than admiring anyone ripping well and leaving trenches behind them on the mountain or taking great lines regardless of the equipment they are on - but when a skier kills it with grace and power on tele's I feel is a pretty special thing.
|
keep the motivation coming, as i view trying to learn tele as years of coming to grips with an enjoyable new skill while still having loads to learn on alpine
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| getoutsideandplay wrote: |
| skimottaret, Diversifying into different alpine sports will always improve our performance, feel and understanding of the others IMO. It's all the same thing, just altered stances and timing of movements. |
Thanks for sharing the great insight into the different snow gliding techniques!
I tried snowboarding for a little while and quickly realizing the same. Although I no longer board (no time for too many ways to slide), I admir the good boarders when I see one on the slope.
| Quote: |
| with respect to knees I feel that telemark is less stressful than alpine skiing as we ski with dynamic flexion about the hip, knee, ankle joint and toe baffle, creating a smoother and more mellow ride on the knee joint. Whilst skiing alpine in high performance boots provides greater fore/aft and lateral rigidty being transferred directly to the knee. |
I do quite a bit of nordic skiing. You're absolutely right. Fixing the ankle will simply put ALL the load onto the knee joint. So it's so surprise alpine skiing is no much harder on the knee. The benefit, of course, it makes high speed descend more stable by taking the weak and flappy ankle out of the system!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I need to learn a second discipline and it will be tele or snowboarding
|
skimottaret,
Have fun ! Remember you can use your local dryslope for practise (see comments about knee pads above) - want some skis ?
This one is old - but I like it. 'Alpine skiers make parallel turns 'cos they have too, Tele skiers do parallel turns because they can'
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Looks like we've got a real tele stoke thread going here & a number of people who dabble/have dabbled in 3 disciplines. Parlor, I'm sure is a former boarder turned skier who is almost now fulltime tele, I'm much lower down that progression curve but can see the logic. It is indeed fine to see a good tele skier killing it particulalry in seriously technical terrain and it is so cool to do a kick glide past an alpine skier poling it on the flat.
For the record I've snowboarded with torn calf muscle when I couldn't even walk (well it was a powder day )
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Can't resist another old quote
| Quote: |
Telemarkers :- what snowboarders want to be when they grow up |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
It will be a bit harder to ski tho' 
