 Poster: A snowHead
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I less and less bouncing. You don't need to do that to do powder 8s or anything else.
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| ...I worry the tip of my skis could get stuck in the snow and I may break something. So I don't tend to go as fast but I understand you need some speed to turn and to unweighted and weight your skis. So I transverse across quite a bit instead of turning around the fall line. |
I hear that. You could perhaps try to find some really soft snow which can't possibly hurt you, then try to see how far forward you actually need to be to "auger in".
I think it's way further forward than you think, not something that happens by accident.
I think that probably is an issue, if you're being defensive about that.
Traversing is really hard too, it's easier to go fall-line.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @rob@rar, but what IS bouncing? Is it little repeated squats? Surely they wouldn't, of themselves, make you change direction, even slightly. |
I think that jumping on a trampoline is a very good analogy. When you jump on a trampoline you use your weight/gravity to press down through your legs to depress the trampoline. You don’t just squat down, it’s a much more dynamic movement where you build pressure as the trampoline material is stretched downwards. At the bottom of the range of ‘down’ the trampoline is taut enough for you to use it as a firm base to press/jump up. Same happens with snow, you build a platform as you move through the turn to bounce up in to the next turn.
You’re right to say that simply bouncing up and down by itself won’t make you turn. But as well as bouncing we also tip the skis on an angle so their natural shape, plus how much we can bend them (another outcome of bouncing), makes them follow a curved path. Hence, we turn! Other stuff is at play, of course, principally we’d typically twist the skis to create a steering angle at the beginning of the turn in the ‘up’ phase of the bounce.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rob@rar,
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we also tip the skis on an angle so their natural shape, plus how much we can bend them (another outcome of bouncing), makes them follow a curved path. Hence, we turn! Other stuff is at play, of course, principally we’d typically twist the skis to create a steering angle at the beginning of the turn in the ‘up’ phase of the bounce.
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Makes total sense. My Swiss instructor didn't bother with any of that, by way of explanation!
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| Hurtle wrote: |
@rob@rar,
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we also tip the skis on an angle so their natural shape, plus how much we can bend them (another outcome of bouncing), makes them follow a curved path. Hence, we turn! Other stuff is at play, of course, principally we’d typically twist the skis to create a steering angle at the beginning of the turn in the ‘up’ phase of the bounce.
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Makes total sense. My Swiss instructor didn't bother with any of that, by way of explanation! |
As an introduction I think plenty of instructors find a gentle pitch and get their client to ski in a straight line making the bouncing action, then start to introduce a gentle turn. I’m not terribly keen on that approach, nor bouncing more generally, as I think for people learning to ski in soft snow that high cadence, short radius turn is a bit too much to ask. With wider skis, which bend a bit more easily than the skis typically being used when bouncing Powders 8s were de rigueur, I think a longer radius turn is a bit easier all round.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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To address some of the points above.... I certainly talk about the 'starting a bounce on a trampoline' - its more the rebound from the ski / snow means the ski starts to become 'lighter' and the forward action through the snow allows less effort to turn the skis. Bounce or whatever you want to call it has a relationship with how quickly the skis may come around in relation to how steep / fast you are going as well as how deep and heavy the snow is. In some situations you cannot really come around quick enough with some added input such as this... perhaps its 'old school' but modern freeride type turns are only one 'outcome' down the mountain and for 99.999% of us you can't have that type of turn in say a narrow steep colouir without killing yourself so it needs to be added as a skill. Please note I always talk about a 'tool box' and using the correct thing at the correct time and for most people to get 'started' getting a 'bounce on' will allow progress to be made! Finally its worth remembering that we try and talk about 'outcomes' in terms of performance and not inputs so getting focused on inputs being right or wrong can sometimes miss the point of just 'perfoming'
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@rob@rar, I like your descriptions.
Somewhere in the house, I have a book from the 80s, on skiing powder and what to do if caught in an avalanche - by Martin Epp (Mountain Guide).
He said that a strong Up Unweighting movement could trip you up. His advice was to bounce down, like you are on a weighing scales and want to move the dial to make you look temporarily heavier. The resulting springboard like effect from the skis as they compress the snow, would bring you to the surface, where you could then turn...which is just another way of describing the movement.
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@Old Fartbag,
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@rob@rar, I like your descriptions.
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Me too, and I could understand them, even though I've never been on a trampoline in my life.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| ...His advice was to bounce down, like you are on a weighing scales and want to move the dial to make you look temporarily heavier. |
I think one of the biggest problems skiers have when making their first turns in soft snow is that they are anxious and snatch at the start of the turn, which can all too easily trip them up as skis don't like changing direction suddenly in soft snow. I think there's a danger that encouraging a fast movement like 'bouncing' can contribute to that. I think that's part of what Martin App might mean in your book when he talks about too strong an upward bounce.
My focus when I'm in genuinely deep snow is to build pressure through the turn, although I tend not to think of "bouncing down" but "pressing down", resisting and building the pressure around the turn by using muscle tension in my legs. This will bend the skis and build a platform by compressing the snow underneath my skis, so at the end of the turn I can unload the tension in the skis and press against the platform to rise up to the top, or out, of the snow and create a small steering angle as I start the next turn. You can see that effect at play in this sequence:
To get back to the OP, consciously or subconsciously leaning back will undoubtedly lead to muscle fatigue. Tip dive is probably less of an issue than many people imagine it to be, but if the snow is hard work, dense, perhaps more likely to trip you up, I will adjust my fore/aft a bit, but only two the extent of pressing down through my heels rather than pressing down through the middle of my feet. It;'s not a big adjustment, but for me it works. It was some feedback given to me by Andy Jerram of BASS Morzine when I was struggling in some less than pleasant snow on a training course a few years back. Really made a difference for me. But if the snow is as good as we would like it to be, just crack on and make the skis turn. The snow's so benign that you can make anything work 
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I wasn't bad on a trampoline - but my skills sadly didn't translate well into off piste skiing.  Having managed a descent in La Grave (though what we were skiing could not even remotely be described as "powder") I sadly decided I'd started too late in life.
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@rob@rar, I must look out the book and see precisely what he says....but what you say seems very sensible to me - even to the point of possibly making the first turn a wedge turn - to take away that initial anxiety that you mention and stop that fast movement putting you on your head.
Back in the day, I was given a tip of pushing your feet forward when unweighting in heavy powder...I wonder if this is similar to your adaption above?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| I was given a tip of pushing your feet forward when unweighting in heavy powder...I wonder if this is similar to your adaption above? |
Maybe, although for my simple brain that sounds super-complicated. Pressing through my heels to finish the turn in heavy snow is a simple sensation I can easily imagine and feel when it's happening, whereas pushing both feet forward at transition would tie me up in knots.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| I was given a tip of pushing your feet forward when unweighting in heavy powder...I wonder if this is similar to your adaption above? |
Maybe, although for my simple brain that sounds super-complicated. Pressing through my heels to finish the turn in heavy snow is a simple sensation I can easily imagine and feel when it's happening, whereas pushing both feet forward at transition would tie me up in knots. |
I would like to say it worked for me - but skiing well in heavy powder on straight skis, was beyond my ken. 
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Back in the day, I was given a tip of pushing your feet forward when unweighting in heavy powder...
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Used to be referred to as a 'jet turn' wasn't it? Of course rockered skis have changed the need for it but was a predecessor of the dolphin turn which I would love to master 
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You know it makes sense.
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@rob@rar, what a great series of pics, I hope you paid the camera man the appropriate fees 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| snowheid wrote: |
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Back in the day, I was given a tip of pushing your feet forward when unweighting in heavy powder...
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Used to be referred to as a 'jet turn' wasn't it? Of course rockered skis have changed the need for it but was a predecessor of the dolphin turn which I would love to master |
If not a full Jet Turn, I suspect it was a close relation.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Old Fartbag, oh the fabled jet turn!! I remember reading all about it 30+ years ago as a way to ski moguls!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kitenski wrote: |
| I remember reading all about it 30+ years ago as a way to ski moguls!! |
....with the emphasis on the "+". 
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@kitenski, I was told, when I was trying (and failing) to learn how to ski in Verbier in the 70s, that the gigantic moguls I could see, each with a very sharp, vertical cliff edge on one side, were created by people doing jet turns. I had and have no idea whether or not this was true, mainly because I didn't have a clue what a jet turn was, and still don't. I more or less gave up trying to learn how to ski for many years after that, my experience in Verbier was so traumatic - very little snow (people had to be bussed to other resorts) and what there was bunched up into those horrific moguls.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @kitenski, I was told, when I was trying (and failing) to learn how to ski in Verbier in the 70s, that the gigantic moguls I could see, each with a very sharp, vertical cliff edge on one side, were created by people doing jet turns. I had and have no idea whether or not this was true, mainly because I didn't have a clue what a jet turn was, and still don't. I more or less gave up trying to learn how to ski for many years after that, my experience in Verbier was so traumatic - very little snow (people had to be bussed to other resorts) and what there was bunched up into those horrific moguls. |
I had one class lesson in Verbier in the very early 80s. We were being shown how to do short turns. As I couldn't get the hang of them at all, I asked the young Instructor if he could explain further. What I received was probably the single most unhelpful piece of instruction that I have ever received (which is why I remember it). His reply was "How do you walk?" I said I had no problem walking, but was in his class to learn to ski.
I then ended up having private lessons with 2 other people....which is another story.
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| snowheid wrote: |
http://youtube.com/v/b2ixGC5uDCE
Relevant part is 2:45= 3:30 |
Excellent tutorial @snowheid thanks for sharing!!
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The guy in the video gives a very clear explanation.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| snowheid wrote: |
It's very like bouncing on a trampoline - it compresses the snow under the skis and forms a platform which the skis ride up into a float phase where the skis can be turned into next turn.
I believe there is some sort of song about it but not sure that will help with the technicalities  |
I'm pretty sure that ain't going to work, you are moving remember, so you make the platform then you've moved off it!! Bouncing up and down is very old skool straight ski stuff IMHO |
It absolutely does work on modern skis. It may not be NECESSARY because you may have sufficient float to unweight off without building a base but it still works. I will sometimes do it if I'm not on (really) fat skis and the pitch is such I haven't got that much speed for my first few turns
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
@rob@rar,
| Quote: |
we also tip the skis on an angle so their natural shape, plus how much we can bend them (another outcome of bouncing), makes them follow a curved path. Hence, we turn! Other stuff is at play, of course, principally we’d typically twist the skis to create a steering angle at the beginning of the turn in the ‘up’ phase of the bounce.
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Makes total sense. My Swiss instructor didn't bother with any of that, by way of explanation! |
As an introduction I think plenty of instructors find a gentle pitch and get their client to ski in a straight line making the bouncing action, then start to introduce a gentle turn. I’m not terribly keen on that approach, nor bouncing more generally, as I think for people learning to ski in soft snow that high cadence, short radius turn is a bit too much to ask. With wider skis, which bend a bit more easily than the skis typically being used when bouncing Powders 8s were de rigueur, I think a longer radius turn is a bit easier all round. |
Realistically though, if you are in Europe and want to ski powder you need to be able to access the less easy stuff like in the trees and you absolutely need to be able to make tight turns for that! Mind you, the fact that the open slopes get tracked very quickly and the trees can still be giving you the goods a couple fo days later probably proves that not that many skiers bother learning to it anymore!
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More helpfully - tip dive etc
On occasions you don't have enough float for the speed and snow depth (a function generally of slope angle and snow density plus of course ski surface area and rocker). In that case keeping your tips from diving can be an issue. There are two approaches to keeping the tips out
1. sit back - aka the wrong one as you lose control over your tips
2. contract the small muscles in the front of your shin (the ones that pull your toes up) - this raises the tips while keeping you centred - the right approach
The main problem with 2 is that those muscles are small and fatigue quickly so you won't be able to do that all day but it can help you through a sticky section.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Realistically though, if you are in Europe and want to ski powder you need to be able to access the less easy stuff like in the trees ... |
Sure, but not as an intro to skiing powder. Most skiers new to skiing in soft snow have enough to cope with in an open environment. Having trees, perhaps quite tightly spaced trees, to also contend with would add to the complexity a little more than I think is necessary. I think a medium radius turn on a modest pitch, perhaps starting on firm snow so you get in to a rhythm then taking that turn cadence in to the powder without hesitating, is the easiest introduction. Once you have gained some confidence and comfort with your skis being in soft snow then you can look to change the turn shape, perhaps making them tighter with a bit of bounce or more open with a bit more speed.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| I'm pretty sure that ain't going to work... |
Well it works for the people who do it, on their modern skis. It's not necessary, but it definitely doesn't stop them skiing well. I don't like their style, but that's a fashion thing.
I'm not sure who still teaches that way - it ought to be in their manuals, but I can't be bothered to go and look ... it's all good.
When people fail to ski well in deep snow, it's not usually anywhere near this, though. Novices will traverse, then stem or attempt a snow plough, and either force their way around some kind of tiring slow turn or fall. I think the bounce comes later, once they've discovered the joy of the fall line. I'd guess they probably only bounce when doing those Powder 8 turns.
To me, the issue is if you absorb the upwards force at the peak of the turn, or let it bounce you up. The bouncers simply don't absorb the "up" as much as I do. Perhaps they think they need to "unweight", although that's a bit odd in powder if you think about it. Unless it's crusty or something. I did ski powder a lot in old school GS skis and don't remember bouncing; to me it's always been more of an angulate/ carve/ bank concept, even when doing Powder 8 turns. But then I never learned to snowplough
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@phil_w, if you are doing real powder 8s then carve/bank is not enough, you need some steering too. AT the end of the turn (skis well across the fall line) you have compressed (flexed at the knee/hip) and when you extend you steer the skis back towards the fall line. No skis make that tight a radius by carve/bank alone.
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You know it makes sense.
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| jedster wrote: |
2. contract the small muscles in the front of your shin (the ones that pull your toes up) - this raises the tips while keeping you centred - the right approach
The main problem with 2 is that those muscles are small and fatigue quickly so you won't be able to do that all day but it can help you through a sticky section. |
When I first managed to find those muscles to address my lean back style it did feel like quite a lot of work, but training them, and consciously keeping them contracted _all the time_ while skiing they soon get used to it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
2. contract the small muscles in the front of your shin (the ones that pull your toes up) - this raises the tips while keeping you centred - the right approach
The main problem with 2 is that those muscles are small and fatigue quickly so you won't be able to do that all day but it can help you through a sticky section. |
When I first managed to find those muscles to address my lean back style it did feel like quite a lot of work, but training them, and consciously keeping them contracted _all the time_ while skiing they soon get used to it. |
I suppose I should do some work!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@jedster, 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jedster, ? in powder radius doesn't matter, surely??
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| No skis make that tight a radius by carve/bank alone. |
Sure, if I need to do "powder 8s" to match skiers, I have to force the board to turn tighter. I'm still banking and carving in my head.
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| in powder radius doesn't matter |
Not to bouncers, I guess
With snowboards a long-radius sidecut would come with other design features, but I don't think the radius (or shape) of the sidecut matters at all in powder. A snowboard with a 6.6m radius can be driven to match any snowboard or skier turn, despite skis at least having much larger radii. It's only the particularly tight turns which require additional input from the legs and hips. Flex pattern and taper are much more important I think.
There's a paper online somewhere about the relationship between sidecut radius and turn radius for skis/ snowboards on hardpack, working from simple mechanics. It's interesting, but not the whole story, as nearly all turns even on hardpack aren't simple railed carves. Which reminds me I once rode an American carving board, which had a "locked in" feel and wanted to do only one specific turn radius... not a comfortable ride in the real world.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @jedster, ? in powder radius doesn't matter, surely?? |
Well quite but I was referring to the radius of the turn that you are trying to make in a powder 8 not the one implied by the sidecut geometry. I was distinguishing the turn shape you can make by angulating the ski IN the snow and bending it into an arc (more base than edge) vs needing to steer the ski via feet and knee rotation.
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