 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
@JohnMo, thanks for confirmation!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@caughtanedge, the wildlife area in that area is slightly higher up above Riffelberg and to skiers’ right. You can see it marked on the piste map below. The avalanche and fatalities were in the area down from Riffelberg to Schweigmatten. As you say there is another one between Gant and Blauherd
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@Haggis_Trap, and @jebroni3_16, …well…nobody’s perfect. Flippancy aside, my own life in the mountains has included quite a few - ‘goodness that could have gone REALLY badly…’ - from which I learned. The Grom thinks I am over cautious, which is probably right, but at least I am still around to learn more.
I took a small rack and 30m 8mm rope on a summer cabin trip recently and actually used every item. And we took axes to do a quick summer blast up the Trubelstock last year (2998m) designated as a hard walking route, and were jolly glad we had them.
HaggisT it does feel in the later videos that Nico S is becoming more reflective - digging pits repeatedly on an ascent, analysing terrain traps etc. And that I hope is having an effect on his very large audience. Cody T’s recent weird end video in The Fifty felt like a bail out for safety reasons - so many of the routes have deteriorated due to climate change - and I wish he had been more explicit about that if it indeed was the case.
I love the high mountains but goodness you need deep knowledge if you are going to be both old and bold.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
@JohnMo, I would defer to your extensive local knowledge, however I think that the whole area is shown in green shading on your screenshot, and in yellow on https://www.wildruhezonen.ch/karte. Certainly extending NE beyond the line of the Riffelberg Express gondola. So anyone descending from the top of the Riffelberg gondola or thereabouts, below piste 39, would presumably pass through it. The zone is only active from 01.12 to 15.04 so I don't know if there's any signage on the ground.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Some good comments about snow packs by commentators who know a lot more than me. The original comment is wrong in general and irrelevant to this avalanche. This was not a snow pack releasing - the sort of thing that happens most often in slopes between about 30 and 60 degrees. This was a short term (probably no more than 3 days) build up of snow on a much steeper area - close to being a cliff face. It is possible to hike up it (I frequently do) but there is no way even the best skier could ski down it). That snow released onto the skiable (but off piste) area below it.
The lesson I take (and I am certainly no expert) is that as well as snow packs, steepness of slope etc on what you are skiing you need to look at what you are skiing past. My son and I were out with a guide off piste a few weeks ago- in the Hohtälli area (slightly north of where this avalanche was). The guide stopped and made us look at what we were about to ski past. It was a much smaller (than the Riffelberg avalanche) cliff face and a much smaller accumulation of fresh snow. He then made us ski past it one by one - the next skier not starting until the one in front was clear. It was probably an abundance of caution on his part but also a good exercise for my son and I - for which I am grateful. The three of us were through when two youngsters came down and stopped for a chat right under the cliff face! They did not have avi packs on so it is a decent guess that they weren’t wearing avi beacons. The guide waited for them. You could tell he was livid but he politely pointed out what had been above them when they had their little chat. They were English first language speakers but it was like he was speaking double Dutch to them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@caughtanedge, Sorry, yes you are right. I think of that area as the wildlife area to the right of you as you walk (or snowshoe walk) up from Riffelberg to Rotenboden or on to Gornegrat. That is marked by poles, ropes and penants. Many people do ski that off piste area (can be quite scary for us walkers) and that stops them going further down and funnels them across to Riffelberg.
However as you point out (and I had forgot) the wildlife area does extend down the cliff face below Riffelberg. Nobody would ski that in any case. It is steep but more crucially it is mainly rock and usually wouldn’t have sufficient snow accumulations to ski. The wildlife area however ends at the bottom of the cliff. So when you are off piste skiing the gully you are skiing alongside the wildlife area not in it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@JohnMo, thanks for that. I assume then that you would drop off 39 further down from Riffelberg, but before it turns left on the north side of the gully. Have only ever walked that area in summer, Riffelalp to Gletschergarten etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| valais2 wrote: |
My view is that this is going to happen more and more. Just scoping a few new places and watching a POMOCA sponsored film on Les Marecottes they were emphasising how first tracks now appearing really fast all over the Freeride areas in ways not evident before. Mentality for some ‘I have fat skis…I am here for a week…there’s fresh out there and I must not lose the chance…’. No understanding of need to wait for consolidation, no understanding of ‘persistent weak layer’, no understanding of 2 moderate meaning some areas highly problematic etc etc. |
Your view sounds very sensible, but is - fortunately - in no way backed by the facts. The big change already occured over 25 years ago with wider shovel carving skis opening up off-piste terrain for virtually everyone and a lot of people predicted an outcome like you did, but avalanche deaths went flat or even declining ever since. My best bet is this: First and foremost, the factor of diminishing marginal risk was vastly overlooked or ignored. The tenth guy on a potentially dangerous slope adds very little to the probability of an accident actually occuring. After that, it's more or less nothing. Then, bulletins have become more accurat and much easier available. Airbags hit the market. Other safety kit is now way cheaper then back in the day. For example, shovels and probes do cost less in absolute (!) terms now then in the late 90s, so real prices have more than halved. At the same time an Ortovox F1 came in to the tune of €175, the same price as todays best choice, the Barryvox. But now you can find cheaper competition. More then that, if it's about money, there is a second hand market available now which wasn't really established back in the day. The F1 is now as good as it was a quarter of a century ago (very good that is), but now you can pick it up for the price of a half day ski pass.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
@JohnMo, …that’s really important and spot on.
Large party on Mt Blanc killed a few years back due to a slope releasing above them. Poor viz so they didn’t see it coming, but awareness of the terrain above you really vital.
The ‘dropping onto piste’ event at Crans Montana in 2019 was an unusual event where a cliff deteriorated suddenly (south facing choss outcrop which would have been frozen together in previous decades) and the stonefall loaded the snow slope below and triggered a large stone/snow avalanche - which made it all the way to the piste, killing one pisteur who was attending to an incident.
Seeing the Zermatt video you are spot on about it being mainly a ‘60 deg+ shedding’ incident but it is interesting that it was so large and wide - massively propagating - and to know the trigger mechanism in this case would be good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Quote: |
Deaths are stable - indeed slight downward trend - but I was not talking about massively increasing deaths but an increase in the behaviour shown in the Zermatt incident - people in an area with objective risk on an Avi4 day.
|
On the face it sounds like a contradiction. How can more people be taking more risks but deaths lower. But I think you are probably right. More people are taking big risks on level 4 days. But potentially this has been offset by better equipment, forecasting, education etc. where the majority are safer. Also would be worth considering the effects of climate change, potentially shorter seasons and more time with "safer" spring conditions perhaps means less deaths per season. Really so many confounding variables in play making it hard to draw any hard conclusions but makes for an interesting discussion/speculation.
Regarding overhead hazard I think this is something more education definitely needs to be provided on. I had someone this winter very proudly show me his gpx track on fatmap avoiding any terrain marked as avalanche risk due to gradient. Great, but you skied directly under an avalanche path which could have slid into your "safe" terrain. I believe Schirmer posted something about this on Instagram with a map showing avalanche run offs also. Would be a very good feature for fatmap to add.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
We just got back from Zermatt. As a poster above has said, most of the pistes were shut for several days, including on Monday. There had been extremely high winds and huge amounts of snow high up. They had only just opened up to as high as Blauherd when it happened I think. We had come down the mountain and were having lunch at Blatten, but we saw the rescue helicopters going back and forth. Really shocking. One of the men who died was a regular at the hotel we were staying at and we'd seen him a couple of nights before.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| JohnMo wrote: |
| @koru, I think you might be looking at the Cervinia app or website which shows the whole Zermatt area as closed when the link from Cervinia to Zermatt is closed (and vice versa on Zermatt app). Zermatt was open on the day of the avalanche. Specifically the lift and the train up to Riffelberg was open - that is where you come from to access that off piste area. |
ah, maybe, although I never saw anyone skiing off the klein Matterhorn those days.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| caughtanedge wrote: |
| @JohnMo, thanks for that. I assume then that you would drop off 39 further down from Riffelberg, but before it turns left on the north side of the gully. Have only ever walked that area in summer, Riffelalp to Gletschergarten etc. |
Yes. That is right. From Riffelberg you ski a fairly narrow piste running alongside the railway. It is fenced off on the gully side so you can’t drop into the south side of the gully (ie the nature reserve area). From when the fence ends people start dropping off. Most ski from there taking a diagonal to rejoin the piste just before it turns right then left (ignoring the chicken run) just before Riffelalp. Those who stay in the gully rejoin the piste at various points or ski all the way down the gully to Schwiegmatten where the gondola lift station is (just before Furi).
On a “normal” day it is a fairly benign off piste route. I know I am in the wrong but I have done the diagonal without avi equipment. However I wouldn’t go further down without avi gear on. Lots of people do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| koru wrote: |
| JohnMo wrote: |
| @koru, I think you might be looking at the Cervinia app or website which shows the whole Zermatt area as closed when the link from Cervinia to Zermatt is closed (and vice versa on Zermatt app). Zermatt was open on the day of the avalanche. Specifically the lift and the train up to Riffelberg was open - that is where you come from to access that off piste area. |
ah, maybe, although I never saw anyone skiing off the klein Matterhorn those days. |
Yes Klein Matterhorn skiing was not open throughout those storm days. Not even open today.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Just found out one of the victims was an ex-colleague who was a very experienced mountaineer. He had succesfully climbed Everest 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@BobinCH, that’s quite a wake up call….sorry to hear that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Sorry to read that
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Just found out one of the victims was an ex-colleague who was a very experienced mountaineer. He had succesfully climbed Everest |
Oh no. That is dreadful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| JohnMo wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Just found out one of the victims was an ex-colleague who was a very experienced mountaineer. He had succesfully climbed Everest |
Oh no. That is dreadful. |
It is certainly shocking. The good news is that his son survived
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| JohnMo wrote: |
| caughtanedge wrote: |
| @JohnMo, thanks for that. I assume then that you would drop off 39 further down from Riffelberg, but before it turns left on the north side of the gully. Have only ever walked that area in summer, Riffelalp to Gletschergarten etc. |
Yes. That is right. From Riffelberg you ski a fairly narrow piste running alongside the railway. It is fenced off on the gully side so you can’t drop into the south side of the gully (ie the nature reserve area). From when the fence ends people start dropping off. Most ski from there taking a diagonal to rejoin the piste just before it turns right then left (ignoring the chicken run) just before Riffelalp. Those who stay in the gully rejoin the piste at various points or ski all the way down the gully to Schwiegmatten where the gondola lift station is (just before Furi).
On a “normal” day it is a fairly benign off piste route. I know I am in the wrong but I have done the diagonal without avi equipment. However I wouldn’t go further down without avi gear on. Lots of people do. |
I skied down that piste a few weeks ago. One of the few we did before the weather turned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
As always these threads are of somber content, we talk of folk who have lost their lives doing something which we all enjoy.......skiing.
I shall go on record and state that I do not see any answer or solution to this repetitive scenario!
It's about eight years since I witnessed a young guy get flushed down the couloirs on Schilthorn, I was subsequently interviewed by the police to give an eye witness account of the event.
Sadly we haven't moved forward in these last 8 years, people who don't know about risk, people who do know of the risks are continuing to get killed.
If I could come up with a golden solution I would be shouting it from the roof tops.
Sorry to sound so negative but this is the reality of what I see.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
Sorry to sound so negative but this is the reality of what I see.
|
I don't think that's negative. It is the reality, just as young lads, just passed their driving tests, will continue to kill themselves showing off to their mates. And old men with more money than sense and skill will continue to kill themselves on motorbikes.
The risks are still quite low, in statistical terms, and the rewards considerable. I don't think it's that sad, really. People have always died doing risky things they love. And the off piste skiers are less likely to kill somebody else (though I know that can happen...) than the boy racers and the daft old men on motorbikes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sadly that appears to be the case. You can see from where I have put the arrow that there are a number of tracks down from the Riffelberg lift area. You would have to go under the wildlife protection area rope to get into that area. I am not sure why you would do it given it is forbidden. You get a fairly thrilling drop into the main gully but it is very short before you join with the main off piste route. Anyone coming down 39 and then dropping left into the gully gets pretty much the same off piste experience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
@caughtanedge, Yes, that's correct. German tabloid Bild has managed to obtain a pic of when the avalanche hit. If you compare that with the heli one from your link, three skiers are right below Riffelhaus, above the lower rock band. They were quite unlucky, as there are already a lot of tracks on the slope. I don't think one of these three triggered the avalanche, but another skier higher up. Probably one who tried another entrance. The one on onlookers left seems much mellower than the other two.
What's shocking is the amount of tracks right through the protected zone.
[Edit: Removed picture upon request. If you decide for yourself you still want to see it, here's the link to the article it's taken from: https://www.bild.de/news/ausland/news-ausland/drei-tote-in-zermatt-hier-verschlingt-die-lawine-ihre-opfer-87743146.bild.html?obOrigUrl=true]
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 7-04-24 11:23; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Origen wrote: |
I don't think that's negative. It is the reality, just as young lads, just passed their driving tests, will continue to kill themselves showing off to their mates. And old men with more money than sense and skill will continue to kill themselves on motorbikes.
The risks are still quite low, in statistical terms, and the rewards considerable. I don't think it's that sad, really. People have always died doing risky things they love. And the off piste skiers are less likely to kill somebody else (though I know that can happen...) than the boy racers and the daft old men on motorbikes. |
Bit harsh that; as a daft old man on a motorbike (ex-racer, trackday instructor) as well as an off-piste skier I accept that, yes, of course activities with higher risk will result in injuries and fatalities.
However, this kind of generalisation is unwarranted. What I, and I suspect most here, decry is people taking stupid risks or endangering others. However, despite all that, when someone ends up seriously injured or worse I think some degree of humanity is appropriate. We’ve all done silly things and got away with it; we shouldn’t be too judgemental.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Blackblade, its her superpower
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@Tristero, as the victims were known to people on here (see comments above), I think posting that picture is insensitive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| adithorp wrote: |
| @Tristero, as the victims were known to people on here (see comments above), I think posting that picture is insensitive. |
Removed the pic for you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
I have studied the shot from the helicopter with some incredulity. Tragically 3 people lost their lives.
Looking at the magnitude of the slide we could have seen a death toll in double figures!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
