 Poster: A snowHead
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The 1-5 scale is more than adequate/usable for those of us who read and consider the data.
There is simply no mode of presentation that can protect individuals who will ski it "anyway".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
I still think yesterday should have been avi 4 base on the amount of snow, wind and visible avi activity?
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Pretty sure I got a L4 warning from the Swiss Emergency Alert app yesterday. Didn't check the local one, as I wasn't skiing, but it does perhaps go to show that the national/regional assessments may sometimes be different from those posted by resorts, on the basis, I assume, that a resort one is also taking into account actual conditions and geography of the resort rather than the more general area risk. |
Yesterday it was 4 in Champery but 3 in Verbier on Meteo Suisse
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
Are side of pistes and itineraries always avy controlled? Where does side of piste become off-piste? How many of us can accurately judge slope angle, which is often not particularly uniform.ome close the kinds of accessible in bounds stuff in n America. |
Yes itineraries are controlled as is anything that can run onto a piste. My point is not that everyone can judge slope angle but that much of the resort terrain is under 30% and therefore essentially safe.
The fatal avalanches in Verbier were far from the pistes and not in places that people would end up in by chance. They are typically strong skiers pushing the limits that are getting caught, not unsuspecting red run tourists.
You won’t stop these people pushing the limits without shutting off the access, which is not the European approach, thankfully.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Nickski wrote: |
For example it can sometimes avalanche onto Chassoure and it avalanches a lot if you go round the corner. I don’t.
I remember a statement in a video that approximately 90% of fatal avalanches occur within 24 hours of the snow falling and the majority of those are skier/boarder triggered.
It does seem a bit of a numbers game. If you ski that type of stuff often enough.
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There is a sign on the Chassoure itinerary that says « Good skiers only ». I wonder if they should put one on the Mouche entry and Highway/Stairway traverse after a dump saying « suicidal skiers only »
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Good to know. In Verbier (it seems standard in Switzerland) they are only opened after they are secured and you can see the bombholes. In theory I believe you are supposed to stay within 15m of the marker poles
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@boarder2020, I expected the telegraph article to be ill-informed, but in fact it was very good and informative, raising several good points. One of them is the meaning of "controlled", which is mainly used in the French and German sense of the word, which translates more accurately to "checked" in English, and is talking about Ski Patrol checking it for any wayward skiers at the end of the day. Should not be confused with "avalanche-protected".
I've skied itineraries in many resorts, mainly in Switzerland and France, and would never assume anything from them being marked on a piste-map. Things have got a little more consistent over the years, with the yellow (on the map) marking being almost universal, but even from one resort to another the definition of the yellow run varies. In some places, Engelberg being one that I skied a lot over ten years of having an apartment there, they are not called itineraries at all, simply "very very difficult" pistes compared with just "very difficult" for a black. As such they are avalanche-controlled, marked with yellow poles and patrolled just like any other marked run. I know this, but would never assume the same meaning in another resort, so like any visitor I would always check exactly what is meant in any given place.
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In Austria, an itinerary (route) is avalanche protected (assuming you stay close to the poles). Some areas have red routes and black routes. If the poles are not in place, the route is not “open”. As mentioned in the article, some resorts bash their routes, which seems to defeat the point 
Some resorts have advertised freeride areas with suggested lines on a map. These are usually just wide shaded areas, and should not be confused with ski routes, as they are not avalanche controlled. However, ski resorts don't generally like picking people out of rocks and avalanches, so the suggestions aren't usually too extreme.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Still showing 3+ here after 2 days of consolidation. How is the risk the same as 2 days ago with all the big slides???
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm not really sure what an itinerary would be in France, legally speaking. There are pistes - marked and avalanche controlled - and the rest of the mountains. I know the 7 Laux has some back bowls which they open and close but they will be part of the PIDA although I'm uncertain how they are marked.
When I lived in Davos there were some excellent itinerary routes. Not avalanche controlled but they only opened them when the risk was 1 or 2. Marked with a single pole and as said above, you were supposed to stay within a few meters of the pole.
If anyone wants to take a look back at the last 20 years of fatal avalanches in France and the key points of the bulletin they can do so my my site: https://pistehors.com/facets/metadata.edit_template=article&category=Incident%20Report/category/0/10
you have to look at the old site for pre 2015 incidents.
Interesting one this week, a Brit caught in Serre Chevalier ski touring, buried up to his shoulders. He had an airbag but left the trigger in his ruck-sack. In this case his airbag was increasing, not decreasing the risk of being injured or killed.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Still showing 3+ here after 2 days of consolidation. How is the risk the same as 2 days ago with all the big slides??? |
3= today isn't it? There is a PWL in your area, I'd imagine that is the reason the consolidation has been slow. Clearly there is an issue on a wide north sector at altitude.
Remember 3 means the risk is localized, so even if some slopes have gone other slabs may still be in place.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
He had an airbag but left the trigger in his ruck-sack
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 One of those "Oh shit!" moments. Like when you realise you've just locked your car keys in the car. Or a bit worse.....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
He had an airbag but left the trigger in his ruck-sack
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One of those "Oh shit!" moments. Like when you realise you've just locked your car keys in the car. Or a bit worse..... |
wasn't there a guy in Serre Chevalier who triggered his airbag in his car? Seems to be a place for senile moments.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| davidof wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Still showing 3+ here after 2 days of consolidation. How is the risk the same as 2 days ago with all the big slides??? |
3= today isn't it? There is a PWL in your area, I'd imagine that is the reason the consolidation has been slow. Clearly there is an issue on a wide north sector at altitude.
Remember 3 means the risk is localized, so even if some slopes have gone other slabs may still be in place. |
Yes sorry you are right 3 =. Pisteur said it’s stabilized but be careful anything high, steep, not skied in the shade is still delicate
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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So : interesting comment via guide ...
In summary: "In Switzerland level-3 is considered the normal avalanche rating in mid-winter (considerable). Level 4 is not a rating considered safe skiers - generally it is used to mark danger to roads, houses or infastructure. Or conditions unsafe for backcountry travel on a few days per year
Probably best to read full SLF description below:
https://www.slf.ch/en/avalanche-bulletin-and-snow-situation/about-the-avalanche-bulletin/danger-levels.html
Summary: this confirms something I have often thought - that swiss SLF use level 4 less frequently than other nations I am familiar with.. Though I guess to mitigate this they do have have 3- to 3+ sub ratings.
Table below summarises the Swiss view of international ratings. Interesting thing to note is:
a) exponential increase in danger as rating increases
b) level 4 or above is extreme risk / not considered safe for off piste skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| In Austria, an itinerary (route) is avalanche protected (assuming you stay close to the poles). Some areas have red routes and black routes. If the poles are not in place, the route is not “open”. As mentioned in the article, some resorts bash their routes, which seems to defeat the point |
There's quite a bit of variance between resorts on this point. I think the only nationwide rules that apply to ski routes are that they are avalanche controlled and must be opened/shut based on that risk, that they are marked on the ski map, and that they are marked in such a way that they can be skied also in bad visibility - so for example things like the Karrine and Seilbahnrinne couloirs at Nordkette have no poles because even in bad visibility you can only go one way, and at eg Lizum the ski route to Axams through the trees has no poles because it's also v clear that there's one way to go. AFAIK things like poles on the ground, if particular hazards (like cliffs) are marked, and if patrol sweeps are done at the end of the day, are down to the resorts to decide themselves (it's worth checking this info online or on the piste map for each resort just to know for sure).
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@clarky999, Ah yeah, good point about Nordkette, I haven't been up there in ages and had forgotten there are no poles on the route. However, I think they do have one to mark the entrance to the couloirs, and also use ropes to make sure it's clear if the route is closed. Also, they're pretty strict about not letting skiers onto the cable car if there's nothing open/it's too late in the day, so it's pretty easy to find out if they're open or not.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think a lot of people just don’t really care what the avi risk is. I see people here in Tignes rushing to get to a certain line first because they don’t want others to be first regardless of the avi rating. Others choose to take a sketchy aspect because ‘there’s still untracked in there’… some people just don’t care about the risk, or even if they saw it on a sign they think avis won’t happen to them, call that arrogance or inexperience if you wish, often whether something happens and you survive, or nothing happens it’s often luck over judgement that prevails.
I call it ‘line fever’, similar to summit fever (not the movie, but the movie is based on an actual condition)
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I agree with the “want to be first” mentality - largely coupled with a poor knowledge of avalanche safety and incorrectly assuming that the warning scale is linear not exponential resulting in a very low comprehension of the risk. Then add in a large dollop of confirmation bias (“this didn’t avalanche the last time I skied it”);peer pressure and therefore no need to check their potential lines against any warnings in (for example) the Swiss “White Risk” reports. This means that the majority would never consider talking to a pisteur (unlike BobinCH a few posts ago).
I think that a lot of people simply don’t understand the risks (rather than not caring) - which leaves some hope that it should be possible to communicate and eventually educate!
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| Extremophile wrote: |
| Others choose to take a sketchy aspect because ‘there’s still untracked in there’… |
There are 3 types of avalanche control in use across France. CatEx where explosives are dropped off cables, GasEz where gas is blown through pipes, and SweedEx where skandi snowboarders are sent in.
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| Dr John wrote: |
| Extremophile wrote: |
| Others choose to take a sketchy aspect because ‘there’s still untracked in there’… |
There are 3 types of avalanche control in use across France. CatEx where explosives are dropped off cables, GasEz where gas is blown through pipes, and SweedEx where skandi snowboarders are sent in. |
And not every aspect/gully/route gets bombed.
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