 Poster: A snowHead
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troll alert !!!
Don't rise to it 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ray Zorro, Hmmmmm, not so sure.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Whitegold, aren't you mixing up coaching racers and teaching once a year holidaymakers a bit?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ray Zorro, Yes, but altough quoting British ski instructors the original post goes on about "rip off Britain", and seems more of a general dig. surely there is room for reasoned debate on this topic 
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Ray Zorro, I think you're right, but since I have the time and nothing more pressing to do at the moment  ....
| Whitegold wrote: |
| Come on, guys, you are going to have to start listening to alternative opinions. |
Well, we are listening...., several people have also responded.
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Getting stressed out at the first sign of a challenging viewpoint is rather narrow-minded, some might say.
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And accusations of 'stressing out' is the first sign of trolling, some might say
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You do not always have to agree with my stance, but going all redfaced or frothy about it doesn't do you any favors.
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My face isn't red (well no more than usual) and I haven't been 'frothy' since the last time I drank a Cresta thanks
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Some of you do a great job of arguing back. But please don't get too excited. It is only a Web forum, after all.
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So that's four sentences devoted to patronising wind up material then. 
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Anyway, back to the above point. I stand by my comments.
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which stated that anything British is rubbish and overpriced. Not the most 'reasoned' line of argument I've read today
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Consumers often make buying-decisions based on perception. On balance, the perception, in my opinion, is that Brit schools are overpriced. Some of the previous postings clearly reflect that perception among punters.
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Agreed, and most people here were discussing reasons/justification for this perception in rather more depth than you managed.
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Further, if the Brit school system is so outstandingly good, where are all their outputs in the form of Gold Medalists and World Champions? (And I mean proper ones, not someone who came top for a madeup championship in the backend of nowhere). |
As marc gledhill observed, the succes or lack of it among British ski racers has no relevance to the quality, competency or value for money offered by British ski instructors to holidaymakers.
So apart from wind ups and irrelevancies do you have anything useful to contribute? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I was being facetious when I referred to £400 as beer money. I can still see little justification for that amount of difference in price.
I cannot easily be convinced that the British Instructors are any better at instructing than locals.
I cannot easily be convinced that the ESF instructors inability to speak perfect english is an issue worth £400. Especially as my experiences have included instructors that speak English related to the subject matter (ie skiing) perfectly adequately.
Judging by the price of ski holidays and equipment generally and the prices I can get by booking direct - I agree largely with Whitegold.
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Frosty the Snowman, Always a danger when responding to wind-ups, but WTF, it beats focussing on work! 
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brian
brian
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I think there's actually 2 separate issues going on here:
ESF - potentially big classes, at least anecdotal reports of some old schoolers still digging in, poor customer service etc.
vs
Smaller schools or independent instructors - small classes, generally more reliably good vibe.
and
"British" marketed ski schools
vs
French or nationality-agnostic schools
imo, for the first I'd go with the smaller schools where possible and for the second I don't really care but (imo) there's no doubt that the likes of BASS are taking rich pickings from Brits who are either too myopic or xenophobic to shop around.
Any instructor getting the BASI 1 (or whatever they call it now) or the equivalent European qualification nowadays is going to be a damn fine skier and instructor.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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All good points - not to the tune of what is essentially a 100% mark up though..
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Don't forget the extra day too.
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You know it makes sense.
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When I had lessons in Canada I found them, in general, significantly better than the lessons I'd had previously in Europe, all from non-English instructors. Some of these had been very good (Courmayeur and St Anton) and some a lot of fun (Meribel) but overall, Canada knocked spots off them. My one experience of Brit instruction in Europe was on a par with Canada. My theory is that your average Brit and Canadian instructor learned to ski within their memory, and probably received tuition of the type they are giving you; they can remember not being able to ski. Your average Euro ski instructor probably absorbed skiing with their mother's milk and has no idea of what it's like not to be able to ski. The attitude seemed to be 'you lot are never going to be much good at this, so you might as well have a bit of a laugh'. Add to that the fact that in those days, the local ski school had a monopoly (or so it seemed), and it's not surprising that lessons lacked something. I'm sure that things have improved, but I suspect that a bit of the old attitiude prevails.
I'd consider paying a decent premium for lessons from a Brit school which came with recommendations from eg fellow snowHeads. The justification for the higher cost is presumably market forces; they can command higher prices because more people want their services.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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OK, I accept some of those points.
However, this is the quandry..
You can have good and bad experiences with all sorts of types shapes and sizes of instructor - whomever and wherever they came from. That's a people thing and not the school at all.
Isnt it?
Remember, I learnt my trade from people that made you run up mountains or do 20 push-ups for messing lessons up.
Also, I am not at all convinced with the argument regarding large class sizes.
5x 1 hour lessons for 8 from a brit instructor
versus
6x 2 hour lessons for 12 from a french instructor for half the money.
You could also argue that you could have twice as many lessons for the same money so you could argue it is in fact:
5x 1 hour lessons for 8 from a brit instructor
versus
12x 2 hour lessons for 12 from a french instructor
It is market forces. It is also the desire of brits generally to ape each other of as much ££ as they can.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
troll alert !!!
Don't rise to it |
That's a tad unfair, Ray !
Many of us use generalisations when making points - in this case Whitegold was using the 'Rip-Off Britain' reference that we all see/use and is prevalent in the UK media. I totally understand why easiski would take umbrage on on behalf of herself and others - why shouldn't she ? She has enough personal commendations and her prices are totally different (cheaper) to those alluded to in the original post.
To return to the original point; I was very disappointed with BASS Les Gets - the reasons why have been explained here before and I have explained to others by PM why I hold some of the views as to 'why' I consider them poor value.
As others know I know 360 International Les Gets/Samoens quite well ( as people as well as ski instructors). They have some really good folks ( I have had instruction from about 5/6?? of them).
My suggestions for who to ask for :-
For very young kids in private lessons : Raphael ( he loves kids and has the patience - don't let his hair put you off)
The instructor his peers rate best technically and as a teacher : Jerome Show
The instructor who is daft as a brush and great fun ( and competent) : Jerome Bron ( aka JB ( as in JayBay)) - beware I consider him a friend even if his Dad is my age !
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 12-12-06 15:40; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In another thread, people refused to believe that I got an apartment in Les Gets for 500 euros. What are you on about? I've never had to pay so much! Normally get it cheaper - putting the expense down to it being Christmas for my first trip of the year.
Anyone thinking that is 500 euros for a self catering apartment for 5 in Les Gets is getting ripped off by brits too..
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Agenterre wrote: |
| Ray Zorro wrote: |
troll alert !!!
Don't rise to it |
That's a tad unfair, Ray !
Many of us use generalisations when making points - in this case Whitegold was using the 'Rip-Off Britain' reference that we all see/use and is prevalent in the UK media. I totally understand why easiski would take umbrage on on behalf of herself and others - why shouldn't she ? She has enough personal commendations and her prices are totally different (cheaper) to those alluded to in the original post.
To return to the original point; I was very disappointed with BASS Les Gets - the reasons why have been explained here before and I have explained to others by PM why I hold some of the views as to 'why' I consider them poor value.
As others know I know 360 International Les Gets/Samoens quite well ( as people as well as ski instructors). They have some really good folks ( I have had instruction from about 5/6?? of them).
My suggestions for who to ask for :-
For very young kids in private lessons : Raphael ( he loves kids and has the patience - don't let his hair put you off)
The instructor his peers rate best technically and as a teacher : Jerome Show
The instructor who is daft as a brush and great fun ( and competent) : Jerome B ( aka JB ( as in JayBay)) - beware I consider him a friend even if his Dad is my age ! |
OK< I'm going to check this out too..
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Agenterre, How do the Frenchies understand you? or ist it a Gallic thing
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Frosty the Snowman, In common with the rest of the Known World I have found that they do not always understand me.
Conversely they don't seem to have any more problems than you lot ....
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professorpool, I'm not quite sure what your point is. In this case, British lessons are pricier than Euro lessons. Some possible resons have been put forward; if you don't believe them or don't think that they justify the premium, go for the Euro lessons.
I would definitely go for an instructor for whom you've had a recommendation; as you say, there will be good and bad instructors in all schools, of whatever nationality.
As for the cost of apartments and so on, do you have access to cheaper accomodation than the generality of us? If so, do share. If not, I imagine that any of us can get an apartment in Les Gets for €500. Some (not me) will prefer to use a TO, for which they will pay a premium, and why shouldn't they? 'It is the duty of the wealthy man to give employment to the artisan.' and all that (I accept that describing TO 'phone fodder as 'artisans' is stretching it a bit).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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"The word 'British' is a byword for 'ripoff'. Almost anything made or owned by Brits will be overpriced and / or shoddy." this is the offensive remark.
It is a blanket statement inferring that the value for money received is poor and the quality is poor in almost all cases. I agree - If Whitegold is not trolling then s/he is doing a good imitation. OTOH s/he has clearly no experience of the subject.
Professorpool Personally I would go with the recommendation you have. And yes - for adults the difference between 8 or 12 in a class is huge. For children it probably matters less. It is impossible to coach 12 people at once. Barely possible with 8, definitely possible with 6 or fewer. Instruction as opposed to personal coaching doesn't seem to suit many people, and so they learn far less. Therefore they get less value for money. There is no reason why a french instructor using a second language should not be able to explain the same thing in more than one way - I can in French.  Many of our local instructors (ESF) speak excellent english.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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OK I'm not keeping up with who people are on here..
Are some of you instrcutors and reps?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Whitegold, BASS do charge more, and I think you are right about preception.
My daugther had BASS lessons last year and did very well in a small group of 6 (she was 5 years old at the time). For her the language was the main issue. She had struggled in ESF the year before in a class of 15+.
I think class size and language seem to be the most important criteria and BASS do well on this for us English.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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professorpool, Pro ski teachers on Snowheads are (AFAIK) me, ski, dunk, yoda, Veeeight, ssh, Backtomasters, not to mention a fair few others who have taken ski teching courses/exams but do not work in the business. I'm sorry if I've missed anyone - I'm sure I have, this is just off the top of my head. I think there are one or two reps too, but they tend to change from year to year. there are a good number of Snowheads who have chalet businesses in the alps as well.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Skiday teaches in Austria.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, Martin Bell!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| professorpool wrote: |
...
Also, I am not at all convinced with the argument regarding large class sizes.
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In a large class the kids at the back will not physically hear what the instructor asks them to do.
In a large class when skiing, the kids at the back will do what the kids in front of them did, not do what the instructor asked them to do.
If the kids can't understand the instructor (poor English or heavy accent) they will give up trying to understand him/her.
OK, maybe not all kids, but it was certainly my experience (or the experience of 2 of my daughters). I wouldn't do it that way again, even though it was theoretically a good ski school. They learned precious little that week and one was almost completely put off lessons (and skiing) and it was only the promise of no lessons the following year that meant she would go at all.
Those lessons were a complete waste of money because of the size of the group and the instructor's poor English.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ray Zorro, Absolutely. Even 6 in a group is pushing it IMO. Unless you can see (and hear, and understand) the instructor, you are not going to progress much more than if you just ski along on your own. Small groups = Good, Big groups = waste of money.
Cost (as usual) is not the whole picture, VALUE is what counts. (IMHO) 
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Agenterre, laundryman, I knew I'd missed out at least one VERY IMPORTANT PERSON.  I'm also thinking now about the likes of CEM and SMALLZOOKEEPER who are ski pros of another sort, and Davidoff ditto ... there are lots of us actually.
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easiski, and LARGEZOOKEEPER
there's just to many to list really
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boredsurfin, Exactly, so why should obviously ignorant amateurs be in a position to rubbish us without even knowing us, or anything about the subject??? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| professorpool wrote: |
...
Also, I am not at all convinced with the argument regarding large class sizes.
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In a large class the kids at the back will not physically hear what the instructor asks them to do.
In a large class when skiing, the kids at the back will do what the kids in front of them did, not do what the instructor asked them to do.
If the kids can't understand the instructor (poor English or heavy accent) they will give up trying to understand him/her.
OK, maybe not all kids, but it was certainly my experience (or the experience of 2 of my daughters). I wouldn't do it that way again, even though it was theoretically a good ski school. They learned precious little that week and one was almost completely put off lessons (and skiing) and it was only the promise of no lessons the following year that meant she would go at all.
Those lessons were a complete waste of money because of the size of the group and the instructor's poor English. |
Are you talking from experience?
I have no memory of anything like this any time I have ever been skiing nor have I wtinessed this at any time ever.
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professorpool,
I think Brian has summed things up very well.
My children have generally enjoyed most ski schools they have been to including ESF. None of the classes they have been in though have been vey large and I would not want to put them in a very large class. I do have friends who discovered their young daughter in tears at the side of the piste with the class nowhere to be seen this was with the ESF and I am pretty sure class size is more likely to result in missing kids. At peak holiday times I have seen some very large ESF classes.
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FAQ
. But don't let me stop you 
