 Poster: A snowHead
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I think a lot of the problems stem from how many define their ability. I.e. blue run skier, likes a red, can get down a black being the most common descriptions I hear. That naturally leads people to have confidence that they can ski whichever color of piste they use to describe themselves. Which is a major issue when it is hard pack with some genuine ice. A wide red piste is a doodle when the conditions are good, but way beyond the ability of many intermediate holiday skiers when it’s narrow and icy. Many will struggle on an icy green slope even, as the core technique is not that strong and fear makes it even worse.
I have never liked those descriptors as they frankly say nothing at all about ability. The very worst is “can get down most blacks”, as it inherently suggests the skier takes on terrain beyond their ability. The goal is not to survive, but ski in control such that you are not a danger to yourself or others. I was largely self-taught at the start of my skiing career, and could definitely get down a black in reasonable conditions. But I was a terrible skier. And it was a terrible mistake to start out that way, it cost me years and a small fortune to correct the very bad habits I had formed.
I hope everyone takes proper account of the conditions and their ability to manage them. Stay safe out there. And avoid especially busy and popular red slopes as that is where the majority of the over-raters will be.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Who can forget those heady days, paying through the nose for two trips up the t-bar after sideslipping for hours in skin-stripping horizontal hail! I actually enjoy a bit of sideslipping, it's massively underrated.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Resorts also have a lot to answer for too. Slopes should not be open if dangerous. Signage should be clear if there is hardpack or ice. And chicane netting of steeper, harder pistes so if someone does fall they will be caught before too much damage is done. This often does not happen, one assumes that the commercial pressures are the main reason. But is is just irresponsible to not manage the risk properly.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Peter S wrote: |
Yes in the 1970s and early 1980s standing in 10 lines of queues at the Corrie Cas or Whitelady high precision side slipping with skis together bevame a competitive sport. Extremely useful and essential on frozen snow  |
Experienced similar last year queuing for the Cliffhanger at Glencoe - slope down to the lift was "challenging" that day and the people who negotiated it without arms windmilling and falling over were 50+ imo.
| pavlf wrote: |
| Who can forget those heady days, paying through the nose for two trips up the t-bar after sideslipping for hours in skin-stripping horizontal hail! I actually enjoy a bit of sideslipping, it's massively underrated. |
Character building !
| zikomo wrote: |
| Resorts also have a lot to answer for too. Slopes should not be open if dangerous. Signage should be clear if there is hardpack or ice. And chicane netting of steeper, harder pistes so if someone does fall they will be caught before too much damage is done. This often does not happen, one assumes that the commercial pressures are the main reason. But is is just irresponsible to not manage the risk properly. |
From my experience, pisteurs do try their best to warn people, but I dont disagree that commercial considerations are key.
I think punters need to shoulder a bit here - there is at least one generation of people who have learned to get down using excellent modern skis and - in some ways - see a skiing holiday as not much more risky than a week at the swimming pool.
It doesnt have to be scary, but there are risks, and not just off piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
see a skiing holiday as not much more risky than a week at the swimming pool.
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Not as safe as you might think.
Statistics: UK accidental drowning fatalities by water body type
Waterbody type 2013 2020
Coastal 137 101
Inland 220 132
Pool 6 4
Residential 18 17
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Just back from a long weekend in Avoriaz and agree that defining ability by piste grading is a poor approach. I’m very much an intermediate having only skied about 5 weeks total (coming over from snowboarding) and whilst I’m comfortable in pretty much any snow conditions/gradient on a board, on skis its very much dependant upon on a variety of elements - gradient, width, snow conditions, weather and of course physical/mental state!
First day was fairly benign with light rain in the afternoon, but Saturday/Sunday were typical spring conditions with hard snow/some icy patches in the morning/in shade with soft snow/slush moguls in the afternoon. That said even on a very short run like Baron you found hard, scraped and icy conditions at the top and just 100m downhill piles of slush. To say that snow was variable was an understatement!
So as a skier confident on reds in good conditions we kept mainly to blues with the only fall occurring in Plain Dranse where the blue becomes a red as the slope enters the shade and the gradient increases. Thankfully didn’t slide too far, quick use of some side slipping (us boarders learn that technique very early) deep breath and continued on for a drink and to “enjoy” the sight of many others having the same issue.
Generally good signage across the PDS warning of hard pack and to control your speed. Only the odd idiot skiing beyond their ability for the conditions.
Despite the lack of snow at lower levels and the challenges described we had a very enjoyable weekend. Booked a private lesson on the afternoon of day one and then enjoyed the challenge of applying that learning over the next two days. I do get the sense that so many accidents occur because many holiday skiers will sit in the hotel bar when the stars don’t align for good conditions and so don’t get any experience dealing with poor snow, icy patches etc
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 30-01-24 10:58; edited 1 time in total
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| Quote: |
many holiday skiers will sit in the hotel bar when the stars don’t align for good conditions
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Sometimes that might be a wise move. My main leisure activity is sailing (not in winter!) and sometimes staying in port when it's blowing a gale is a good decision. You're not so much in danger from other people as in skiing, but gear failure (and sheer discomfort) is an issue.
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| Extremophile wrote: |
| The inevitable boarder lost his edge and unable to stop himself slid at least 30m straight in to the back of a skier, took out both her legs slamming her back in to the piste both legs above her head…. |
and this is why when I hear someone scraping down behind me I panic and freeze - and whilst its understandable if you are on a red or a black - but coming down a green/easy blue littered with beginners and nervous skiers? I don't think you should be going so fast that a hockey stop would be required to avoid them.
and yes, I get that the "experts" will say if I'm that nervous I should probably just stay in the chalet - another week of being too scared and that will be my conclusion too
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@skimummk, To be fair, if its hard or icy and someone is on a board, a hard stop sounds a lot worse than it really is.
The noise is more as a result of the action of the edge on the ice (regardless of the slope grading) rather than someone necessarily going too fast.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Origen wrote: |
| My main leisure activity is sailing (not in winter!) and sometimes staying in port when it's blowing a gale is a good decision. You're not so much in danger from other people as in skiing, but gear failure (and sheer discomfort) is an issue. |
Last year we did a delivery flotilla in April/May - we were aiming to get from Paxos through the Lefkas canal - a long trip on a good day. We set off, we were about 1hr out when I said to hubby that we should let the lead crew know how bad it was and turn back (we were first off as we had the smallest yacht). He said "they know what they are doing"... we ended up in 28-30 knots, huge waves, I physically struggled to hold the wheel, our gps failed and our phones wouldn't work as they got too wet, then we got diverted - it was 7hrs of head on rain and waves, soaked through all my layers (including two waterproof jackets on top of each other -I didn't have the right kit for that weather, it was Greece!). Even when we got to the port we couldn't get an anchor to hold - went down to get a hot drink and came up and we'd slipped and drifted (god knows how we didn't hit the catamaran that had been next to us).
We survived, but the elderly gentlemen on another yacht nearly didn't. Their yacht was taking in water, faster than they could bail it. The water came up to their sofas, the boards were floating and the yacht was literally sinking. The lead crew got close, but would have had to watch it go down as there was no way to get near enough to get them off, and when they retold it they said they had decided they were probably too old and unfit (75 and 81) to get in their liferaft. Scary, scary times. They eventually got to the port, another yacht limped in after them with storm damage and while this was happening the company scrambled staff to assist us moor up - we were all booked into the luxury marina that the company didn't normally use so that we could use the hot showers, washing machines and tumble dryers and we stayed for 2 nights while they got a replacement yacht for the others.
I didn't like to say "I told you so" but that day we really should have been kept in port.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| GreenDay wrote: |
Bit surprised hearing these anecdotes about people's inability to sideslip (or probably more correctly, people's lack of proper side slipping technique).
It was one of the very first things we were taught as kids in Scotland....... although perhaps that's a reflection on the occasionally ropey nature of the snow up here !
That, and how to put a ski back on in challenging circumstances, are skills I couldn't really do without. |
Me too (as in surprised).
I was taught, as a beginner (22 years ago) at Serre Ratier (Serre Che) by an ESF instructor and he absolutely drilled in about side-slipping as possibly the most important tool to have in the box. More so than snow ploughing, even. That lesson has stood me well, often.
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| GreenDay wrote: |
@skimummk, To be fair, if its hard or icy and someone is on a board, a hard stop sounds a lot worse than it really is.
The noise is more as a result of the action of the edge on the ice (regardless of the slope grading) rather than someone necessarily going too fast. |
I get that - and try to convince myself its a good noise as it means they are in control!
However on the green/blue pistes I was on in Valmeneir in January there was no ice - snow conditions the best I've seen. The people freaking me were literally shussing down these slopes and I get on the green it wasn't particularly wide so difficult not to get close but when you are on a big open blue it p'd me off that the supposedly good skiers wouldn't alter their course not to come really close to me (and others - I saw a lot of near misses) - if you are good enough to be going at that speed surely you are good enough to adjust slightly to give a "wide berth". Its how I ended up stuck on the edges and I didn't feel safe traversing as inevitably you will be in someone's "straight down" path.
I guess the problem is that the green/blue are often the runs back to the resort and people just want to get there as fast as possible, but (and I know it won't be popular) I would like to see speed limits on slopes that are marked "debutante" or where there are "ralentir" signs. There was one point where a red back to the resort crossed the green "road" - skier on the green were literally playing chicken with the skiers coming down the red who didn't slow at all. Saw on skier fly down the red into two beginners who were snowploughing - they all ended up in a heap and only just avoided being knocked onto the red - and the skier coming from the red had passed two "ralentir" orange nettings. From then on I would stop before the crossing and wait till the red was clear - but you shouldn't have had to do that as the red was quite wide, so if the skiers from above took notice of the signs there was plenty of room to anticipate how to avoid those on the green.
I also don't get why, if you are good and like speed, you would choose the "green" route back rather than the alternative red/blues - in Valmeneir all the routes run back to the same place!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Cacciatore wrote: |
I was taught, as a beginner (22 years ago) at Serre Ratier (Serre Che) by an ESF instructor and he absolutely drilled in about side-slipping as possibly the most important tool to have in the box. More so than snow ploughing, even. That lesson has stood me well, often. |
I was taught side-slipping in the 80s and it has served me well, but I don't trust these new-fangled "short" skis - I learned to ski on 185cm Grand Slalom racing skis (bought in Sports Direct I think - I hadn't a clue lol!) as they were my own I *knew* I could trust them and there edges were razer sharp.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@skimummk, I completely agree with you, there are too many people skiing too fast for their ability and with little/no consideration for others. What is needed is enforcement on the mountain, but it seems particularly the French are not likely to accept this any time soon. And of course it would increase lift pass prices. But I really think it needs to happen, particularly as we are getting more spells of poor conditions.
I have to say that in my experience, the Brits are amongst the worst offenders. And it is not the just the youngsters, but often middle aged men with all the gear....
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skimummk wrote: |
| ... and this is why when I hear someone scraping down behind me I panic and freeze - and whilst its understandable if you are on a red or a black - but coming down a green/easy blue littered with beginners and nervous skiers? I don't think you should be going so fast that a hockey stop would be required to avoid them. .. |
Last week I rode the Grand Montets ski-out, which is basically a road (so easy), but "icy" that day in all the way from top to bottom. The noise my edges made was loud and horrible turn after turn. But those were 100% controlled turns made by an expert: safe, legal, predictable. And polite. And yet the noise was... loud.
If you rode skis in control at speed in those conditions you make the same noise. The edges are the same, the physics is the same.
If I didn't enjoy riding icy piste at speed, I'd just take my last run in higher-up better snow, then download in the lift.
When I choose to ride an icy slope, I expect other peoples' skis to make noise on it the same as my edge does.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I’m in Kitzbuhel at the moment, so not France obviously(!) and I can’t say I have any complaints here apart from the off piste being a bit rubbish due to the warm temperatures and rain last week. Plenty of untracked available but it’s not very nice to ski (hence why untracked!)
But overall the pistes are in good condition and can ski down to the bottom station in all places, same as usual although it is definitely more Spring like for January. Pistes soft rather than icy. Definitely some hard pack but no sheets of pure ice that I’ve noticed. Had a great day yesterday.
Thing is in early March 2019 it turned very wintry here and was more like January until it changed again so you never really know how it will be guaranteed.
So it’s not all doom and gloom everywhere.
Haven’t seen any blood wagons all week come to think of it (was here last week as well).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Said in another thread. Strongest El Nino for 25 years. The last one was a record number of avalanches. Treacherous conditions for experienced & inexperienced.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I didn't like to say "I told you so" but that day we really should have been kept in port.
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Sounds an absolutely horrible day, @skimummk. Perhaps you should have stayed in port, but every skipper must make their own decisions. Perhaps you should have turned back. Really difficult when you're in a "gang" with a schedule to meet, though. And it sounds as though your OH was the skipper - though taking care of the crew is a pretty important part of that job! The skipper of the boat I've crewed for some years now is very experienced. But he's also 90 on Thursday!! He makes the decisions but he consults the crew (who are a little less elderly) and is very good at taking my views into account. If he disagrees he always has good reasons, and explains. If he wasn't like that, I'd not be on the boat!
I've been skiing with people who want to do "one last run" and have quite often opted out, and/or taken a lift down on my own. I don't understand why people who are understandably nervous of those busy, icy, slopes down at the end of the day don't opt for the lift, when that's an option.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Origen wrote: |
| Quote: |
I didn't like to say "I told you so" but that day we really should have been kept in port.
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Sounds an absolutely horrible day, @skimummk. Perhaps you should have stayed in port, but every skipper must make their own decisions. Perhaps you should have turned back. Really difficult when you're in a "gang" with a schedule to meet, though. And it sounds as though your OH was the skipper - though taking care of the crew is a pretty important part of that job! The skipper of the boat I've crewed for some years now is very experienced. But he's also 90 on Thursday!! He makes the decisions but he consults the crew (who are a little less elderly) and is very good at taking my views into account. If he disagrees he always has good reasons, and explains. If he wasn't like that, I'd not be on the boat!
I've been skiing with people who want to do "one last run" and have quite often opted out, and/or taken a lift down on my own. I don't understand why people who are understandably nervous of those busy, icy, slopes down at the end of the day don't opt for the lift, when that's an option. |
Actually, I'm the skipper on the yacht - we both have our ICC but I also have the Day Skipper theory (from 1992 haha) so I pull rank - but the decision whether to go or stay on a flotilla is made by the flotilla skipper - where I went wrong was not trusting my instincts and relaying the conditions back to him. Many years ago we were stormbound for three days in Spartahori - but on the last day they needed the yachts back at base, so although conditions hadn't improved, off we went. Waves bigger than the yacht, I thoroughly enjoyed it, but when we got back to base the old seadogs cautioned my enthusiasm - with a "you should never have been allowed to do that - luckily you don't know enough to know how dangerous that was" - we did pass a de-masted yacht on our way though, so we were aware things could go wrong.
One other irrational thought I have between the dangers of sailing and skiing is that "I can swim, but I can't fly and I don't bounce".
I am definitely a "downlifter" and the one thing I did do really well in January (I thought) was to give up BEFORE I got too tired - in the past I've wanted to ski every last minute of every day to make best use of the liftpass, but I recognise now that its more important to do less runs that I enjoy than to try and ski to the bitter end.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Excellent thread drift
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skimummk[/b], The way you described it, it sounded as though you made a suggestion and your OH countermanded it! So when you thought "I told you so" you were clocking it up as a learning experience - you should have stuck to your guns!!
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| Origen wrote: |
| skimummk[/b], The way you described it, it sounded as though you made a suggestion and your OH countermanded it! So when you thought "I told you so" you were clocking it up as a learning experience - you should have stuck to your guns!! |
He's not brave enough to "command" me to do anything but he does have a way of making me feel like I'm being over anxious. However, I spend my entire life telling people "I told you so" - I worry about everything and spot all sorts of potential pitfalls and dangers, at home and at work, so its nothing new for me to ignore my spidey instincts and then be proved right. I suspect my gravestone will say "I told you I was ill"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Despite highly managed pistes Skiing remains an outdoor adventure sport. ‘Adventure’ means that the outcome is uncertain, unlike say a fairground ride or similar where you absolve responsibility. It means that participants have to manage their own wellbeing using their skills, information, experience and equipment. Individuals have a responsibility to keep themselves safe and the risk to and from others.
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| Quote: |
I spend my entire life telling people "I told you so"
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You were the skipper. Your call! Very difficult if you're an over-anxious person. I'm not over-anxious but I'm not very brave either, and tend not to push myself too hard. I was once skippering a chartered yacht, and sailing one day in company with another, bigger, yacht skippered by the owner of the charter company. Both boats heading for Troon. It was getting harder, and although my crew were enthusiastic to carry on two of them were quite inexperienced and I decided to stop off at Largs and cook us a really good supper (I was cook, too). Told the other skipper, who didn't criticise my decision but said they were carrying on. Some while later, after we'd eaten, we got a call (I'd omitted to switch off the VHF). The other boat had been forced to turn back by the deteriorating weather and heading into Largs too. Could we please come and take their lines. It was pitch dark by then. Felt rather smug - my decision had been the right one. I would always tend NOT to push on in difficult conditions (on a boat or on skis) so will never achieve anything very remarkable. I much prefer to be "first mate" rather than skipper - provided the skipper is a good one. Savoir renoncer.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Racers ski on ice all the time.
No problems at all.
No need for panic and hysteria.
Sharpen your edges every 1-2 days.
Slow down.
Relax.
Carve.
Finish the turn.
Don't scrape.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Racers ski on ice all the time.
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But they do get to go one at a time. And I recall an awful incident a few years ago, when somebody was on the piste, where they shouldn't have been, somebody got killed.
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@Whitegold, most people are not racers. Most people can not sharpen their edges every day. Not panicing and relaxing is easier said than done.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Whitegold wrote: |
Slow down.
Relax.
Carve.
Finish the turn.
Don't scrape. |
So… ski safely. Which is not what everyone does.
Racers are usually alone when running the course.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Sure, because skiing as fast as you can is the best advice when piste conditions are so hard-packed that the authorities issue a very rare general warning.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Slow down...
...Carve.
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Just how do you slow down when carving?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Just how do you slow down when carving?
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well to be fair
But it's not quite that simple 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Les Deux Alpes conditions are poor and more crowded than I would expect this week. All pushed into a smaller selection of decent runs rather than spread across t(e whole resort I guess. Accidents have been consistant over the last few days as conditions worsen through the day and with rising temps. Plenty of blood wagons and helicopters up and down the resort.
Tbh it’s all manageable if you are restrained and moderate speed, plan a good route and just be sensible. But idiots a plenty have been all around.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@gixxerniknik, stivot.
@Whitegold, you forgot 'tuck'.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| phil_w wrote: |
If you rode skis in control at speed in those conditions you make the same noise. The edges are the same, the physics is the same.
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They are and they aren't. I've ridden both extensively and I think the shape and width of the board allows more vibration and creates more noise. They just aren't as rigid edge to edge as a ski. I think there is also the tendency to stay on an edge for longer on a board between turns so it's a longer, more intense scraping noise.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Dashed, I would be inclined to agree. When next on the hill I will try to play the game "who made that scraping noise?"
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@nbt, I really struggle to hold a carve through 180Deg even on hero snow...but I'm not a pro ski racer like @Whitegold,
@Avabrunch, stivot?
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| Quote: |
a longer, more intense scraping noise.
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the thing I fear most when it's coming from above me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@gixxerniknik, likewise
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| gixxerniknik wrote: |
@Avabrunch, stivot? |
You'll see it most in GS racing. A rapid redirection of the skis at the top of the turn to scrub off some speed, allowing for carving out the rest of the turn. Basically better to deliberately throw in a small skid at the start rather than the end - more control, less loss of momentum.
Or, personally, I have a lie in, a late breakfast - or brunch  - wait for the carnage to die down and pick the best softening slopes for a full afternoon until the last lift.
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FAQ
