That said, one should try to look after them - they are not cheap.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Snood - indeed it’s good, when considering something on or in which ‘commitment’ is demanded, not to be fretting about damaging your skis. Gets in the way of a clear head.
Love your quote:
…still ski well even despite some ugly grooves…
Yep that describes both me and my skis very well indeed…!!!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
valais2 wrote:
The Grom gets grip on ice on 106 noodle Factions with dull edges.
He gets more grip after I have serviced them.
But he still gets grip before that.
But…
I could not get my edges in on ice. Just couldn’t do it.
Reason: crap technique.
Look at the Grom doing short turns on boilerplate when all others are going sideways.
Dingly ding ding. It's not the ski, it's the skier, that's the most important part of the equation.
Angulation, leading to edge angle, is the key. And plenty of flexion of the knee to ensure more extension is available if and when needed.
Oh, and speed. You'll never get any grip if you're not going fast enough.
I have 'All Mountain' skis; they grip like a Scot to a pound (can I still say that ? Oh well - only meant in jest) even when in need of a service. Sure, sharpening them and waxing them makes them feel fantastic but, as @Chaletbueauroc says, it's the skier not the ski. Only thing I disagreed with was what someone said about being very aggressive; you have to be dynamic but not aggressive ... build pressure (fast) but progressively. It's recursive; the more pressure the more grip ... so you have to build the pressure in sync with the available grip. As I think I've said before, I absolutely love railing down hard, icy pistes ... you can absolutely fly.
Well as ever it looks like we have two trains of thought
Of course it doesn't have to be one or the other...
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Blackblade, re ‘aggressive’ I didn’t use the term but I think it might have been me you were thinking of.
You have to get that initial edge engagement on ice. Right angle, lots of energy/force. The moment you go into the transition you know that edge has to be rammed in….
So…I agree with dynamic but it’s also you DO need to pass a threshold of pressure to get the edge engaged. I think there’s a good modern discussion about exactly in the arc the edge engages….right at the point of transition, while most people think about ‘getting their edges in’ well AFTER the transition into the turn - way too late. This is consistent with what you are saying….
@Blackblade, re ‘aggressive’ I didn’t use the term but I think it might have been me you were thinking of.
I think I used it, and yes, I think it's warranted, as per your description. It's really just a question of semantics, one of those irregular verbs again: I ski dynamically, you ski aggressively, he's a complete nutter
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Layne wrote:
Well as ever it looks like we have two trains of thought
Of course it doesn't have to be one or the other...
No, it's either (or a combination of) the skier or... crap skis, or skis that have been messed with (someone randomly changing the base or edge angle thinking they were 'tuning' them).
But you're unlikely to find terrible skis (in terms of grip) from the big manufacturers unless your trying to aggressively carve a beginner set of floppies or buttery park skis.
I doubt your servicing has had an effect if it's within spec.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Very interested in these comments. We were in Val T last week and a good intermediate skier having skied about 30 times. I had my skis (carvers) waxed and edged before going. Sunday we binned off due to high winds and lots of lift closures. Monday was fine, went to Orelle but weather came in and we went back. But lower down in Val T I just lost control of my skis (rather they were in control and not me). Couldn't for the life of me get control and totally freaked out. Lost all my confidence especially as lots of pinch point crowds. Felt like I was trying to ski on glass.
Next day (Tues) was awful - bambi legged, no confidence and green piste to get to nearly all lifts was a shambles as I couldn't get control of my speed and was worried I'd take someone out. I looked like someone who'd never skied and decided to strap a pair on and give it a go. Quality of snow was better higher up but damage was done and ski technique/confidence shot.
Weds - dodgy weather again so went out and did one run (badly). Thur/Fri/Sat - ski technique and confidence all came back within an hour. Weather was warmer and ground conditions way different on the lift access greens.
Never had this happen before. Is this the boilerplate effect?
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@kettonskimum, ...interesting....you say the weather came in? Was it flat light? It's amazing how a natural reaction kicks in when it's flat light. We stop pressuring the front of the skis. Without knowing it, and without being able to moderate it, we lean back. A good remedy is to be a series of one-by-one totally-in-control small turns. Almost pausing between each one.
I went to Lauchernalp is zero viz, and I do mean zero viz. First visit and I had no idea of the lay of the land. I was skiing like a complete twit. I had to stop, get a grip, and use the one-by-one technique. That was kind of OK. But natural fear of the slope had kicked in an I had to deliberately overcome it. A few days' later I went again in the same conditions. But then I had a rough idea of what was where, and it was all fine, despite hardly being able to see my boots let alone the side of the piste.
It was all head stuff.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Icy slopes can be tricky. Your maintenance routine sounds solid, but unless you've got race skis, expecting perfect performance on those frozen pistes might be a stretch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
kettonskimum wrote:
Very interested in these comments. We were in Val T last week and a good intermediate skier having skied about 30 times. I had my skis (carvers) waxed and edged before going. Sunday we binned off due to high winds and lots of lift closures. Monday was fine, went to Orelle but weather came in and we went back. But lower down in Val T I just lost control of my skis (rather they were in control and not me). Couldn't for the life of me get control and totally freaked out. Lost all my confidence especially as lots of pinch point crowds. Felt like I was trying to ski on glass.
Next day (Tues) was awful - bambi legged, no confidence and green piste to get to nearly all lifts was a shambles as I couldn't get control of my speed and was worried I'd take someone out. I looked like someone who'd never skied and decided to strap a pair on and give it a go. Quality of snow was better higher up but damage was done and ski technique/confidence shot.
Weds - dodgy weather again so went out and did one run (badly). Thur/Fri/Sat - ski technique and confidence all came back within an hour. Weather was warmer and ground conditions way different on the lift access greens.
Never had this happen before. Is this the boilerplate effect?
I'd say yes to that.
Unusual in that the ski bases on hard "boilerplate" ice, go like a cat that's had it's tail stepped on (more crudely put, like Merd off a hot shiny shovel, being in France and all that ) feeling very precarious to the uninitiated.
The edges however, have very staccato response, wanting to give grip if run along their own track, but with very little progression in releasing into a slide sideways, usually the safe way to control your speed in close proximity and when you can't make elegant turns along the natural ski radius. Strips confidence away fast at some skill levels too.
Its where the term "Advanced" has a very literal and subtle meaning (images typically biased to big mountain hooning around predominately imagined) and technique allows the forced discipline of distinctly getting the ski edges to work harder for you in their designed radius, with the skier then not fearing or experiencing the skis having a mind of their own.
Many many skiers will struggle on this type of surface, indicating the level they have attained, rarely venturing into this much more difficult set of circumstances. You'll see the capable one's going past as if there's nothing wrong.
As pointed out previously in thread, good technique and a little speed is valuable, but that's the last thing you feel like doing, speed that is, when feeling vulnerable.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@kettonskimum, some of the flats were glass like at the start of last week as I recall. Although personally that doesn't bother me all that much as I don't need to worry about edging or slowing down. It's a weird feeling though.
I can't say I've had the "boilerplate effect" as in it's never shaken by confidence much. I remember once being in ADH on skis that were too stiff for me and making a bad choice of piste selection. And also once went with my bro-in-law for a day at Stuben when it was early Jan dull and cold - and my boots were getting old and uncomfortable. On both occasions I had a bit of crap time and my skiing was way of kilter. But I bounced back pretty quick.
As mentioned there is a fair bit of mental stuff involved.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
valais2 wrote:
@Blackblade, re ‘aggressive’ I didn’t use the term but I think it might have been me you were thinking of.
I think I used it, and yes, I think it's warranted, as per your description. It's really just a question of semantics, one of those irregular verbs again: I ski dynamically, you ski aggressively, he's a complete nutter
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
valais2 wrote:
@Blackblade, re ‘aggressive’ I didn’t use the term but I think it might have been me you were thinking of.
You have to get that initial edge engagement on ice. Right angle, lots of energy/force. The moment you go into the transition you know that edge has to be rammed in….
So…I agree with dynamic but it’s also you DO need to pass a threshold of pressure to get the edge engaged. I think there’s a good modern discussion about exactly in the arc the edge engages….right at the point of transition, while most people think about ‘getting their edges in’ well AFTER the transition into the turn - way too late. This is consistent with what you are saying….
I’m sure you’re right. It was just that my coach told me that I was getting on edge early enough but overpowering the ski too early (I’m quite large and strong) and I just equated it with braking a motorbike on a racetrack where you can brake very very hard BUT you need to get the weight transference onto the tyre to give you the necessary grip … so you build grip then you can brake harder which builds more grip and so on …
I can be a bit ‘bull in a china shop’ when I don’t think …
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Blackblade, Sounds like you maybe need a stiffer ski. Or more angulation through the turn.
I think the bike analogy works.. to a point. Getting your weight forward is true for both but in skiing the different direction of the shits wrt the centre of mass adds a different element, and we're trying to do the opposite from a bike in that we want the weight to be outside the turn to get more angulation and edge angle whereas on a bike you're trying to get inside the turn to keep the tyre in a more upright position.
Similar in some ways, completely opposite in others
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I don’t do it anymore - as long as I’m paying attention - I was slightly weighting the ski laterally rather than longitudinally in the past … now mostly fixed that problem and, now that I’ve been made aware of it, I can feel the impact and adjust.
The motorcycling analogy only holds true for a bike under braking though so that is what I was trying to illustrate; that the more you weight the tyre or ski the more grip it then delivers … so if you grab a handful of brake suddenly the tyre will slide (or the ski edge let go) but if you weight it progressively then it will stick way more than you’d imagine.
Turning a motorbike is another fascinating lesson in physics in that most people, including bikers, don’t actually know how a bike turns ! But I’m not sure that’s a conversation for here ….
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Blackblade wrote:
I was slightly weighting the ski laterally rather than longitudinally in the past …
You were what? I saw this earlier, made no sense to me then and still makes no sense now. More explanation needed.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
@Blackblade, Sounds like you maybe need a stiffer ski. Or more angulation through the turn.
I think the bike analogy works.. to a point. Getting your weight forward is true for both but in skiing the different direction of the shits wrt the centre of mass adds a different element, and we're trying to do the opposite from a bike in that we want the weight to be outside the turn to get more angulation and edge angle whereas on a bike you're trying to get inside the turn to keep the tyre in a more upright position.
Similar in some ways, completely opposite in others
Certainly agree as bikes can use both weighted inside or outside, typically Moto-X and Super Motard will use variance in weighting to different effect.
Not skiing, but near to you I believe ChaletB, an exiting example of technique and searching for grip
I came to do my wife's and my skis yesterday. The both had about 20 days skiing since their last sevice.
First of all I was amazed at how sharp the edges were, barely blunted at all even though we had skied for at least 1/3 of the time on hardpack. As a comparison my dry slope skies are blunter afer only a 90 minute session.
Secondly, both pairs had not a mark on the bases. A testement to just how good the pistes were in Les Arcs this season.
Thirdly, there was almost no wax on my wifes skis.
Forthly, the bases of my skis were rough and my that I mean just not as glassey smooth as I would have expexted. I suspected something wrong when cruising down roads the rest of our party cruised past me (my son puts this down to my poor technique in getting the skis flat against the snow and gliding) and in the warmer conditions of April when when I stopped my skis froze to the snow and I had to force them to get moving again.
Does anyone think that that block of white unlabeled wax found in my wax box is to blame? It was not the ultra hard dryslope wax or the coloured stuff and I think not candle wax.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@johnE, what's the roughness? Are there PTEX hairs, scratches or small gouges, or does the base look ok but feel grabby to the touch?
After all it is free
After all it is free
@johnE, ah John you’ve gone all hairy I think.
Time for a base grind? nope.
First thing is a series of hot waxes with hard wax and firm immediate removal of wax using a sharp metal scraper. This can really improve a base and bring it back.
And I have done that…(using brass rather than steel brush) and found it not as good as v sharp metal scraper technique.
If none of this works then a stone grind.
Then … found No wax on a ski? Could be a non-sintered base. Wax lasts maybe 100m on one of those…
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No hairs visible. The base feels like little undulations as if the wax has been worn in parts but not others. I scraped them then reapplied wax and scraped and brushed them again. Now feel smooth and polished again. The skis are perhaps only 25 days old. It seems very early to be base grinding them. I really suspect the wax
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@johnE, sounds good. Hairs may not be that visible - just manifest as surface roughness. I do three or four hot waxes when I get micro-hairs.
Indeed 25 days v premature for a base-eroding stonegrind.
Interesting if it was wax. Do you still have any of it? Old Toko universal was white - horrible stuff.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
Blackblade wrote:
I was slightly weighting the ski laterally rather than longitudinally in the past …
You were what? I saw this earlier, made no sense to me then and still makes no sense now. More explanation needed.
Ah, OK, hope I can do my coach justice as she explained this to me.
When you are aiming to put the ski on edge as early as possible there is a risk that, instead of pressing down onto the ski you are also, as you then go into the turn, pushing the ski outwards/sideways … laterally … rather than along the length of the ski (longitudinally). Once the ski is really on edge they become the same … but earlier on there is a difference … and, yes, whilst I struggled with it initially I found that it had a big impact particularly on hard/icy pistes.
Does that make sense to you ? If not, perhaps best if I PM you the name of my coach/instructor and the two of you can discuss it professional to professional; I’m just an amateur skier !
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Blackblade, it is a bit bewildering as an explanation.
Not from you, I get that.
Pressure ALONG the ski is from forward pressure.
Your version of LATERAL pressure is downward and outwards. Which you need - ie weighting the ski.
I’m not sure your instructor’s description really helps. The more classic description is knowing when to weight the ski and engage the edge
(My phone immediately put up an icon of a hedge. Engaging the hedge. Grief)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
johnE wrote:
First of all I was amazed at how sharp the edges were, barely blunted at all even though we had skied for at least 1/3 of the time on hardpack. As a comparison my dry slope skies are blunter afer only a 90 minute session.
Secondly, both pairs had not a mark on the bases. A testement to just how good the pistes were in Les Arcs this season.
Thirdly, there was almost no wax on my wifes skis.
Based on my experiences this season (I think maybe 2 days top with sub-zero temperatures) that's more or less what I'd expect. Saw almost no ice all season and piste basher grooming only visible for an hour or two at the start of the day before things hot hotter and slushier. Given it's ice that tends to wear edges most/sticky snow that's best at stripping wax good edges/needing wax is what I'd expect.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
valais2 wrote:
@Blackblade, it is a bit bewildering as an explanation.
Not from you, I get that.
Pressure ALONG the ski is from forward pressure.
Your version of LATERAL pressure is downward and outwards. Which you need - ie weighting the ski.
I’m not sure your instructor’s description really helps. The more classic description is knowing when to weight the ski and engage the edge
(My phone immediately put up an icon of a hedge. Engaging the hedge. Grief)
Personally, I’ve never been too engaged about hedges; I removed mine as it was too much of pain to prune
I suspect that my instructor, who is the director of a ski school in Zermatt, was using language that made sense to me and, as is probably obvious, I’m a bit of a physics nerd so it worked and created the right effect. I spent most of December in Zermatt this season and had four whole day sessions, spread out over the month to allow me to practice what we’d been working on. It really moved my skiing forward to a whole different level. I’m heavy (95kg) and I play competitive volleyball so I’ve very strong quads … so I had a tendency to be overly aggressive before the ski was sufficiently angled which caused a small amount of skid rather than a pure carve. Removing that skid, for me, was a real revelation but, as I said, I’m just an amateur who wants to improve so I may not be accurately reporting what I’ve been told.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
johnE wrote:
No hairs visible. The base feels like little undulations as if the wax has been worn in parts but not others. I scraped them then reapplied wax and scraped and brushed them again. Now feel smooth and polished again. The skis are perhaps only 25 days old. It seems very early to be base grinding them. I really suspect the wax
A friend in ski group waxed his wife's skis with "candle" wax with very similar results. First morning out and straight to lift during which they were getting progressively worse, off at the top and they literally stuck to the snow, gathered more snow and were unusable. We had to borrow a scraper that the liftie had to get them going. More extreme, but similar wax "performance"
No, we don't let him forget that event either
Recently blended microcrystalline wax with other wax and oils (different topic from ski use) and noticed that the micro crystalline wax has this "sticky" attractive quality when on a surface. Possibly the mystery wax is of this ilk.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
johnE wrote:
Does anyone think that that block of white unlabeled wax found in my wax box is to blame?
You must have an idea where it came from surely?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Blackblade wrote:
Does that make sense to you ?
Not really, no. As you say, I suspect this was based on a particular explanation to a particular problem you were having, and one which made some sense to you at the time and helped you get over your problem. Probably not worth delving deeper into, TBH.
Blackblade wrote:
If not, perhaps best if I PM you the name of my coach/instructor and the two of you can discuss it professional to professional; I’m just an amateur skier !
Hah! I don't think I've ever been called a professional before; ski instructing is strictly a hobby for me.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
valais2 wrote:
(My phone immediately put up an icon of a hedge. Engaging the hedge. Grief)
Is it French? I well remember some ESF instructors telling me to feel the hedges.
..and I play competitive volleyball so I’ve very strong quads … so I had a tendency to be overly aggressive before the ski was sufficiently angled which caused a small amount of skid rather than a pure carve. Removing that skid, for me, was a real revelation..
And that makes real sense...excellent. Indeed that skid removal is really important. Stomp It vids are really good on the 'rolling the ankles' bit of the transition, keeping the edges engaged. Nice description of what you did to improve.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Chaletbeauroc, ...hedge-fondling is a capital crime in France.
Hah! I don't think I've ever been called a professional before; ski instructing is strictly a hobby for me.
Well, you teach people to ski … so that counts as ‘professional’ in my book !
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
valais2 wrote:
@Chaletbeauroc, ...hedge-fondling is a capital crime in France.
I’ve never done it and wasn’t there at the time it didn’t happen … your honour !
After all it is free
After all it is free
valais2 wrote:
And that makes real sense...excellent. Indeed that skid removal is really important. Stomp It vids are really good on the 'rolling the ankles' bit of the transition, keeping the edges engaged. Nice description of what you did to improve.
At last … I’m making (at least some) sense
It took me a long time and a patient coach to do it though … now, if I’ve just got another lifetime, I might become a decent skier !
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
Interesting if it was wax. Do you still have any of it? Old Toko universal was white - horrible stuff.
That I am afraid may be the stuff and think Iv'e applied it again. I'll do a scrape and add some new. At least this time I've put the same wax on my and my wife's skis - she won't go past so easily next winter.
@Layne, I have a box containing perhaps a kilo of assorted waxes. I choose one that wasn't labled for anyting specific thinking it would be a good general purpose wax. As it was during this season the Christmas week was cold with a fair bit of hard pack, of the type you were discussing earlier and the Easter period mixed with powder, slush and a bit of firm stuff high up. The bases felt fine after the Christmas period but only rougher after the Easter one.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@valais2, Sorry for late response. Not sure what flat light is exactly however I did see a description of the day from another post on SH and that is what they said. I can tell you that the ground seemed invisible with both goggles on/off.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) feeling very precarious to the uninitiated.
