 Poster: A snowHead
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| Whitegoldsbrother wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
Just for clarity, when I talk about carving turns, I mean skiing in such a fashion that the tracks left by the skis are two very sharp, continuous, S shaped, parallel lines left in the snow with zero side slip.
My instructors in the 1980s had us carving the old 2m, massive turn radius skis but this was doing three or four turns on the entire length of the piste or a quick, side slipped turn at the edge of the piste, followed by an almost straight carve across the piste. |
Just for clarity, why would you? A carve's a carve, a skid's a skid. What hard to understand? Why do we need clarity?
And why do we always need to reference the 80s and straight skis? |
Because it is quite clear from the answers on this thread and observing the skiing of some people who wax lyrically about carving but can't actually carve their turns that some definition had to be applied. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ah, so one-upmanship then
Just for clarity, of course
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm not sure why a holiday-maker, as opposed to a racer, would obsess about 'pure' carved turns, since the average piste has too many people on it for it to be safe to do many turns of that sort (by definition really fast) in any event. I wonder if tangowaggon finds many long, uncrowded slopes on which he can demonstrate his prowess. I guess the Dolomites might be as good a place as any to find such slopes. 
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@shiva_71, firstly, loving your honest and there's probably a funny story in there. Secondly, if you loved your old skis then buy something similar, even if they are a bit longer and enjoy them.
Ignore the tremendous amount of guff on here about rockers and carving and edging and blah blah blah. Unless you're a ski instructor you might notice the difference about 5% of the time given perfect conditions. Just go with what gives you most smiles per mile.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| tangowaggon wrote: |
the enforcers held their edge even when I pushed them as hard as my leg strength would allow.
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could that push be only as much as ones body weight? any morecabd there's no anchor to gain any force against(nothing to do with this topic just something in my mind)
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
the enforcers held their edge even when I pushed them as hard as my leg strength would allow.
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could that push be only as much as ones body weight? any morecabd there's no anchor to gain any force against(nothing to do with this topic just something in my mind) |
Loading increase from body weight amplified by centrifugal force when running radius at speed ? Ever felt that compression coming on to your legs as you build up a constant radius ? All part of the fun of higher energy/cadence in skiing really good carved turns with the edges hooked up well.
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@Hurtle, I fear you are skiing in the wrong places (I do frequently as well). Out of high season the pistes in Monterosa are often quite empty.
Dammit I've just had a "why did I feck my ACL and can't ski right now moment".
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| ski3 wrote: |
| Mother hucker wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
the enforcers held their edge even when I pushed them as hard as my leg strength would allow.
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could that push be only as much as ones body weight? any morecabd there's no anchor to gain any force against(nothing to do with this topic just something in my mind) |
Loading increase from body weight amplified by centrifugal force when running radius at speed ? Ever felt that compression coming on to your legs as you build up a constant radius ? All part of the fun of higher energy/cadence in skiing really good carved turns with the edges hooked up well. |
can that force be greater than you body weight though is the question I'm asking?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@under a new name, true enough they are empty, but not completely so. Enjoyment of carving can never be more important than knowing that anyone else might be just be over the blind roller. The same rules of the road apply - always being able to stop and avoid other piste users, and give them the courtesy of space. Coming down from Salati last week, the piste was 20m wide maybe more and effectively empty, yet I suddenly found someone coming from behind just 6 ft from me. Why? Because they were joining their friends at the side of the piste. Safe? Yes safe enough. Necessary and courteous? Not really.
I hope your ACL heals and you get back to enjoying the snow again soon.
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@under a new name, aw, hugs. Actually, just after I posted that, I thought of Monterosa. And it does happen in the Dolomites too. Stevem managed, in early January, to capture a photo of me in one of those rare moments when I was on the edges of my all-mountain skis. But I'm not a ski god like tangogwaggon.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
| ski3 wrote: |
| Mother hucker wrote: |
| tangowaggon wrote: |
the enforcers held their edge even when I pushed them as hard as my leg strength would allow.
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could that push be only as much as ones body weight? any morecabd there's no anchor to gain any force against(nothing to do with this topic just something in my mind) |
Loading increase from body weight amplified by centrifugal force when running radius at speed ? Ever felt that compression coming on to your legs as you build up a constant radius ? All part of the fun of higher energy/cadence in skiing really good carved turns with the edges hooked up well. |
can that force be greater than you body weight though is the question I'm asking? |
Most definitely, anything moving in that aspect will show increase over original mass, speed and radius affecting the accumulated total.
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You know it makes sense.
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@under a new name,
| Quote: |
Carving can be accomplished at very slow speeds however
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... as the hours of drills I've done with Inside Out attest, though I don't think that's quite what tangowaggon had in mind. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@motyl, more J-turns for you! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Hurtle,  cheers. I'm 9 days off the op (next Weds) and my brilliant physio is very happy with pre-hab. Fingers crossed. It's just very boring.
Back on topic, sort of, I was pondering the whole length of edge thing. I think it's a bit of a rabbit hole. I happen to have possessed several pairs of FIS race skis , from SLs to SGs (current stable, Volkl GS and SG, having binned the Nordica SLs after over-use but replacing them next season as I'll be limited to pistes for the first couple of months).
Without question they ALL delivered unspeakably high edge grip. All delivered courtesy of edge angle. And none of them need to be skied at warp speed to do so*
* That said, they all clearly liked best a degree of velocity, an icy slope and a firm grip on the collar.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 20-03-23 10:04; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Hurtle, oops cross post hahaha probably not. But my point stands
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mid March and mid week you're often rewarded with quite low number of skiers on a wide open piste.
Went out with pistuers before opening (they regularly do a little group in Les Arcs) total 30 skiers and wide open, empty crisply corduroyed piste for about an hour a lift to ourselves effectively and hardly saw anyone after initial dispersion.
Second week of January often like that too, out at day's end with virtually no other skiers nearby in Nendaz section of 4V. There's often circumstances like this at non peak times.
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@under a new name, very best of luck for the operation!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ski3, nice
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| under a new name wrote: |
Back on topic, sort of, I was pondering the whole length of edge thing. I think it's a bit of a rabbit hole. I happen to have possessed several pairs of FIS race skis , from SLs to SGs (current stable, Volkl GS and SG, having binned the Nordica SLs after over-use but replacing them next season as I'll be limited to pistes for the first couple of months).
Without question they ALL delivered unspeakably high edge grip. All delivered courtesy of edge angle. And none of them need to be skied at warp speed to do so*
* That said, they all clearly liked best a degree of velocity, an icy slope and a firm grip on the collar. |
Would you agree re the grip of a FIS GS v SL ski:
- More available edge gives more grip, provided equal (or more) pressure is applied along that edge
- A GS ski can comfortably be skied faster than an SL ski and thus generate the pressure needed due to the turning forces
It is a given that the Tune is the same on both the pairs of skis.
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@Old Fartbag, surely the longer edge has a greater contact area so applying the same force will produce less pressure (pressure is force divided by area). Are you saying you apply much more force through the legs with a gs ski than a slalom ski? If so how.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Hurtle, Thank you
@Old Fartbag, Not in my experience. SLs massively grippier (well, Nordica SLs vs Völkl GS (Völkl have a rep of being a bit softer, I've heard?)). It's all about side cut and torsional rigidity.
No to second. All about edge angle. Can ski a GS quite happily very slowly. However, a GS arguably more comfortable as a daily driver.
None of them demand warp speed. Have pootled around on the SGs even in powder.
Simon Origone teaches on his Flying K speed skis ...
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| johnE wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, surely the longer edge has a greater contact area so applying the same force will produce less pressure (pressure is force divided by area). Are you saying you apply much more force through the legs with a gs ski than a slalom ski? If so how. |
I am saying:
1. Considerable force is generated through turning at speed.
2. A GS ski is designed for higher speed, so is able to be skied faster than an SL ski and thus will have greater force on its edges at those higher speeds.
3. That extra force will make up for the weight of the skier being dissipated by the longer ski.
ie. A FIS GS ski can more than make up for any lack of pressure on the edges, due to the extra speed it can handle.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wow this got pretty technical! But thanks for all the comments. As i mentioned, as someone who prefers wider turns, i think the extra length might actually feel even better. Im crap at short turns anyways! I would like to get a pair of the same model (Sultan 85) that i lost, one guy in the states wants $120 without bindings plus shipping so this pair that i can go in person and pick up here for €25 seems like a good deal.
In the meantime if anyone can recommend a decent more recent AM ski, 80-90 underfoot, from a few years back that i could pickup a bit cheaper, that would be great!
@under a new name, sorry to hear about the ACL good luck with the op!
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It’s an interesting argument…and we could probably do with a racer to answer it….given that FIS GS race skis have a 27m turn radius, I suspect the vast majority here might struggle to find sufficient opportunity (piste width, other skiers around etc) to fully put the GS side of the equation to test.
When I tested a variety of skis before making a purchase a few years ago, the shop owner offered some FIS rated GS Stöckli skis to try (they may have been 185s)….I declined….he chuckled….
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You know it makes sense.
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| shiva_71 wrote: |
| Wow this got pretty technical! |
Any excuse to talk bollox! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Would you agree re the grip of a FIS GS v SL ski:
- More available edge gives more grip, provided equal (or more) pressure is applied along that edge
.[/quote]
Nope, quite the opposite when trying to get edge grip on ice, shorter edge gives more pressure per cm & more likely to penetrate the surface to get grip & prevent side slide, this is basic physics logic, experience with short vs long edge confirms this, rather like comparing the abilty to grip ice with the head of a nail vs the point, it also confirms that the longer edge is more stable at higher speeds.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@tangowaggon, what is “pressure per cm”?
Years ago I remember having a discussion with a fellow motorcyclist about the force the tyres were applying to the road when going around a bend. The force normal to the road surface and hence the friction force available is always the same and is equal to the weight of the bike and riders. It made no difference what the angle of lean was or how much the suspension was compressed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| johnE wrote: |
@tangowaggon, what is “pressure per cm”?
Years ago I remember having a discussion with a fellow motorcyclist about the force the tyres were applying to the road when going around a bend. The force normal to the road surface and hence the friction force available is always the same and is equal to the weight of the bike and riders. It made no difference what the angle of lean was or how much the suspension was compressed. |
The motorcycle tyre isn't cutting the surface as a ski is designed to do, making the comparison difficult.
In reality, the motorcycle tyre is squeezed into a larger contract patch to improve that effect by deformation of it's carcass, but has this whole transaction influenced by rubber compound which doesn't exist in ski edges.
For our purposes here though , the hardness of the ice, snow, surface does influence the effect we see. The harder the surface the more towards point conact will yeald greater engagement to provide "grip" in reality.
This is one reason to provide corduroy type surface, to increase the likelyhood of ski engagement over a wider range of cold surface condition.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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This thread seems to be disappearing up its own backside
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Dr John wrote: |
| This thread seems to be disappearing up its own backside |
Well you don't HAVE to read it
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@ski3, hmmm, I see your reasoning but I don't think you're right. Also, I am reasonably sure it's merely a side effect of the machine used, not a designed effect.
Also, when they groom slush in the evening and it freezes hard overnight ...
The hardness of the edge vs the snow however is definitely a factor.
Pressure per anything really isn't. If you've ever skied DH skis (or indeed anything >215cms) you'll know what I mean. No problem getting grip.
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| johnE wrote: |
@tangowaggon, what is “pressure per cm”?
Years remember having a discussion with a fellow motorcyclist about the force the tyres were applying to the road when going around a bend. The force normal to the road surface and hence the friction force available is always the same and is equal to the weight of the bike and riders. It made no difference what the angle of lean was or how much the suspension was compressed. |
Pressure per cm of ski edge = force (whatever that may be) / length of edge on the suface.
The motorcycle analogy is different, the grip of a bike tyre doesn't rely/depend on the tyre penetrating the road surface, yes the frictional force that resists the cornering force from the bike will hopefully be equal at all times, the shear force between the two will vary according to the cornering speed.but in my experience, the cornering force can exceed the frictional force, resulting in myself & many other bikers sliding down the road on their bottom. A tyre grips by allowing the hard road surface to deform the soft tyre, a ski grips by the sharp, hard edges penetrating the soft snow
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Pressure and force are not the same.
Pressure = force/area so pressure per cm = force/(area*length) it doesn't make sense. Pressure is measured in Pascals, force in Newtons
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@tangowaggon, plus, the edge is pretty thin. And cutting into the surface. Pressure isn't the issue.
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FAQ
