 Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| There have been a load of Italian recommendations recently, often with mouth-watering photos, as in this thread. A lot more than there would have been, say, 12 years ago. That's a really noticeable trend on SHs - many more Italian threads. But as, historically, France has been the biggest destination for British skiers, a preponderance of French recommendations would be logical. Especially as lots of requests are for "ski in/out" and France has more, at reasonable cost, than the rest put together. |
True, I am trying to find ski in/ski out more and more. Easy to get something very close in Obergurgl, found one last year in Zell am See and have one booked for Ellmau.
But yes, Italy seems to be growing more and more in recommendations...I've heard enough hence the Selva booking (ski in/ski out again). Looks stunning indeed, and their snowmaking seems to the very best
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@pam w, Yes I agree there are quite a few more posts about Italy than there used to be. But there still seem to be a huge volume of people who have, and will always it seems, only consider France. Now there is great skiing in France for sure, and lovely villages and great food. But in general Switzerland has higher standards, the Austrians are masters of hospitality (and fast lifts) and Italy is much better value. Added to which the half-term concentration is much less in all three. I feel a bit bad for those starting out who are bombarded with France only recommendations from many, and the relatively few responses recommending another nation are somewhat drowned out. It gives the impression that anywhere other than France would be outside the norm!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@buchanan101, The ski in/ski out thing is interesting. There are all sorts of shades to it, and true ski in/out (i.e. clip in at your doorstep and only click out again when at the same doorstep) is actually quite rare. And in my experience there is a lot of bending the truth/fooling yourself when it comes to this topic with lots of so called ski in/ski out accommodation actually being a bit of a walk/long stairs in and out of boot room/not actually that convenient. How many steps necessary from your true front door to a lift/piste would make something NOT ski in/out?
There are other ways to get similar convenience without missing out on great ski areas that might not have a lot of genuine ski in/ski out accommodation. And often means other aspects are better - closer to apes/restaurants/cute villages etc. For example:
1. Champoluc - apartment about 200m from Gondola. But also has underground parking, so load up wife and kids, drop them right at the entrance to funicular with faster access to the rest of the ski area. Sometimes after myself and one or two of the kids have had an hour of first tracks while the rest have a longer breakfast. Ski in/ski out is available on the mountain but we would then miss out on the lovely village and its restaurants.
2. Sass Fee - apartment opposite the Alpin Express gondola, probably 20m walk to lift/from return piste. Convenient BUT the good apres is 800m away, so if you go straight from skiing to beer like I do you end up carrying skis quite a bit. Actually more convenient to use a good depot and have a gentle stroll in walking boots at the start and end of the day.
3. Grimentz - the old village is not ski in/ski out but is amazing. Excellent depot and apres at the foot of slopes at gondola station, so again a gentle stroll in walking boots at start and end of the day is very convenient and gets the best of both worlds.
I actually don't mind walking in ski boots/carrying skis that much (now that kids are old enough to take care of their own stuff!). But I do less of both in all the scenarios above than most of the supposed ski in/ski out accommodation I have stayed in.
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| zikomo wrote: |
@buchanan101, The ski in/ski out thing is interesting. There are all sorts of shades to it, and true ski in/out (i.e. clip in at your doorstep and only click out again when at the same doorstep) is actually quite rare. And in my experience there is a lot of bending the truth/fooling yourself when it comes to this topic with lots of so called ski in/ski out accommodation actually being a bit of a walk/long stairs in and out of boot room/not actually that convenient. How many steps necessary from your true front door to a lift/piste would make something NOT ski in/out?
There are other ways to get similar convenience without missing out on great ski areas that might not have a lot of genuine ski in/ski out accommodation. And often means other aspects are better - closer to apes/restaurants/cute villages etc. For example:
1. Champoluc - apartment about 200m from Gondola. But also has underground parking, so load up wife and kids, drop them right at the entrance to funicular with faster access to the rest of the ski area. Sometimes after myself and one or two of the kids have had an hour of first tracks while the rest have a longer breakfast. Ski in/ski out is available on the mountain but we would then miss out on the lovely village and its restaurants.
2. Sass Fee - apartment opposite the Alpin Express gondola, probably 20m walk to lift/from return piste. Convenient BUT the good apres is 800m away, so if you go straight from skiing to beer like I do you end up carrying skis quite a bit. Actually more convenient to use a good depot and have a gentle stroll in walking boots at the start and end of the day.
3. Grimentz - the old village is not ski in/ski out but is amazing. Excellent depot and apres at the foot of slopes at gondola station, so again a gentle stroll in walking boots at start and end of the day is very convenient and gets the best of both worlds.
I actually don't mind walking in ski boots/carrying skis that much (now that kids are old enough to take care of their own stuff!). But I do less of both in all the scenarios above than most of the supposed ski in/ski out accommodation I have stayed in. |
Not sure I count a set of stairs from the boot room as not being ski in ski out. The one in Zell am See meant half a dozen steps and about 10m to the slopes. Then clip on skis, 20m down the slope and off again for the gondola! Problem was the skiing "in" as was right at the bottom of a the slushy mogully Zell home run.
I actually don't mind a short walk, but to do so I wear trainers (which fit in a back pack) and carry boots and skis; walking any distance in ski boots is the thing I try to avoid most.
Will see how close to ideal ski in/ski out Tirol Lodge in Ellmau is this month; at least it's at the bottom of a NW facing home run
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd say that folk coming to SHs for the first time looking for resort recommendations generally get a really good spread of responses. I'm not too sure what your beef is. Are you thinking of a specific recent thread? Apart from the growing popularity of Italy there is also a predictable trend to DIY holidays (even if first-time DIY-ers often seem to overlook the cost of transfers  ) and people self-driving and self-catering. The choice of self-catering seems greater in France because of all those purpose-built blocks, which exist even in hundreds of lesser known resorts, such as Notre Dame de Bellecombe or Areches-Beaufort. Unlovely they are, to be sure, and some apartments are cramped, but if they're also cheap and very convenient, and that's what a lot of people want. French families have traditionally had winter holidays even if they're not well-off, staying in little apartments, catering for themselves and having grandparents to look after the kids (and often teach them to ski, too). They often have hand-me-down equipment which many British skiers would not be seen dead with. Long narrow skis, rear-entry boots, third-generation Decathlon one-piece suits. France also offers a great many luxury slopeside chalets where you can hire in your own chef (my son worked as a chef in several of those, quite unbelievable standards, even the staff accommodation knocked spots of anywhere I've ever stayed.
It's a bit patronising to suggest that people are missing out on the joys of skiing in Austria or Switzerland because they're too dim to see beyond a whole lot of biased Snowheads recommendations! With the resources now available on the internet, so different from when most of us started leafing through TO brochures and reading "Where to Ski and Snowboard" those searching for ski holidays are not held captive on SHs. I do, however, think that a judicious reading of posts here would give people a far better feel for the pros and cons of a resort, "warts and all" than many other sites. We also have people reporting from resorts never featured in TO offerings. Snowhead Denfinella, for example, has provided some extraordinary piste-by-piste reports on places most of us have never heard of.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@pam w, I have come across this from your before. You seem a lovely and helpful person in many ways, but also very judgemental and don't seem to make any attempt to consider how your words might affect others.
There was nothing pejorative in any of my posts, merely some observations. I stated that of course there is great skiing in France. And that of course resorts in nations other than France are recommended by some. I read lots of threads here carefully, and my observation is the vast majority will point to France (often exclusively so). If you disagree with that observation that's fine but I don't think it is unfounded.
I do not have any "beef". In general or against France. That is perforative term number one from you.
I was not "patronising". That is perforative number two from you.
I did not suggest others are "too dim". That is pejorative number three.
Everything else you say is true and I agree with much of it - as I normally do with your posts. I just wish you would be more considerate in your choice of language, and rather actually read what I wrote rather than inferring rather unpleasant motivations which simply do not exist.
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It’s worth reading Laurent Vanat’s annual “Report on Snow and Mountain Tourism” for an understanding of the dynamics and differences between say France and Austria. For example, two thirds of all skiers in France are French, whereas only a third of skiers in Austria are Austrian. Hence the focus in France on big, functional, unpretty, somewhat cramped, but conveniently located apartment blocks. Whereas in Austria international tourism is much more important, hence the emphasis on making everything attractive and welcoming.
The British are by far the biggest contingent of international visitors to French ski resorts, whereas in Austria they are outnumbered by several other nationalities.
I was explaining to someone only the other day that “avoiding half term crowds” in Austria is a very different thing from in France. It must be hell in France when the British and French half terms coincide, whereas in Austria the British half term can be surprisingly civilised, provided that it doesn’t clash with Bavaria, Netherlands, Salzburg, Vienna…
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| Quote: |
Hence the focus in France on big, functional, unpretty, somewhat cramped, but conveniently located apartment blocks
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The focus on SHs, and amongst British skiers more generally, is certainly on the handful of huge resorts renowned for vast choice of accommodation and skiing options. But these represent only a small minority of French resorts. The differences is illustrated by the fact that the area where I had an apartment for 15 years is a linked area a bit bigger than Kitzbuhel, almost exclusively patronised by French skiers. Hardly any British skiers have heard of it, but all French ones have.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@zikomo, this is a recent example of "recommend me a resort". https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=160748&start=40
Balanced, informative, does contain one of the classic generalisations about French accommodation (=tiny cramped apartments) but corrected by the "you get what you pay for" and "there's masses of choice" argument.
I really don't think the "vast majority" of recent recommendations are for France. Thanks to the wildly successful Snowheads bashes in the Dolomites (I've only done two....) there are now large numbers of posters who recommend Italy and provide excellent advice about it. But I WOULD contend that the vast majority of mindless critical generalisations are about France, or (worse) "the French".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Clairey1975,
Why was Sestriere not much good for the younger beginners?
We are considering it for next year with a big mixed group.
TIA
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| skiseekers wrote: |
@Clairey1975,
Why was Sestriere not much good for the younger beginners?
We are considering it for next year with a big mixed group.
TIA |
Take a look at the piste map, not a lot of blue to progress on to.
All the high points are mostly red & black down and maybe where there are blues they're not much shallower than the reds?
Not skied it personally, but driven through and they are steep faces both sides of the col.
https://www.bergfex.com/sestriere/panorama/
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@luigi,
Thanks for the response. Crystal show it as 4/5 for beginners, intermediates and advanced skiers, which is why we thought it would work. There are over 50 blues over the Milky Way too, so it seems good on paper.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| skiseekers wrote: |
@luigi,
Thanks for the response. Crystal show it as 4/5 for beginners, intermediates and advanced skiers, which is why we thought it would work. There are over 50 blues over the Milky Way too, so it seems good on paper. |
I've been a couple of times, overall the Via Lattea is an intermediates paradise, but there is not a vast network on interconnected easy blues.
Sauze is probably the least steep valley sides, but blues are pretty much limited to the blue 52 of the Clotes lift and a few runs into Sportina that are mixed in with some reds.
In Sestriere there is a bigger beginners with magic carpets and some easy blue pistes around that, off lift 22/23/ and 30 (by jumping off at the first stop). Blue 68 runs all the way down from the top of Banchetta to Borgata village level (option to pick up blue 32 so far down too),its a step up from the village level blues, it basically winds its way down the same hill that has red and black runs that come down the more direct route. The Mt Motta side or Borgata has some steep challenging reds, From Alpette, runs 1 and 3 (if accessed via the tunnel) are good "reds to advance to"
Sansicario is virtually all reds bar a beginners area at village level, but the reds there are wide and fun.
The connection from Mt Fraiteve down into Sauze is either a black run (wide, but a proper black) or a narrow blue track (27) I haven't skied it but a couple of our group did the first time we went and said it was narrow cut up and awful, with big drop offs the side, so they used the black after that.
For a big mixed group, Sestriere isn't a bad call, as its does have a big mix of runs, exposed high runs and tree lines lower stuff and at 2000m you can always ski back to village level, and it has very good cannon coverage. for the beginner end of things, as long as they are confident and not phased by doing the odd red run then they will have a great time. If they are quite nervous and won't leave the comfort of a blue, then they are going to have a much smaller choice of runs.
as with all runs and resorts, soft snow and good conditions make a run much easy than icy bits from thaw - freeze and flat light / poor visibility.
We never ventured over to Claviere and Montgenevre as were only there on 4 day trips. One of our group did on a previous week out there, but it involves a 2 stage gondola download and 3 uncovered chairs up to Colle Bercia, which is about an hour of not skiing and then its a long way back to Sestriere, and he thought the intermediate skiing was better on the S,S,S side anyway. The way to do it from Sest would be a 30 minute cab ride to Claviere early doors ahead of lift opening, then ski around Clav and MontG in the morning before making your way back over Colle Bercia, ideally getting back into Italy for your lunch as its better value & quality!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| t44tomo wrote: |
We never ventured over to Claviere and Montgenevre as were only there on 4 day trips. One of our group did on a previous week out there, but it involves a 2 stage gondola download and 3 uncovered chairs up to Colle Bercia, which is about an hour of not skiing and then its a long way back to Sestriere, and he thought the intermediate skiing was better on the S,S,S side anyway. The way to do it from Sest would be a 30 minute cab ride to Claviere early doors ahead of lift opening, then ski around Clav and MontG in the morning before making your way back over Colle Bercia, ideally getting back into Italy for your lunch as its better value & quality! |
That sounds like a good option, it would be a long schlep to ski there and back.
I've been to Montgenevre and skied Claviere too, over as far as the cross-valley link at Cesana. There were nice blues about, I was on my second week, so I do remember getting a bit stuck on tricky reds and icy morning pistes on the south facing side. Probably didn't help that the hire shop gave me some old 185s.
You're right about the eating options, the French side had a soulless overpriced cafeteria on mountain, but the Italian side had numerous huts serving good value homemade fare. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hi, I just saw this so guess you’ve booked somewhere but for beginners I think Obergurgl is unbeatable. We are going back this year for our 6th visit, and my husband and I are good skiiers but for the children (who can now ski all reds) it’s been amazing. You need to book early though, so I’m not sure if the ski school would have any space - we have struggled to book 1:1’s this year.
We will probably look further afield but given overgurgl’s height and family friendly hotels and pistes I’m not sure we will find anyone easily!
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FAQ
