French at war with foreign ski instructors

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I haven't read the whole article but are the Italians really not qualified? There is only one level: Maestro, same as in France AFAIKS.

As for paying tax in France, I thought that depends on where they are resident? I assume they are paying tax somewhere, but who knows.

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no surely not, thats not the way that French people do stuff....... oops apols, thats exactly the sort of stuff they do Laughing

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Part of being in the EU is accepting the qualifications of other member states where they are of an equivalent standard.
As is freedom of movement, so being able to work anywhere in the EU if you are a citizen of an EU state. The tax issue is a bit of a red herring so long as they are declaring their income somewhere.

The ESF have constantly tried to refuse any other nation's teaching qualifications, illegally, and have constantly made it really hard for independent ski schools to set up, even though they had their backsides handed to them in the Ski Cocktail case all those years ago.

The French have also finally got their way and largely destroyed the catered chalet business, but those people are now self catering not staying in hotels, and that will have a negative impact on the local economies, particularly where people self drive.

After all it is free

@JDL65, exactly

Just reading some French comments

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@offpisteskiing, correct. France was the only country where the "catered chalet business" really got underway.

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@offpisteskiing, That's not completely true, the chalet model was already on the wane pre Brexit. The French working regulations, minimum accommodation standards and payment of a decent wage (which stopped the exploitation of gap year kids, which they entered into willingly) had already moved the dial on profitability, as had the rapid rise in rent demands. There was then Covid which killed off a lot of small operators that had paid their rentals in full for 19/20, but lost 6 weeks of revenue. Of course Brexit didn’t help but the companies that still exist have worked round it.

There was no exploitation, and many, many staff were not gap year kids. I was 25 when I did my first season, and there were staff in their 50s too. Travel to and from the mountains, accommodation, food, lift pass, ski hire for the season, often clothing, and lots of time to ski. If it was exploitation there would have been issues finding staff, there weren't.

The chalet model wasn't destroyed by Brexit - that may have made staffing with UK passport holders a lot harder, but the French working regulations have made it unprofitable except at the very top end.
I know a current chalet operator, he pays his staff Eur1,500 per month plus accommodation, and has to pay a further Eur1,200 per month in employment 'taxes'.

You know it makes sense.

I am not sure why the French would have wanted to destroy the chalet market, especially French locals, who invariably owned most of the chalets that were available. as this gave them a guaranteed rental income for the season, through chalet T/O's, without having to deal with securing guests, changeovers, cleaning and mostly maintenance (that was one of my jobs Very Happy

).

But i do think that the chalet model has been declining for several years now, even before brexit (and covid), though am sure it has affected it as well, and this is down to various reasons as i see it.

for the last 25+ years now, due to the exponential expansion of low cost carriers, we have not been tied down to just having to use T/O charter flights or the big carriers and have been able to choose flights that suit our requirements, with more flexible dates and times. although, admittedly the prices for peak dates are a lot more expensive than they used to be from the beginning.

to a certain degree this is the same with Eurotunnel, which opened in the mid 90's' as this has allowed people who want to self drive, and normally to self cater, greater options for channel crossing times than the ferries did.

there has been increased costs to T/O's with more stringent labour laws, with more days off for staff, that i would assume would have needed to employ more staff to cover days off etc, AFIK chalets are still offering 6 nights with meals, so someone needs to cover the additional night off?

also, a lot people who went on chalet holidays, would have gone on these to make use of the chalet ski host/companion to show them round the slopes, as this took the stress away from them navigating the resorts pistes and mountain restaurants for the week. as discussed earlier on this thread, This has mainly been discontinued now, though I believe some high end operators have employed ski instructors to carry this out, but this cannot be cheap.

with the advent of the internet, along with transport options including transfers, holidaymakers have greater choice at their fingertips (keyboard!!) than ever before, to do their own research to choose where and when they want to go, and to be able to book suitable accommodation for their needs.

this is the same for ski schools, ski hire, lift passes etc.

I don't know for sure, but i would have assumed there would have been some kind of commission to the T/O for using preferred providers, i know that T/O's got some form of benefit (free staff lessons and ski hire etc) but if they were not getting the punters directly, and T/O's less payments from them, then this would have been a financial hit as well.

quite a lot of the above would have no doubt affected tour operators financially, that don't even offer catered chalets, as they would have had to cover additional resort reps (days off!) and potential loss of commission.

i honestly cannot answer about other chalet operators (maybe others can), but i can only talk from my experience but the company i worked for (silverski) had been reducing the amount of chalets and resorts they operated from for several years.
unfortunately, they went under during covid, so i have no way of checking the exact amount they were reduced by from when i worked for them in the mid 90's. but, even then when i was working for them they stopped operating in verbier, then La clusaz, then not long after that val d'isere.
they had even stopped operating in Meribel, from where they started, some years ago, and had fewer chalets in courchevel and la tania.

also, how many people on this forum who bemoan the demise of chalets, actually use catered chalets on a regular basis?
as most posters here very rarely mention using chalets, am sure a lot have used them previously in the past, but mostly, for a few of the reasons i have mentioned above go DIY now.

personally, i went on a couple soulless chalet-hotel type holidays (40 or 50 guests) before i did seasons, and i have only ever been on one typical catered chalet holiday (post seasons). This was organised by an ex silverski colleague of mine to a chalet in meribel, as both of us had worked there before, we (and the rest of our group) did not have to make use of any of the resort services, ski hire/"guide" etc that the company offered, and we had self driven there.

i am sure there will still be a market for high end operations, for cash rich/time poor guests, in fact i know of one such operation in the 3v's that is owned by a couple i worked with in Meribel, but the prices are eye watering

i certainly prefer to go DIY, and do all my own research, and book everything independently.

as someone who worked for a chalet holiday company, it is a shame, but i suppose things move on with the times.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

it looks like whilst i was composing my post, before and after my dinner, other posters had come up with similar opinions!!!

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@terrygasson, Commissions, which were paid in cash, to beyond 2000,
was where most of the profit was for small operators. Rates varied from 5% on lift passes for small cos to up to 70% on ski rental for the big companies. 10% was the going rate for instructors when they used to hawk themselves round chalets. Whether tax was paid on this bounty

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@chocksaway, yes, that what i would have thought, am sure the cash would have been collected every few weeks when one of the owners visited the resort Toofy Grin

with regards to lift passes, i knew that the lift companies would give season passes to the T/O staff, because it was more efficient for them to deal with one resort rep, with a couple of coach loads of guests worth of passes with attached photos, via a dedicated T/O window, on a Saturday afternoon, than hordes of holidaymakers arriving individually.
obviously, this is a thing of the past now with online rechargeable cards.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Some of the catered chalets we stayed in, and very much enjoyed, in the past were by today's standards fairly "basic". Shared bathrooms, etc. They were good value, and yes, the "ski hosting" service was a real bonus. Not just to have someone who knew their way around, but it was a way of skiing with other guests, and getting to know them. It provided a valuable source of employment for youngsters prepared to work hard, as well as play hard. Lessons in team work, being polite to guests at breakfast despite having been out on the lash till 4 am etc. Things have changed, for all sorts of reasons, but we have fond memories of chalet holidays. I have a grandson embarking on a "gap year" after A levels this summer and he would love to have been able to do a season in a chalet. And would have been good value.

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@Origen,
Still UK TOs employing UK passport holders out there, including chalet providers. You've just got to find them. Also in resort businesses.

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Yes, I know. There have been some interesting discussions about this, but it's nothing like as easy as it was. Probably the people getting the jobs now have particular experience, skills/qualities which mean it's worth the extra hassle for the employer. My grandson, despite his experience working in the kitchen of his local pub on weekends, is hardly in that category!!

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@Origen,
It was never easy - so many applying for so few jobs.
Not all roles require specific skills, especially in chalet-hotels, such as dish washer, night porter, waiting on, room cleaning, bar staff.

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A lot of it is that many TO's want people who are NOT less than say 23/24 years old - they want real life experience!

After all it is free

"...But it is a very long training. I have the example of one of my instructors who took twelve years to obtain it"

I'd heard about instructors having to come within a certain time of a ski racer and always thought it was bonkers; surely a test on patience and empathy would be more apt. Could this be one of the reasons they're short of instructors? Good to hear, davidof, that you can actually teach in France 1:1 as a personal coach without a carte pro. Can you elaborate please, can you teach without being as speedy as a ski racer?!

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@Origen - there is a surplus in periods like January - thats often when conflicts happen between certain ski schools and others - well sometimes anyway. Often thats why people start talking about 'unqualified' instructors as they are taking what work their is away from those qualified! In school hols for example it often works the other way around when anyone with a qualification is booked out 10 times over!
@Jude1 - it very much still is required! I and all my colleagues and thousands of others have done it. Whilst it has been 'done to death' this chat about the Eurotest one of the things it DOES do is offer a objective test and NOT subjective i.e. its not opinion based BUT more crucially (ski instructors know this) it shows a certain level of ability in technique i.e. skiing competence to teach! The number of 'higher level' lessons that I do that require higher levels of skiing performance I partially gained from training for my Eurotest so whilst it may sound bonkers it does show skiing competence! HOWEVER I also agree that more emphasis on teaching, patience and empathy etc would NOT go amiss either!

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@Steve Angus, 2 of the worst rugby coaches I came across were world class players. They knew there technical stuff but we're awful at teaching those skills.
Best lessons I had by a bus ride were im Snowhead Bashes; universally superb.

I realise that hence I think there should ALSO be emphasis on the non performance side of things and I think it is totally lacking unfortunately! Both should be assessed as eagerly as the Eurotest!

You know it makes sense.

@Steve Angus, I am perhaps guilty of giving Jude1 some false hope. As I said on the last page, teaching any sport, even one that you've just invented, requires a carte pro in France. The exception I mentioned was a personal coach, for example Andy Murray can come to France with Mark Hilton (I've no idea what Mark's qualifications are) and Mark wouldn't be required to apply for a carte-pro while still coaching Andy. Mark wouldn't be able to tout for business at Roland Garros with the aim of giving private lessons.

A more down to earth example. Eva Longoria could employ me to coach her at her Paris home and we could even go for a jog around the Luxembourg gardens together. But I couldn't work at Liberty Gym, Paris as a fitness instructor or at the tennis club in the Luxembourg gardens without a carte-pro or take Eva trail running in the Alps.

This rule of personal coach is highly restrictive; basically you can employ who you want in your own home or in the environs.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

It’s interesting to read how more french people are leaving the profession than joining. Maybe it’s something to do with having to spend all that time, effort, and money, to ski a race course within a certain time… then spend the whole day with massive groups of very young children not really doing much proper ski instruction. I get it, i wouldnt want to do that, as much as i love skiing, they’re basically glorified babysitters in that instance.

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I've always felt that the Eurotest is not a good test of ability to teach skiing. As others have already mentioned, there is no need to be a world-class athlete to be a world-class coach/teacher. The best coach I ever had whilst playing high level volleyball (well, high level for the UK) had never even played national league himself ... but he was a brilliant trainer and tactician and we would have won far fewer games without him.

Now, I completely accept that for skiing (as for motorcycle track training - which I do occasionally coach) there is the need to be able to keep up with the student with sufficient ease that you have the time and attention to focus on what they are doing ... but you don't need to be anywhere near national racer standard to achieve that for 99.999% of the students that you will teach.

Speaking from personal recall, I remember a lot of (sorry to say, particularly ESF) instructors who were clearly exceptional skiers themselves but with very little ability to spot core failings/errors and find ways to correct them. I made a lot more progress later with instructors who were probably lesser skiers personally but far far better coaches/trainers.

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@Blackblade, I think you, like many others, are fixating a bit on the Eurotest. It's not the be all and end all. It's not in itself a licence to teach skiing. It's not expected that you will ever ski anywhere near that fast with clients. What it says is that the instructor is a better skier than anyone they're likely to encounter in a teaching setting.

But as well as the test they have to learn and be able to demonstrate technical and teaching skills to a very high standard. Yes, I remember ESF instructors from way back who were, errr, not so good, but they came from an era before the training was so rigorous, just as in every skiing country. I don't think you'd find many like that who've qualified through the current training system.

As an instructor (in CH) myself I agree that just because I didn't start teaching until I was over 50 (effectively making the Eurotest impossible - nobody of that age has ever passed it) does not automatically make me inferior. But I absolutely accept that those who have done it have achieved a level of skiing higher than I could ever aspire to. And of course I never had any intention of making a career out of it, so again, I accept that those who spent a fortune in time and money getting the qualification in order to teach as a career do, in some ways, have more of a right to it than hobbyist instructors such as myself, no matter how good we may be. And they need the money more than I do.

I do think, however, that the system in Switzerland is better, where there's a set ratio of Patent-holders per unqualified instructor within a ski school, and it is required that some level of supervision and training is in place. And it means that they can call upon part-timers to fill in at busy times without infringing on the earnings of those doing it for a living, so it keeps everyone happy.

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@Chaletbeauroc fair point. Perhaps it's not so much the Eurotest as you say and it's a bit more about how ski teaching has evolved.

However, I would imagine that, whatever you say about learning to become an instructor at over 50, you would still be able to teach me very effectively because your individual skill level, whilst not that of a top-flight racer, is still so much better than mine that it's immaterial. As long as it's easy for you to keep up with a student then the key elements are how well you can analyse my skiing errors and help me to become better.

So, I think I do disagree to some degree; being a great instructor requires a certain level of individual ski ability but I don't think it's the key skill. So, whilst you might well be an inferior individual skier when compared with a top flight racer you may very well actually be a better instructor.

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We've had a bit of a thread drift here (how unusual Laughing

) on the eurotest/speedtest topic. It's been suggested but not outright mentioned, but to become a L4 fully qualified instructor there's also technical and teaching exams, as well as mountain safety/off piste training. The eurotest/speedtest is just one of the 5 aspects for the L4 qualification (the 5th module being a reasearch type project).

Not to mention that at L3 standard you're also expected to pass teach and tech exams, plus other modules.

So there's a lot that goes in to being qualified other than passing a GS test.

My understanding from the Austrian instructors that have been training GS with us the last few Saturdays is that they also have timed GS runs in their qualifications at a lower level than fully qualified (Staatlich geprüften) as well.

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Restrictions vary in nature, I suppose, some more formalised/legal and applicable to all, some more local in nature. But I doubt if any of the "foreign" penetration of the ski school business, or the accommodation business for that matter, is greater in any of the other major Alpine countries than it is in France. I don't think the frequent complaints here that France is more "anti competition" or "anti foreigner" than the rest can be sustained. There are certainly fewer openly discriminatory laws (e.g. on right to buy property) than in Austria or Switzerland.

They are all very different countries, each with their strengths and weaknesses!

After all it is free

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French at war with foreign ski instructors

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