 Poster: A snowHead
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I agree with a previous comment that the insurance company may not pay out if you have an accident and do not have the appropriate tyres/chains
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This is a rather drastic suggestion. There are many circumstances in which the driver/owner of the vehicle may be at fault and cause injury or damage but I am not aware of arguments that an insurer "would not pay out" in such circumstances. After all, almost all accidents are a result of somebody or other not paying attention, or having failed to take some precaution (such as slowing down if a road surface is slippery, or mounting snow chains). The question of who was at fault could obviously be an issue in arguments about which company pays what, or in any civil or criminal prosecution, but that is a rather different matter. Could somebody a bit more expert on car insurance matters please comment on this before people panic?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| nuttyprofessor wrote: |
| I also read that in Switzerland you could be sued if you caused an accident due to not having winter tyres |
I imagine that you can be sued if you cause an accident, full stop. If you don't have the appropriate tyre/chain stuff, you're probably more likely to be held more responsible than if you do.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am no expert in car insurance, but I think my policy has some blurb about the vehicle meeting current legal standards, which I guess in relevant countries / regions would include snow tyres / chains.
I don't have it with me though so can't check.
Anybody else know?
D
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same in germany and scaninavia too i think, in as much as they usually have enforced periods when cars should be on winter rubber and any accident involving a car not shod in them is (i think) automatically blamed. I'm not sure how this would affect a car from a visiting nation though, surely it wouldn't be the case....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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feefee, In 17 winter here I've never used them. I never even had them until last year - just in time for my car to go toes up! huh!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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In Utah they won't let you drive upto the resorts unless you have either snow chains or a 4wd/awd with snow/winter tyres.
I though the same would apply to Europe, as a 4wd/awd with snow tyres is going to be better than a fwd/rwd vehicle with snow chains. I don't see the reason why a fwd/awd (toyota landcruiser) would need snow chains if they have suitable winter tyres, as it is going to be much better in snow & ice than a citroen saxo with chains.
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| feefee wrote: |
| After consulting the AA guide!! We are going to France (vaujany) by the way! it seems that a triangle is recommended not compulsory, first aid kit is optional, reflective jacket n/a! compulsory items are, reg doc, ins, gb sticker, light thingy's, and daytime headlights (with thingy's)! |
If you hire a car in France, will the car be supplied with all the above. In Geneva (Swiss and French sides) the cars I've hired were supplied with winter tyres and chains but I've never had any spare bulbs or hi-vis jackets. Should the car hire companies be providing these extras if they are legal requirements?
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Hywel, I've been getting my info from the motorhomes forums and I have to carry hi-vis jackets for driver (compulsory) and all passengers (optional but recommended) it might be a matter of vehicle size . . . dunno till I dig deeper. But anyway, if you're going to be faffing around the wheelarches with chains in the mid winter and you need to be as visible as possible. Bulbs, fuses and spare driving glasses are a definite for France as I'm talking from experience and an on-the-spot fine 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I thought it was just Austria and Italy where the hi-vis jacket is a legal requirement. I'm sure it's not here
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If you don't have the appropriate tyre/chain stuff, you're probably more likely to be held more responsible than if you do.
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Absolutely, other things being equal, but that is quite different from saying that an insurance company "would not pay up". They pay up first, then sort out who's to blame, as I understand it. After all, drivers under the influence cause untold mayhem and misery, and are unquestionably breaking the law. But I have never heard it suggested that if you are maimed and your vehicle damaged by an adequately insured drunk driver his insurance company would refuse to "pay up" because their insured had acted recklessly. They might, of course, decline to cover him subsequently, or charge a higher premium. And he might be sent to prison for 10 years because of criminal liability. But surely, if insurance companies declined to pay up on the basis that their insured was ill-equipped, reckless or negligent the whole system would collapse?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If you hire a car in France, will the car be supplied with all the above.
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Probably not. And the AA talk a load of old rubbish - according to the Gendarmerie, warning triangles are obligatory, but GB stickers haven't been required for years. I note that the AA sell said stickers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Lizzard, - The AA says stickers but I think modern number plates displaying the GB is acceptable, I assume if its not on your number plate then a sticker is compulsory. As for hi-viz jackets according to the AA they N/A! we will take them anyway, don't want hubby to be squashed whilst fitting snow chains in all that snow that IS coming!!!!!!!!! spare driving glasses are not mentioned in the AA list though?
As for insurance its best to speak to your own insurance provider and ask them to list exactly what they require regarding you cover!
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feefee, glasses a definate (or was 7 years ago when I was stopped) it's only if you need them for driving but the copper was very insistent as well as docs and spares . . . we were pulled over for a failed back light.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think modern number plates displaying the GB is acceptable
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Yes, definitely.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Been through all my bits and pieces (which mostly just say "Europe") and as far as I can tell for France only. . . GB plate or sticker, bulbs (all external lights) and the tools required to fit them, documents (vehicle and driver/s) spare glasses, beam deflectors and NO speed detectors . . . drivers have been arrested and cars impounded. Hi-Vis jackets are required for drivers of vehicles over 3.5 tonne and more than 8 passengers but as far as I can tell this applies only to commercial vehicles and motorhomes. Chains if you're heading for the mountains (winter tyres are not mandatory and many are speed regulated so if you fit snow tyres, make sure that they are not just the right size for your vehicle, you must ensure that they are approved fitment by both the car and tyre manufacturer.
Also, Kermit alcohol limits are lower than the UK . . . just DON'T
To be honest, it's probably best to just equip yourself for general European travel and include triangle, first aid kit, tow rope and fire extinguisher . . . . and ground sheet . . . and shovel . . . and emergency blankets . . .and marigolds . . . . head torch . . . . axle stands . . . compressor . . . Is this why we should hire skis rather than buy our own?
Before you head out . . . (things learnt from experience and apocryphal tales):
Silicon, rubber door seal cleaner will stop your doors and tailgate from being frozen shut as will a good spray with either a Water Dispersant or low temp lubricant into your locks.
A battery's life-time guarantee is not YOUR lifetime . . . get it checked and also your alternator output.
Exhaust systems know exactly how far it is to the nearest replacement.
A spare windshield wiper blade is worth more than an MOT.
Vodka is better in the windscreen washer bottle than your stomach . . . but Jack Daniels will do at a pinch . . . pack a bottle of prepared fluid to top up or just cry every time you hit the wash button . . . and get a very strange response from the toll booth attendant.
Cheap rubber floormats don't just keep your trim clean they can be used for lots of things both inside and outside the car.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Vodka is better in the windscreen washer bottle than your stomach
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I assume you're talking Eristoff here, and not Stolichnaya.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I just wanted to emphasise what others have been saying on this thread - snowchains or winter tyres are a must. this weekend I went skiing at Mt Bachelor in central Oregon: On saturday there were two 4x4's that had lost control and turned over on their backs, and today there was another 4x4 that had rolled over and needed the fire service to cut the front passenger out. thankfully everyone looked unharmed but it goes to show that just because you've got 4 wheel drive doesn't make you invincible. the road was snow covered but ploughed and gritted/sanded and without any tight turns.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Tirol wrote: |
| I just wanted to emphasise what others have been saying on this thread - snowchains or winter tyres are a must. this weekend I went skiing at Mt Bachelor in central Oregon: On saturday there were two 4x4's that had lost control and turned over on their backs, and today there was another 4x4 that had rolled over and needed the fire service to cut the front passenger out. thankfully everyone looked unharmed but it goes to show that just because you've got 4 wheel drive doesn't make you invincible. the road was snow covered but ploughed and gritted/sanded and without any tight turns. |
I'd echo this -seen plenty of 4x4s in the ditch in N America - there seems to a mentality that if it has 4wd it will be ok - I'd bet on a Saxo with snow tyres over an "all weather" shod 4x4 most times.
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fatbob, it may be a US thing. I remember driving from Denver to Aspen in an ordinary (non 4x4) car in tricky but not very bad conditions. I managed not to slide at all, not so as you'd notice, but the freeway was full of 4x4s pirouetting about like Darcey Bussell on speed. There was no need for it all, but they seemed unable to comprehend that the surface was different from ususal. They were almost all pick ups, so it may be IQ related, of course.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You definately don't need chains this year if you are going with easy jet.
Boom Boom!
(Sorry, I couldnt resist..)
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Rutschen, This looks as if drivers are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Using summer tyres could be regarded as negligent in cold winter conditions
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| The cold time of year requires winter tyres and a weather appropriate driving style. Those that don't take reasonable precautions must, in the event of an accident, expect reduced coverage (payout). |
but
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| Oh and for those of you who do fit them and come over at the moment... remember that in the wet and above 7C they have as much grip as a pair of Busty Bulgarian Baby-Oil Wrestling Babes ie. don't work nearly as well as summer tyres |
implies that using winter tyres on the way to the mountains where these "wet and above 7C" conditions are more likely than not is equally negligent unless, of course, the insurance companies expect drivers to carry a spare set of tyres with them . 
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| Rutschen wrote: |
Oh and for those of you who do fit them and come over at the moment... remember that in the wet and above 7C they have as much grip as a pair of Busty Bulgarian Baby-Oil Wrestling Babes ie. don't work nearly as well as summer tyres... so keep the speed down on the mountain bends  |
Not entirely sure this is true - the Michelins I used to have had a farirly regular block tread pattern for dispersing water just with lots of micro "sipes" for gripping on snow and ice. They were softer compound too so would obviously wear faster in extended warm tarmac use but I never noticed a loss of grip when it got warm.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob, I agree, my Michelin Alpins have no trouble at all in those conditions.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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i ran my pirelli 210 snowsports up to the end of July as they were almost at the end of their life and they were fine and grippy enough in hot temperatures. Actually they are back on the car currently until i get the new rubber fitted in the next few days... the grip off them with 3mm tread versus a new set of summer tyres is still seemingly better 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Glad to hear that skinutter, as we've just fitted Pirelli 210 Sottozero for our trip to the alps... 
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it was a toss-up between those and the Nokian WR, in the end i decided to go with the WR's so I'll let you know how they fare.
Apparently the Nokians are great on packed snow and ice which the pirellis struggled with at the end of their useful life, but fresh on the 210's were awesome and I'm interested to see how the WR's compare.
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You know it makes sense.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Rutschen wrote: |
Oh and for those of you who do fit them and come over at the moment... remember that in the wet and above 7C they have as much grip as a pair of Busty Bulgarian Baby-Oil Wrestling Babes ie. don't work nearly as well as summer tyres... so keep the speed down on the mountain bends |
Not entirely sure this is true - the Michelins I used to have had a farirly regular block tread pattern for dispersing water just with lots of micro "sipes" for gripping on snow and ice. They were softer compound too so would obviously wear faster in extended warm tarmac use but I never noticed a loss of grip when it got warm. |
Could be something to do with not driving cars with less than 350BHP but despite the brands I've tried there is a major difference. The first rain after they go on is always an 'ooops can't enter the motorway that fast' moment... I agree if you don't push them hard you'll never notice.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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fatbob, I wouldn't blame the 4x4 cars but the drivers in the US. As I see a large number of people on the road in Utah who shouldn't be allowed to drive.
I've seen people driving at night without lights, weaving across lanes. It is not surprising that the driving is so bad when you are given the answer book when you take the written test and still some fail and the practical driving test is done in a car park. An example of this was illustrated in 60 minutes (US version of panorama) had a programme about "dangerous" Audi manual cars accelerating when the driver pressed the break pedal, although this wasn't a problem in other countries that Audi sold the same model. It was because most Americans can't drive a manual car (you can pass a test in an automatic and drive a manual without any restrictions). The programme didn't mention that Audi didn't have the problem in any other country and labelled Audi manual cars to be highly dangerous.
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Poster: A snowHead
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oops, it should read brake not break. Sorry about that. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidb wrote: |
fatbob, I wouldn't blame the 4x4 cars but the drivers in the US. As I see a large number of people on the road in Utah who shouldn't be allowed to drive.
I've seen people driving at night without lights, weaving across lanes. It is not surprising that the driving is so bad when you are given the answer book when you take the written test and still some fail and the practical driving test is done in a car park. An example of this was illustrated in 60 minutes (US version of panorama) had a programme about "dangerous" Audi manual cars accelerating when the driver pressed the break pedal, although this wasn't a problem in other countries that Audi sold the same model. It was because most Americans can't drive a manual car (you can pass a test in an automatic and drive a manual without any restrictions). The programme didn't mention that Audi didn't have the problem in any other country and labelled Audi manual cars to be highly dangerous. |
On a similar note, the American National Transportation Safety Board recently divulged they had covertly funded a project with U.S. automakers for the past five years, whereby the automakers were installing black box voice recorders in pick-up trucks. This was done in an effort to determine, when accidents occurred, the circumstances in the last 15 seconds before the crash.
They were surprised to find in 49 of the 50 states the last words of drivers in 61.2 percent of crashes were "Oh, Sheet!" Only the state of Montana was different, where 89.3 percent of the final words were: "Hold my beer and watch this!"
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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LMAO I wouldn't doubt it for a second - especially if they have AG on their plate...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pistemeister wrote: |
| You may find that Mr slippy from huddersfield is a better winter driver than the average swiss. |
Highly likely. I've driven a fair amount in Switzerland (admittedly never in snow) and they appear to be among the most incompetent drivers in Europe. I'm sure that doesn't apply to Swiss snowHeads (he said in a craven fashion).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| davidb wrote: |
| I don't see the reason why a fwd/awd (toyota landcruiser) would need snow chains if they have suitable winter tyres, as it is going to be much better in snow & ice than a citroen saxo with chains. |
Because rubber won't grip on ice. If the conditions are black ice or sheet ice a saxo with chains will trump a heavy catcat with rubber. Indeed heavy 4x4s can be a bit of a liability on steep, twisty French alpine roads.... they will go straight through Armco though whereas a Saxo will just crumple on the crash barrier!
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Always park your car somewhere out of direct snowfall, that way should you need to put on your chains it will be easier.
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Anyone knows if I hire a car from Avis or Hertz in Geneva in winter months, will it come with snowchains?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Crusader, if you hire a car on a Swiss side it will generally have snow tyres and chains - though several people recently have reported having to pay extra for the snowtyres on arrival even though they are "standard" and even though they thought theyd paid everything up front. You need to check whether there are chains in the car and, if there are not, make sure you get some. We met some people who'd hired two cars - one had chains, one didn't, but they hadn't thought to check as the weather was very clear and dry. They needed chains to drive back to the airport, and bought some in resort, and Avis reimbursed them for the cost, when they got to the airport.
If you hire on the French side they're not standard, you can request them, they may not have them even so. Generally, it's far easier to hire on the Swiss side. Loads of threads on this.
If your car has snow tyres it's going to be a lot better on the snow, but you sometimes need chains too, and when the weather is bad police may stop cars without chains, even if the do have snowtyres.
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In recent years have driven in Alps a few times a year. So far never needed chains, but have always had them and practise putting them on every year.
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FAQ
