 Poster: A snowHead
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| petemillis wrote: |
| When doing short turns the hip has to rotate to allow the angulation |
Does it rotate into the turn or to the outside? I'm having trouble visualising this (it might happen instinctively for me, but then again I'm hopeless at short radius turns).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| petemillis wrote: |
| When doing short turns the hip has to rotate to allow the angulation |
Does it rotate into the turn or to the outside? I'm having trouble visualising this (it might happen instinctively for me, but then again I'm hopeless at short radius turns). |
To the outside - so your man parts are directed more toward the outside of the turn and your bum toward the inside. But in the short turns your body is still facing and moving straight down the fall-line - it's more that the hip rotation is outwards RELATIVE to the turn itself. And it probably is instinctive as you need the movement in order to angulate the hips.
If you try to rotate the hips the wrong way (i.e. man part into the turn and bum out) you'll find that your body locks, and tries to twist your legs around and the outside knee bends more - it's a totally unnatural feeling.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| petemillis wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| petemillis wrote: |
| When doing short turns the hip has to rotate to allow the angulation |
Does it rotate into the turn or to the outside? I'm having trouble visualising this (it might happen instinctively for me, but then again I'm hopeless at short radius turns). |
To the outside |
OK, how much rotation are we talking about? Am I rotating my hips in this photo?
It's not a short radius turn, but compared to other photos from this sequence my hips seem to be pointing in a slightly different direction to my trajectory.
A lesson I had a couple of weeks ago looked at my short radius turns and I was told to focus on leg rotation and to try to keep my upper body (including my hips?) as still as possible.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Agenterre, I've only been across the pond once - 20 years ago, and I'm by no means a particularly good skier. But I just find I can emulate what someone is doing easier if I know some of how they're doing. It helps me with all that visualising malarkey - which I used to think was BS until I started riding off-road bikes and found that it was easier tackling climbs, rutts, drop offs, table-tops and all that sort of thing after I'd worked it out and ridden it in my head.
It is simple though if you stand there and get a feel for different body movements. It's putting it into words that can make things seem complicated - which is why I like FastMan's "Inside Leg Extension" and "Outside Leg Relaxation" as they're so straightforward and easy to visualise. These are things that can help my OH understand - rather than the sort of stuff some bloke tried to explain to her last year that left her still struggling to snowplough down the fall-line.
Obviously, putting things into words isn't for everyone - and I know if I spent more time doing than thinking then my stoopid PhD would have been done long ago!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Agenterre, I don't understand all this either - and I don't want to - KISS
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| Quote: |
and I don't want to - KISS
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But you have to, it's Valentine's Day! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, Charlotte, bet you do really  After all, they're just the movements that we make naturally in everyday life when walking, running, lifting, turning, etc without even thinking about it. It's when trying to describe such movements that things sound complicated - imagine, for instance, putting into writing the movements you need to make to get out of bed, or walk down the road, jog across a slope and so on. I agree though - KISS - which is why "phantom thingummyjigs", for example, as an expression to describe something really simple seems odd.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| FastMan, thanks for that, a nice explanation of what happens in the transition linking one carved turn to another IMO. However just to complicate things further, in the short radius carved turns that I do, I don't think that I make quite the same movements with my legs and body. Would you agree? |
You're welcome, Kramer, I'm glad it was understandable to you.
It's always difficult trying to take multi elemental movement patterns that look simple when executed on snow, and explain in the restrictive environment of the written word how that simplicity of movement comes to be. As Agenterre and easiski are quick to point out, it's not a method of communication and teaching that will reach all, but it's all we have to work with in this environment, so we do our best and can only hope our efforts do successfully reach at least a portion of the readers. Thanks for the confirmation.
I haven't actually seen you make short radius turns, but in reading a later post of yours it sounds as though in short turns you are employing a different transition from that which you use in long radius turns. Your short turn transitions sound more like a retraction of both legs, combined with rebound that deflects the Center of Mass across the skis, and a temporary disconnect of ski/snow pressure.
That type of transition typically involves a restoration of ski/snow pressured engagement after the CM has traveled across the feet (or skis have passed under the CM) and the skis have been tipped to their opposite edges. It's also common for the skis to be redirected (turned in the direction of the new turn) during their period of lightness, though it's not mandatory. That redirection is called a PIVOT, and it can be minor or extreme in the amount of redirection.
This type of transition is a perfectly legitimate option to use, but realize it's not your only option. The retracted pivot transition is very prevalent in World Cup slalom because the amount of turn racers must make, and the importance of running a straight line, does not lend well to the use of arc to arc (non pivoted) transitions. This is why I used the freeskiing example of Grandi (first seed World Cup racer) in my video link. In the freeski environment the ski/snow disconnecting needed to execute a pivot is not as necessary, so WC racers such as Grandi will instead display a connected arc to arc transition more functional for freeskiing. Makes for a better technical model for recreational skiers to emulate.
ILE (inside leg extension) transitions are ideally suited to continuously connected arc to arc transitions in both Slalom and Giant Slalom type turns. If you go back to the link I provided and go to the video of Guay doing freeskiing GS turns you will see the striking similarity of the ILE transition both he and Grandi (in slalom) are using. The difference in their turn shapes will come in the sidecut of the skis they're riding, combined with the speed and degree to which they develop edge angle once the transition is completed.
One more thing to think about: the reason ILE is so proficient at producing continuous ski to snow contact through the transition. Rebound is primarily an outside ski phenomenon. Because the outside ski typically harbors most of the weight during a turn, it is the old outside ski that will be most bent, and therefore deliver most of the rebound kick when released at the end of the turn. By extending the old inside leg as a first move, the old outside leg is instantly relieved of it's load, and the rebound of the old outside ski can be absorbed into a relaxed old outside leg. In this manner, the rebound is granted little effect on the CM, and the old inside ski can maintain it's pressured contact with the snow all the way through its roll over to its new edge, and engagement of the new turn. This continuous contact through the transition provides an acute feel of edge development and new turn initiation on the new outside ski that must be experienced to be appreciated.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| petemillis wrote: |
Re the Schlopy drill - I have a thought that the "hand on hip" part might cause problems for some, in that the pushing part could cause rigidity in the upper body as they may attempt to push the hip sideways, rather than feel and encourage the rotation. By just letting the outside arm drop, and lifting the inside arm forwards, then the hip movement is left as natural rotation. By forgetting the hand on hip part then the movement can be speeded up and accentuated making the drill more suitable, perhaps, for Kramer's short radius turns. Also, if that forward arm is allowed to swing down and back towards the new outside foot, rather than have to find it's way back to the hip, the motion is again more natural and can help with faster and smooth ship rotation.
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Yes, Pete, the rotational issue is a legitimate concern. The inside hand and arm held high and driven forward are intended to keep the shoulders level (create hip angulation/flexion) and counter the body to the skis, but if a students is having particular trouble with not being able to create a countered stance, eliminating the outside hand push and focusing on the inside arm action could be a good way to address the problem. As coaches, we need to have an assortment of methods to skin the cat.
Another drill for addressing rotational issues is to put both hands on the hips, and use the hands to counter the hips during the transition. This actually works very well to direct student focus to rotational skills. Once a feel is developed for creating counter, you can move back to the Schlopy/teapot in it's pure form, which will also build in the idea of moving the CM laterally into the turn while the body counters.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Agenterre wrote: |
Jeez -- 'initiation of external forces', 
I'd never have started skiing if I thought it this difficult ! |
Agenterre, sorry for the barrage of terms.
External forces are the forces that act on us as we turn. It's the centrifugal force that feels like it's trying to toss us over our skis when we're making a sharp, high speed turn. The same forces that require us to lean in when we turn on a bike, or tip us when we go around a turn in a car.
In skiing we move inside with our body and resist in our legs as we turn so these forces cannot have their way with us. If at the end of the turn we can remove our resistance to these forces in a controlled manner, we can use them to move our bodies across our skis and into the new turn. In essence, we employ these forces to do the work of moving our bodies across our skis for us. This is what ILE and OLR do. Very efficient and relatively effortless way of moving from turn to turn.
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FastMan, once again a good explanation.
When I'm working the skis really hard to do really short turns though, I doesn't feel as if there is much pivoting going on at all, just a lateral motion of my legs underneath my body, bouncing from one set of edges to another, with very little steering of the skis underneath my body.
Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with your description of normal short radius turns which go something like, edge skis, decamber, carve round, rebound, retract legs and move transversely under the body whilst steering the skis, set skis on their opposite edges, and repeat.
These are something that I started working on with Euan (of EoSB fame) this year, and are short radius turns which involve much more time carving, and (it seems to me) much less time steering the ski underneath my body.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, You calling me a pedant
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I, for one, love all this stuff.
The problem is, is that the only way I can get my head around a lot of what is being explained is by acting the movements out ... which results in me getting some very odd looks in the office 
Good job, I'm the boss, and can sack 'em if they say anything too nasty  
To be serious though, personally I find the simple drills / explanations the most helpful, and that's probably why Mr Harb does well, and sells lots of books. His 'phantom move' is a very straight-forward concept, and whilst he might be mis-interpreting the mechanics of the move - it works for a lot of people, and I gues that's the important thing (isn't it?).
(Sits ... waiting to be shot down....)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Everyone! Disaster...
Was watching the news the other day and never mind the knife amnesty there is a SLIPPER AMNESTY!!!
Just think how your carving round the kithen could suffer...
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FAQ
, just find some of the rhetoric a tad OTT , just an opinion.
Click on my sig! I don't believe in making simple things complicated - sorry.