@pam w, plough parallel is a phase of the BASI central theme or IASI core skier developement.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@under a new name, It's the link between snowplough and parallel, so different things done with the inside ski. Used to be known as "Basic Swing". Experienced skiers often find it a challenge to do.
plough into the turn to control speed and initiate the turn then parallel, a bit like a stem christie much loved by ski tourers
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
ski wrote:
@under a new name, It's the link between snowplough and parallel, so different things done with the inside ski. Used to be known as "Basic Swing". Experienced skiers often find it a challenge to do.
I'm not sure this was what was meant by the Basic Spring turn, which AIUI included a lift of the inside ski with a sudden movement across from the plough to the parallel shape, whereas plough-parallel keeps both skis in contact with the snow at all times and employs a rotation of both, in the same direction, just at different rates to each other.
As part of the Central Theme it's useful to get the student used to bringing the skis back to parallel, known as 'matching' the skis, after the fall line and then do it earlier and earlier in the turn until there's no discernable plough shape at all, while still using pretty much the same body movements allowing them to control when and where they match the skis depending on the conditions for each turn independently from the last. The example video @davidof posted is pretty much the starting point, with the whole thing becoming more smooth and dynamic as the student masters it.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
I'm not sure this was what was meant by the Basic Spring turn, which AIUI included a lift of the inside ski with a sudden movement across from the plough to the parallel shape, whereas plough-parallel keeps both skis in contact with the snow at all times and employs a rotation of both, in the same direction, just at different rates to each other.
IIRC that was the Stem Christie, Basic Swing is the same as Plough Parallel. When I was doing Alpine BASI things, had to demo both Stem Christie and Basic Swing --- they are not the same!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
ski wrote:
Quote:
I'm not sure this was what was meant by the Basic Spring turn, which AIUI included a lift of the inside ski with a sudden movement across from the plough to the parallel shape, whereas plough-parallel keeps both skis in contact with the snow at all times and employs a rotation of both, in the same direction, just at different rates to each other.
IIRC that was the Stem Christie, Basic Swing is the same as Plough Parallel. When I was doing Alpine BASI things, had to demo both Stem Christie and Basic Swing --- they are not the same!
Out of interest, how do they differ? Surely they both involve starting the turn with a stem and finishing it parallel? Is it the width of the stem?
IIRC I was taught the Stem Christie.....and as confidence, timing and weight transfer improved and speed increased (which helped the unweighted ski to "float" in beside the outside ski) - The stem got narrower and narrower until (hopefully) it vanished and you then achieved the Parallel Christie.
However, on "Straight" skis, that last hint of a stem could be devilishly difficult to remove - as it became a safety blanket, which removed the need for the full commitment at the start of the turn that was required. Back in the 80s, it was common to teach the lifting of a ski to ensure full weight transfer - which was another hard habit to remove, once it became ingrained.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 21-06-23 20:56; edited 1 time in total
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
Out of interest, how did they differ? Surely they both involve starting the turn with a stem and finishing it parallel? Is it the width of the stem?
Stem Christie had skis stepped into plough and parallel... so skis stepped (or slid) out into a stem, and back in to parallel. Still a good technique for ski tourers in awful snow + don't fall here situations.
Plough Parallel/Basic Swing Feet apart -- so outside ski rotated to make a plough. Bot skis rotated to make turn, inside ski flattened and rotated to make skis parallel at end of turn. Feet stay hip width apart throughout turn.
The difference between them is that the Plough Parallel requires the inside ski to be flattened and rotated, whereas a Stem Christie just has the ski stepped back to make parallel. PP/BS results in feet apart, and active steering of both skis. SC does not require this.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@ski, Thank you.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Stem Christie happens a lot in beginners trying to do a plough parallel, particularly when you're trying to teach it on the dry ski slope where sliding the skis is more difficult than on snow.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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The stem got narrower and narrower until (hopefully)
The "hopefully" is the word that counts! To ski parallel you need to steer both skis. To start a new turn you need to steer or change edges on both skis at the same time. Lots of skiers never learn this, so if you look very carefully, you'll see a tiny stem at the start of the turn. SC was/is a safety first turn -- initially overcoming the difficult equipment we had. PP/BS developed specifcally to enable the skills needed to ski parallel.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
...if you look very carefully, you'll see a tiny stem at the start of the turn. ...
It's almost as if someone taught them all a bad habit.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Here is a "difficult snow" stem turn, both the outer and inner ski are lifted in this example. About 90% of the ski tourers I see in the alps ski like this all the time, I imagine they've only done limited piste skiing and no lessons.
and in breakable crust even this may not be enough to get you around - the stemming of the outside ski would work but bringing the inner ski around would be hard and a more dynamic and committed approach might be needed. Or ski across the mountain until you find acceptable snow.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
ski wrote:
Quote:
The stem got narrower and narrower until (hopefully)
The "hopefully" is the word that counts! To ski parallel you need to steer both skis. To start a new turn you need to steer or change edges on both skis at the same time. Lots of skiers never learn this, so if you look very carefully, you'll see a tiny stem at the start of the turn. SC was/is a safety first turn -- initially overcoming the difficult equipment we had. PP/BS developed specifcally to enable the skills needed to ski parallel.
Exactly so. It was a very deliberate use of the word.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@davidof, nice video and good explanation , would be cool to have shown the demos in breakable crust as well though to make the point better
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
In “difficult” snow, the inside ski has a tendency to cross the tip of the newly diverted outside skis.
A rapid and deliberate shift of weight to the new outside ski is mandatory so the inside ski can be unweighted and lifted to match the new direction of the outside ski.
@davidof, nice video and good explanation , would be cool to have shown the demos in breakable crust as well though to make the point better
I couldn't find a true breakable crust demo video, I guess people don't like filming their worst skiing.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The key to breakable crust is to use smooth movements, moving from parallel to plough without lifting the ski, as per earlier discussions about rotating the skis while maintaining pressure on them both. Once you're in the plough shape your outside ski builds a platform against which the turn can be initiated, while crucially not putting so much pressure vertically through the crust, but more horizontally across the surface. The inside ski can then be lifted back into parallel if desired, while the weight is still on the outside ski, with no sudden increase or decrease of pressure.
This works almost like magic. Was shown it one day years ago with Phil Smith on completely rotten snow in al Tania, late in April. Three of the group, including myself and my wife, got it and we were miraculously able to ski fast and fluently without breaking through. Three others did not do so well, with frequent breakthroughs sometimes down to waist-deep.
I know I'm partly to blame, but how did we manage to end up with skiing breakable crust on a thread about doing an L1 in a snowdome?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@ski, TBF it's not so far removed; we've arrived at an example of a situation where the skills needed for the L1 can be used in very tricky conditions, where many advanced skiers who've not tried to do a snowplough since they graduated from the nursery slopes can, and do, struggle.
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