 Poster: A snowHead
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
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If older folk who are less fit want to spend some of their money on lighter gear to make their trek more comfortable seems like a reasonable decision to me.
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Young people in their brand new hilleberg tent for there one night of fair weather camping per year looks equally stupid. It's the whole "all the gear, no idea" regardless of age. |
Well the criticism seemed to be of slower moving older people.
If you are older you are likely to move slower certainly than you once did no matter how fast you went . Having lighter weight stuff is sensible at this age. Moving slower actually means you are more exposed to the elements for any given distance and less resilient in terms of thermal stability making decent clothing perhaps more appropriate rather than less.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Let's not confuse our budgets and our choices because of them, in favour of what actually makes sense. |
And let's not pretend that budget isn't a serious factor for the majority of people. Likewise, one man's cheap is another man's expensive, and expensive doesn't always mean better.
In short, this thread is pointless.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Take some time, have some respect for the people asking questions. |
Perhaps take your own advice?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I’m just buying a new paint of skis. I knew what I wanted and asked the distributor if they had any b grade.
So I’m getting a brand new pair with a top sheet graphics flaw for 2/3rd the price of the new ski.
It’s a win : win for me and the manufacturer.
What’s not to like?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You seem to be advocating for a universal concept of value. Probably a good jump off for a philosophy PHD but not sure you're gonna resolve it on here.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| T Bar wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
If older folk who are less fit want to spend some of their money on lighter gear to make their trek more comfortable seems like a reasonable decision to me.
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Young people in their brand new hilleberg tent for there one night of fair weather camping per year looks equally stupid. It's the whole "all the gear, no idea" regardless of age. |
Well the criticism seemed to be of slower moving older people.
If you are older you are likely to move slower certainly than you once did no matter how fast you went . Having lighter weight stuff is sensible at this age. Moving slower actually means you are more exposed to the elements for any given distance and less resilient in terms of thermal stability making decent clothing perhaps more appropriate rather than less. |
The people I was actually describing were around 50 year olds. Hardly "proper old". I have met a few 60+ people out there on trails and have a lot of respect for them regardless of speed. I'm talking about some light teahouse trekking in Nepal with porters carrying all their bags, it's not a serious undertaking which is why the top of the line gear is so unnecessary.
But like I say it's not a specific crowd. Anyone with "all the gear no idea" just looks a bit stupid. My friend who's a beginner cyclist and very unfit just bought a very expensive bike would also fit into this 
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
I think that's the future to be honest - Chinese companies ripping off western designs, producing them in the same factory and selling them at half the price. Already seems to be happening in the cycling world. |
Pretty much this. Direct from china websites are (for right or wrong) rapidly changing the market place. Much of the kit is clearly made in the same factory. |
I've had patchy success with that. Some of the knock offs are much poorer quality than the original. I've even had that experience with SOME Alpkit knock offs. I'll cite the Brukit stove which is a rip off of a Jetboil but is significantly inferior in quality/reliability. I have an Alpkit Jura smock which is a knock off of a Buffalo pile/pertex shirt and works really well (not that I've owned a Buffalo for comparison) so I'm not generalising here.
I like a bargain TBH. That said three of my premium purchases have been really good value given their durability and performance (early arc'teryx ski shells, early stockli stormriders and orginal wild country - pre terra nova - quasar tent)
Actually I think I might add stoves to the "things worth paying for" category. It is a major pain when a stove stops working.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@jedster, I've got an Alpkit Koro stove which is Alpkit at its best - it got a manufacturer in China to spec its stove to a unique design that was/is better than anything else in the market.
Tho' nothing beats my selection of coke-can stoves for light weight 
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
Young people in their brand new hilleberg tent for there one night of fair weather camping per year looks equally stupid. It's the whole "all the gear, no idea" regardless of age. |
Did you know that the French got a special name for these kinds of people? They call them "parisiens". 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Let's not confuse our budgets and our choices because of them, in favour of what actually makes sense. This site is rife with cheap assed confirmation bias that helps no one other than to serve your choices. Take some time, have some respect for the people asking questions that are looking for genuine replies that are not tied to your inability to value a product other than for how cheaply you have bought it. Put your hand up, be proud and say "I"m a cheap cnut." No one cares, we can just pass over your nonsense reasons then. |
I respect a person who is this comprehensively drunk by half past six in the evening. Solid performance.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Harry Flashman, Plus two hours for daylight saving time and being in France.
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You know it makes sense.
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Anyone else wanna explain why they're first out of the taxi, last to the bar? You guys are very important to the future of pricing and the quality of product.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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There's nothing special about outdoor or ski gear, is there. People pay masses of money for super expensive phones, or new cars, or diamond rings, or all sorts of unnecessary stuff. So what?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Anyone else wanna explain why they're first out of the taxi, last to the bar? You guys are very important to the future of pricing and the quality of product.
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I suspect most of us that buy cheap stuff also have some very expensive stuff. Unfortunately my budget is not unlimited so have to make sensible choices.
I'm sure a iPhone is better than my cheap oppo. But the oppo is perfectly adequate for my very limited phone needs.
In some cases the cheaper option is not even inferior to the expensive version. For example the decathlon light down jacket used to be higher specced than the Rab equivalent at around 75% more expensive. My canyon bike is better specced for the money than any other bike brand (because they save money through direct to consumer). In these cases you'd have to be a mug to buy the more expensive.
On the other hand there are times when I'll buy the most expensive model. But there will be some justification of why it's necessary. For example I just bought some fitwell splitboard boots which are possibly the most expensive boots on the market. There is just nothing (without going down the hardboot option) that comes close, they will meet all my needs and I'll be using them 60+ days this season.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Skiing is a bit like the horsey community, there are two ends of the financial spectrum
Those who do it because they have spare cash to do it, and those who do it because they love it & happlily live on baked beans so there's enough money to buy 2nd hand ski gear & live in the back of a van at -20c so they can ski.
I'm definitely towards the latter, but I hate baked beans 
Skis & boots, top of the range, but last year's model
Clothing, Decathlon etc
I'd far rather be in a 1* hostel with a bunch of friends, than be alone in a 5* hotel
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I always have a inner smile when I see a 50+ year old with all the new best of gear.
I like to thing to myself, well done, you have used some of that pension on yourself.
We have no idea, they may well have been using the same cheap gear for decades as they have been paying for the family & now it is time for them to spend on themselves.
What I do know is, all bar one of the 50+ year olds I know buy what they want & don't give a damm what people think of them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| CH2O wrote: |
| Anyone else wanna explain why they're first out of the taxi, last to the bar? You guys are very important to the future of pricing and the quality of product. |
Do you want to explain why you care so much about what other people spend on their hobby?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Jonny996 wrote: |
| they may well have been using the same cheap gear for decades as they have been paying for the family & now it is time for them to spend on themselves. |
I'm not a big consumer in general, partly due to little spare cash after paying the ever increasing bills, but have recently invested in some bike tools that I should have bought years ago to make servicing easier rather than using inappropriate tools. So I'm not immune to the qualitative argument. It is probably better to have fewer but better "things" if only from a clutter point of view.
As far as downhill ski gear goes, only my helmet is decent. Everything else is average punter kit.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Jonny996 wrote: |
| they may well have been using the same cheap gear for decades as they have been paying for the family & now it is time for them to spend on themselves. |
I'm not a big consumer in general, partly due to little spare cash after paying the ever increasing bills, but have recently invested in some bike tools that I should have bought years ago to make servicing easier rather than using inappropriate tools. So I'm not immune to the qualitative argument. It is probably better to have fewer but better "things" if only from a clutter point of view.
As far as downhill ski gear goes, only my helmet is decent. Everything else is average punter kit. |
Similar outlook here too, in respect of tools and bikes. Just something that works properly is appreciated.
Sometimes you get a contrast though ... Bahco hex key set (Allen keys) not even expensive, but oh so good quality, durability and simple plain functionality. No colours, no funky branding, nothing extraneous, just quality. usually less than £15.00 set delivered.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Harry Flashman wrote: |
| CH2O wrote: |
| Let's not confuse our budgets and our choices because of them, in favour of what actually makes sense. This site is rife with cheap assed confirmation bias that helps no one other than to serve your choices. Take some time, have some respect for the people asking questions that are looking for genuine replies that are not tied to your inability to value a product other than for how cheaply you have bought it. Put your hand up, be proud and say "I"m a cheap cnut." No one cares, we can just pass over your nonsense reasons then. |
I respect a person who is this comprehensively drunk by half past six in the evening. Solid performance. |
I have discovered that jagertea is capable of doing that when you have two out of a giant pot at the top of the last run home to itter. I stupidly thought it wasn't strong, and after a day skiing thought a hot toddy was a great idea....... lmao. I'll stick to beer in future.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| snowdave wrote: |
@jedster, I've got an Alpkit Koro stove which is Alpkit at its best - it got a manufacturer in China to spec its stove to a unique design that was/is better than anything else in the market.
Tho' nothing beats my selection of coke-can stoves for light weight |
Just for reference, the Alpkit Koro is a re-badged Fire Maple Blade 2, which in turn is a titanium version of the FMS-11, which at 20g more is available direct from Fire Maple at half the price inc. postage. However, having had two go up in flames from leaking valves (the Koro/FMS-11 valves, not the updated Blade 2 valve), I have decided to give them a miss and return to either Soto or MSR!
I would be interested to know the unique design element of the Koro that made it better than anything on the market.
(I think Alpkit do some great stuff, I'm just not that enamored with Fire Maple Stoves.)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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maybe but the cheap decathlon ski helmets get sticky plastic syndrome after a season in the sun
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| ski3 wrote: |
Sometimes you get a contrast though ... Bahco hex key set (Allen keys) not even expensive, but oh so good quality, durability and simple plain functionality. No colours, no funky branding, nothing extraneous, just quality. usually less than £15.00 set delivered. |
yes, it was more about having the right tools rather than bodging stuff
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You know it makes sense.
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| galpinos wrote: |
| snowdave wrote: |
@jedster, I've got an Alpkit Koro stove which is Alpkit at its best - it got a manufacturer in China to spec its stove to a unique design that was/is better than anything else in the market.
Tho' nothing beats my selection of coke-can stoves for light weight |
Just for reference, the Alpkit Koro is a re-badged Fire Maple Blade 2, which in turn is a titanium version of the FMS-11, which at 20g more is available direct from Fire Maple at half the price inc. postage. However, having had two go up in flames from leaking valves (the Koro/FMS-11 valves, not the updated Blade 2 valve), I have decided to give them a miss and return to either Soto or MSR!
I would be interested to know the unique design element of the Koro that made it better than anything on the market.
(I think Alpkit do some great stuff, I'm just not that enamored with Fire Maple Stoves.) |
I didn't reply to snowdave because I haven't used the Koro but I've had similar experiences using cheap copies of original branded stoves and have concluded that it's just not worth cutting corners with stoves - at best it's a real pain when they fail somewhere remote, at worst they are actually dangerous.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@jedster, @galpinos, at the time the Koro was released, it combined the titanium structure of one of the fire maple stoves with the reheat loop from another one. The titanium fire maple at that time didn’t have a reheat loop, so flared if you knocked over the canister.
People were reporting online that they were buying the two different FM stoves and rebuilding one titanium/reheat version. Then alpkit got FM to build them to this spec directly.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| jedster wrote: |
I didn't reply to snowdave because I haven't used the Koro but I've had similar experiences using cheap copies of original branded stoves and have concluded that it's just not worth cutting corners with stoves - at best it's a real pain when they fail somewhere remote, at worst they are actually dangerous. |
In the case of Alpkit, the stoves aren't copies, but Chinese made under license. Sometimes this is an off the shelf model just coloured and branded differently, sometimes, according to snowdave, they are bespoke fabrications.
Re actual Chinese copies, it is a significant issue that no-one seems bothered about.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| snowdave wrote: |
@jedster, @galpinos, at the time the Koro was released, it combined the titanium structure of one of the fire maple stoves with the reheat loop from another one. The titanium fire maple at that time didn’t have a reheat loop, so flared if you knocked over the canister.
People were reporting online that they were buying the two different FM stoves and rebuilding one titanium/reheat version. Then alpkit got FM to build them to this spec directly. |
I was unaware of this, I just bought it as it was, at the time, at an attractive price point, but the canister top valve issues put me off. I assume they negotiated a sales embargo that has elapsed as it is available direct from Fire Maple and re-branded via other third parties.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Should this thread be retitled stoveheads?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| galpinos wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
I didn't reply to snowdave because I haven't used the Koro but I've had similar experiences using cheap copies of original branded stoves and have concluded that it's just not worth cutting corners with stoves - at best it's a real pain when they fail somewhere remote, at worst they are actually dangerous. |
In the case of Alpkit, the stoves aren't copies, but Chinese made under license. Sometimes this is an off the shelf model just coloured and branded differently, sometimes, according to snowdave, they are bespoke fabrications.
Re actual Chinese copies, it is a significant issue that no-one seems bothered about. |
I don't mean carbon copies but let's just say obviously very much inspired by an established successful product.
But I to have had problems with the fit of valves to cylinder (including on a different Alpkit stove as well as two ebay purchases of unbranded minimalist chinese stoves. I've probably been unlucky and most are probably fine but it is a product cattegory where I've now decided to stick with proven brands
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@jedster, ah, yes, I am very wary of the copies of an established successful product. Even if you ignoring the fact you are stifling innovation by not rewarding the company that innovated the design, they are invariably inferior and manufactured under gods know what conditions and, if sold in the UK via a marketplace, there is little guarantee that any certification is valid.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
they are invariably inferior
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I think you will fine they are sometimes inferior. Sometimes they are made in the same factory as the real thing and just have a different logo stuck on.
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I think the main issue with "parallel manufacture" is QC. Even if they are produced using identical raw materials they can be put together shoddier or use materials don't meet the grade for the brand. Or worse get lower grade materials substituted.
That said looking at e.g. bike accessories the quality of stuff in Aldi/Lidl/ Decathlon seems equal to branded stuff.
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FAQ
