The Avalanche over here in Zürs involved 200 rsecue personel from all civil & emergency departments (most are volunteers who are immediately activated) This is well rehearsed in Austria..
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Mjit wrote:
Poogle wrote:
This is why, as a piste skier, I always have RECCO reflectors on my boots and clothing. You can buy them to stick and clip-on; and many garments and helmets come with them already attached. Austria is fully covered by the RECCO system, and detection can be done from a helicopter, as well as hand-held devices on the ground. I have one on each boot, and one on my helmet.
Our grizzled, dry humoured old mountain guide was very clear when asked about the difference between trancievers and RECCO tags - "Trancievers are for rescuing people alive, RECCO tags are just for the pisteurs to find bodies later on.".
This is totally true with off-piste skiing. Time is of the essence, and hopefully, skiers not caught in the avalanche can use their transceivers to locate those trapped. Any rescue services are most likely a long-way off, and off-piste can take time to reach. RECCO systems will be of little use here; and if you don't have transceivers, you are crazy.
But on-piste, it's a different matter. 99% of skiers in such situations will not have transceivers; but many will have RECCO reflectors on their clothing and helmets etc. Help will not be that far away from the piste-patrols and rescue teams, as there is lift-access and snowmobiles etc. And RECCO supply all their detection equipment free to ski resorts across the alps, as they make their money selling the reflectors.
And here is a short video, where the Head of Rescue in Zermatt states:
"I think if everyone had RECCO for us it would be heaven on earth, because people would be just so easy to find"
And here, the Assistant Rescue Manager of Chamonix, states:
"Everyone should be searchable, and I think today, the RECCO reflector, is the best way to make everyone searchable"
And of course RECCO also works for everyone: hikers, climbers, canoeists etc, as well as skiers and snowboarders.
So personally, I go with the recommendations of senior rescue staff from Zermatt and Chamonix, over the mystical "...grizzled, dry humoured old mountain guide"
@Poogle, it’s canoeists on piste that cause so many problems.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Agreed. The "body recovery" thing is what we say when people are proposing using Recco as an alternative to transceivers, which is precisely not what that poster suggested.
We can't re-purpose back country safety advice when discussing patrolled and controlled terrain. The difference matters, and confusing the two results in bad advice.
I rode with ski patrol all last week and at one point we we were discussing how much better the new scanners are.
The patrol controls that space, not old Euro guides, and they like you to have Recco.
I always wonder, what is the range of the devices that recognise ski passes? Could a portable device designed specifically for rescue achieve a range that would be useful in piste avalanche recoveries - all skiers will have their pass.
Recco might be a better, but not all ski clothes have them and their range will be limited too. I haven't done backcountry, but it sounds like the best feature of transceivers is that they work both ways so anyone not caught is able to start searching straight away.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
nozawaonsen wrote:
@Poogle, it’s canoeists on piste that cause so many problems.
I always wonder, what is the range of the devices that recognise ski passes? Could a portable device designed specifically for rescue achieve a range that would be useful in piste avalanche recoveries - all skiers will have their pass.
Recco might be a better, but not all ski clothes have them and their range will be limited too. I haven't done backcountry, but it sounds like the best feature of transceivers is that they work both ways so anyone not caught is able to start searching straight away.
Interestingly, there is some talk about using devices that detect illicit mobile phones in prisons and such-like, to find avalanche victims. I think there has been some discussion here on Snowheads as well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
j b wrote:
I always wonder, what is the range of the devices that recognise ski passes? Could a portable device designed specifically for rescue achieve a range that would be useful in piste avalanche recoveries - all skiers will have their pass.
Lift passes contain NFC (Near Field Communication) 'chips', similar to the ones in contactless bank card. These are passive electronic circuits that are powered by induction, similar to a wireless mobile phone charging pad and have a range of ~4cm. The lift gate has a reader and a magnetic field generator in it. When you put a card into the magnetic field that induces a current in the card which powers it to transmit a little packet of data. The reader recieves that data and does 'stuff' in response.
The key thing here is that it's NEAR field communication. This is intentional (you don't want the gate picking up you pass when you're still 6 people back from the gate so letting someone else through) and also minumises 'card clash' (lots of things now have NFC chips in and as it's the same basic tech in al of them all of them will 'wake up' when in the trigger field).
Now for emergency rescue I guess you don't car what responds, just that something does...but to create a bigger trigger field you need more and more power (which will soon mean rescuers with heavy battery backpacks), need to remove all false positives (so anything the rescuers have on them with NFC chips need to be shielded/left behind), and there will be a significant risks of it interfering with other electronics (transevers, pacemakers, rescuer communication radios, etc).
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When a mobile receives a text message, it pings.
Emergency services have the ability to send batch messages to all mobiles in an area (eg flood or fire warning).
There are also things like “do you want to join hotspot” and “Bluetooth discoverable”.
Some clever person might be able to join various technologies together. Of course I don’t mean sending texts every minute, but the basics of remote activating mobiles within a defined area are there. Put them in the resort app so the user can choose if they are on or off, reducing possibility of abuse elsewhere.
Whether they work under 1.5m of compacted snow is the next question.
Needs some techie minds and a big boss saying “Failure is not an option”.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Mjit, I have certainly been stuck in a queue at the turnstiles, and my pass has activated the device when I was standing at least a foot behind. A pain, because then by the time I actually reached the turnstile I was rejected on the basis I was trying to use the same card twice. Obviously 30 cm rather than 4 still won't be a big enough range, but if it was practical to create a stronger magnetic field from a portable device it would penetrate further. I assume the resort already has the technology to distinguish its own NFC cards from the credit cards etc most skiers will also be carrying.
I imagine the Recco devices use a comparable technology, though of course they may be tuned to respond to signals that have good penetration.
@Poogle, you are right, mobile phone signals might be an alternative. If I understand the technology right, every phone routinely sends "handshake" signals continually to create a link to the nearest antenna; the question is how far a signal that reaches half a mile or so in air would travel through snow. And it presumes skiers have their phone charged enough to last them through the day, which isn't always the case judging by the numbers observed scrabbling to find a power point for a charger at coffee and lunch stops.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
j b wrote:
I imagine the Recco devices use a comparable technology, though of course they may be tuned to respond to signals that have good penetration.
I think the Recco things literally just reflect back the signal from the searching device (and apparently this can bounce back off phones etc too, but I guess depends on orientation).
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
clarky999 wrote:
j b wrote:
I imagine the Recco devices use a comparable technology, though of course they may be tuned to respond to signals that have good penetration.
I think the Recco things literally just reflect back the signal from the searching device...
Yes, the Recco metal inserts in clothing etc are just passive radar reflectors (designed to be efficient reflectors for the wavelength of the radar used).
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Thanks @clarky999 and @Alastair Pink, you prompted me to find out a little about the technology via google.
It seems it is a little more than a tuned reflector, it includes a passive circuit that gives a double frequency return signal. That of course allows more sensitive detection as a positive signal that is distinguished from any random same-frequency reflections. But more importantly, with a higher power search device the signal can be detected at longer distances making it possible to scan an area from a helicopter (though I don't know how many helicopters are actually equipped with that, hand-held shorter range devices seem to be more typical).
I have learned to have more respect for those little patches on our ski clothing.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Poogle, @j b,
Quote:
@Poogle, you are right, mobile phone signals might be an alternative
I'm not an expert, but I think you'll find the attenuation (loss of signal strength) of the UHF frequencies used in mobile phones (4g ~= 1,000mHz and upwards) would make them unusable as beacons under snow.
Av. transcievers use much lower 457kHz frequencies which penetrate through snow much better
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I see the subject of Recco has been brought up again. I have never been a fan of Recco although no doubt my own skiwear contains Recco reflectors.
I recall two Snoworks instructors giving a demo of how to do a search using transceivers just before Covid.
A member of the group buried a transceiver down the mountain and the instructors went more or less directly to it. They clearly understand how the flux lines work and their final close range search took no time at all, which is often the bit that slows us amateurs. I doubt that someone using Recco would have got there any quicker.
It seems to me that some advocates of Recco appear to think that there will always be a helicopter close by. That may not be the case. What if the visibility is overcast? What if the rescue site is difficult for a helicopter such as in trees? What if the helicopter is already engaged in another rescue?
Self rescue from within the group has to be the main solution, however if a trained professional is close by, they will not need Recco.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@richjp, I don't think the two are comparable. Hardly any piste skiers will be equipped with transceivers, whereas a good number will have Recco patches as part of their skiwear. But some avalanches take out people on piste.
Recco clearly won't do the job back-country, particularly where a search is likely to be initiated by transceiver-equipped colleagues, and it would be foolhardy to assume they will allow speedy rescue.
@geoffers, I haven't gone back to find the source, but from when I looked up Recco the other day I recall them being tuned to around 0.5 GHz with the doubled (reflected) signal at close to 1 GHz. So presumably someone decided attenuation at those frequencies wasn't a big problem.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
richjp wrote:
Self rescue from within the group has to be the main solution
When avalanche happen on piste, “within the group” includes ski patrol
phil_w wrote:
We can't re-purpose back country safety advice when discussing patrolled and controlled terrain. The difference matters, and confusing the two results in bad advice.
[quote="j b"]@richjp, I don't think the two are comparable. Hardly any piste skiers will be equipped with transceivers, whereas a good number will have Recco patches as part of their skiwear. But some avalanches take out people on piste.
Recco clearly won't do the job back-country, particularly where a search is likely to be initiated by transceiver-equipped colleagues, and it would be foolhardy to assume they will allow speedy rescue.
That's a good point. I was thinking of off piste rescue when talking about Recco.
You also said that you don't think that Recco and transceivers are comparable. I totally agree however there are some that seem to think that they are comparable.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Recco and transceivers serves two different purposes. There’s no point in “comparing” them.
Is Recco better than transceiver for on piste skiers? Absolutely!
Why? Because you don’t have to remember to charge it up the night before. Heck, you don’t even have to remember to take it with you. It’s on your jacket and on your boots.
The BEST rescue gear is the one you always have with you when you need it!
Recco and transceivers serves two different purposes. There’s no point in “comparing” them.
So why are you doing exactly that?
abc wrote:
Is Recco better than transceiver for on piste skiers? Absolutely!
Why? Because you don’t have to remember to charge it up the night before.
Eh? I don't know if the latest ones are USB chargeable, but all the ones I've ever seen have taken AA or AAA batteries, and usually last a full season of everyday use (maybe less, dependent on model and how much search practice you do). When I was Ski Club leading and not instructing I'd wear it every day, for up to 50 days a season.
abc wrote:
Heck, you don’t even have to remember to take it with you. It’s on your jacket and on your boots.
The BEST rescue gear is the one you always have with you when you need it!
Well yes, a transceiver is no good if it's switched off in your apartment, or even your rucksack, but that doesn't make Recco better by any stretch of the imagination.
The only on-piste avalanches I've personally witnessed have been attended by ARVA-equipped skiers within just a couple of minutes, ARVA-equipped piste patrol/rescue within five or ten minutes, but probably a good half an hour or forty minutes before any Recco-equipped search could conceivably have been started. By which time you really are a lot likely to find a body than a living breathing soul.
So
Quote:
Is Recco better than transceiver for on piste skiers?
Absolutely NOT!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
Well yes, a transceiver is no good if it's switched off in your apartment, or even your rucksack, but that doesn't make Recco better by any stretch of the imagination.
Do you put on your transceiver every time you go skiing, even when puttering with families? If the answer to that question is no or sometimes, Recco is “better” by no stretch of imagination!
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
abc wrote:
Recco and transceivers serves two different purposes. There’s no point in “comparing” them.
So why are you doing exactly that?
Is a sledge hammer better than a fork at cracking eggs ?
After all it is free
After all it is free
@richjp, @Chaletbeauroc,
As you so clearly state, transceivers the ONLY solution for off-piste and back-country skiing; and no one should EVER consider that RECCO is a suitable replacement for transceivers.
But my comment that kinda kicked-off this discussion, was only concerning on-piste avalanches, that do seem to happen from time-to-time. 99% of people caught in such situations will not have a transceiver, and really can't be expected to. So the best solution is RECCO; and as I detailed, most piste patrols etc now have RECCO detection equipment, and as the avalanche is on-piste, they are hopefully only minutes away.
I don't think you will find anyone on Snowheads, who is advocating that off-piste folks could have RECCO rather than transceivers.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Poogle wrote:
@richjp, @Chaletbeauroc,
As you so clearly state, transceivers the ONLY solution for off-piste and back-country skiing; and no one should EVER consider that RECCO is a suitable replacement for transceivers.
But my comment that kinda kicked-off this discussion, was only concerning on-piste avalanches, that do seem to happen from time-to-time. 99% of people caught in such situations will not have a transceiver, and really can't be expected to. So the best solution is RECCO; and as I detailed, most piste patrols etc now have RECCO detection equipment, and as the avalanche is on-piste, they are hopefully only minutes away.
I don't think you will find anyone on Snowheads, who is advocating that off-piste folks could have RECCO rather than transceivers.
You want to talk about cracking eggs? But the evangelical sledge hammer gang has a much “better” solution!!! :
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
abc wrote:
Do you put on your transceiver every time you go skiing, even when puttering with families?
I certainly do for a number of reasons as well as carrying my shovel and probe.
Firstly I never know exactly how my day will plan out. I might set off with a plan to have a gentle piste day, then bump into someone I know who might have an off piste idea.
Secondly there is the possibility, albeit rare, when I might come across an avalanche situation and be able to help.
Finally I find it a good habit to have the same getting ready routine each morning, so that I do not forget my off piste equipment on days when it will be needed.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@richjp, I used to be exactly the same, got into the habit with SCGB and stuck to it whether leading or not. In Engelberg it was pretty much the norm anyway.
Then I started instructing, where you're not allowed to wear a rucksack, better to demonstrate body position and movement. And then we moved here, where hardly anyone goes properly equipped, given that much of the good off-piste is in "safe" areas anyway. I get my kit out for perhaps four or five days per season these days.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Chaletbeauroc wrote:
@richjp, I used to be exactly the same, got into the habit with SCGB and stuck to it whether leading or not. In Engelberg it was pretty much the norm anyway.
Then I started instructing, where you're not allowed to wear a rucksack, better to demonstrate body position and movement. And then we moved here, where hardly anyone goes properly equipped, given that much of the good off-piste is in "safe" areas anyway. I get my kit out for perhaps four or five days per season these days.
Surely you can wear a transceiver under your jacket without affecting the “body position and movement”?
Given your advocation of the importance of transceiver in all circumstance, I’m horrified that you ski on piste without one. Aren’t you the least bit concerned if you ever got buried by one of those non-zero occurrence of avalanche running over a piste?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@abc, I've probably said this before, but I have personally been in at least two close calls with avalanches while on piste or on ski routes which are supposed to be protected. I usually wear a transceiver for that reason. Also, like @richjp says, I never know when I might want to dive off piste for a bit of fun...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Steilhang, what about driving to the resort? The roads are supposed to be safe. But we’ve heard of avalanches running onto the roads occasionally…
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