 Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| But there is also massive evidence that divorce hits kids of all age quite hard, and we don't generally go round suggesting that divorcees shouldn't have had kids. |
That’s a completely different topic. Couples didn’t start out planning to divorce. Besides, who’s to say the children of divorced parents are worse off than those whose parents stayed together miserably and fighting constantly? So should we say couples who couldn’t stay civil to each other shouldn’t have children?
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| As the poet said - they fuck you up, your Mum and Dad. |
I think that’s the point. Children are just products of random decision of their parents. Children of Hilaree are no worse off than many other couples.
For parents who made decision to curtail their own career and/or activities for the perceived good of their children, you have my admiration for making such a selfless decision. But for those who choose to pursue risky career and activities to live their life to the fullest, I say bravo!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| phil_w wrote: |
| One of Joe Simpson's books describes in the introduction the moment when he decided to change his own attitude to those risks. |
…and for many of us, that occurred when we decided to have kids. |
That makes sense to me, but I have been shouted down by snowHeads before on this topic and, of course, Hilaree Nelson would have disagreed. |
Yep shades of the Alison Hargreaves and Shane McConkey stories for me (not that those 2 were the only ones to perish with kids but more stories I am very familiar with). I suspect that most of society has a "nurture" trait which kicks in and starts to put an imperative on survival and providing for kids, those with extreme versions of the achievement/adrenalin trait don't have such a moderating effect from teh survival element - maybe because its a higher peak to adjust from. Mind you it is clearly not limited to action sports, plenty of career high flyers burn out mentally and end up neglecting relationships or otherwise end up not "surviving" for the kids as do others through addiction etc. It's the addiction analogy that is most problematic. Chasing astonishing human achievements is just viewed as more noble than 2 bottles of Hennessy a day. |
That's a great point about folk neglecting family and kids for work, though it doesn't apply only to high flyers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Wonder if the kids of these extreme adventurers typically do well in life or are scarred by the experience? |
Well there's a good film about Tom Hargreaves. Perished similarly to his mum. |
Kye Peterson seems to be doing pretty well (at skiing) so far too
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| We've all put the welfare of our families at risk at times, in big ways (spending too much time at the office, sending little kids away to boarding school) or small (nagging about tidiness and leaving toilet seats up, spending too much time on social media, spending too much money on getting roots touched up). If I was to lose a loved parent, or partner, I'd prefer they'd died doing something amazing in a mountain rather than having a heart attack as a result of lolling fatly on a sofa or driving a motorbike too fast round a bend - both activities which create far more orphans and bereaved partners than extreme mountaineering. |
Good point very well said
Net loss to kids of parents pursuing careers or scrolling through social media is much higher than the handful killed pursuing big adventure goals
I do think that any parent should be slow to pursue a hobby that involves months away from their kids at a time though, and a reasonable risk of death. It's selfish for want of a better word.
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The other thing that's a problem is that in Western society we seem to pay zero attention to quality of life. There's a huge focus on career, productivity, attainment, on squeezing more years of life out of your body. But almost no focus on actual quality of life which is much more important.
Are you happy in your life? Are you getting time with the people you love and doing the things you love? If not you need to re-appraise. And that's worth taking a paycut or living somewhere else or taking at least some degree of risk, in the mountains or elsewhere, to achieve.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ... I suspect that most of society has a "nurture" trait which kicks in and starts to put an imperative on survival and providing for kids ... |
Just spotted that section.
Is there evidence that parents who do risky things, for example smoking and over-eating,
give up those things when they have kids?
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| phil_w wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ... I suspect that most of society has a "nurture" trait which kicks in and starts to put an imperative on survival and providing for kids ... |
Just spotted that section.
Is there evidence that parents who do risky things, for example smoking and over-eating,
give up those things when they have kids? |
I think the smoking thing has been studied
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8867205/
Though I guess it's hard to separate the personal risk from that of advice to not smoke during pregnancy or raise kids in a smoke free home. With the move to outside smoking and vaping one wonders whether the effects are somewhat reduced.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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That's a pretty expensive skitour right there.
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I was unaware that a guy I know really well and have done 3 trips with was in the group with them.
Kris was an early pioneer of skiing Himalayan peaks, and is also a top cameraman.
He posted this some ten hours ago on his FB page 
Damn Hil, sadness is hard to express and even with time it doesn’t seem to change, I feel like we just learn how to see it different.
I hoped it would be easier to write something down as the days passed by but here it is, nearly a week since you left us and I’m still at a loss for words.
The tributes flow, photos shared and memories continue flooding in each day as I think about the highs and lows we shared through the years in the wild journey of life.
Many others have left great messages about the way you touched each of us, your passion for the mountains, the way you inspired, the fearless leader that rose above. Each story paid in respect to you as the amazing human you were.
There is also grieving family, those that loved you from the inner circle. Two young boys that have your fire burning deep within. @jimwmorrison, your rock and another kind soul that stood by your side sharing the joy of some of your greatest accomplishments.
They wear a sadness that we can’t even begin to express and my heart truly aches for them all!
Your light will always be bright! You will always be remembered!
@hilareenelson
I know a few SH's have skied with Mathieu Maynadier, he is back out in Nepal doing an expedition, he came very close to meeting his maker a couple of years ago and has done amazingly well to get back into it.
https://www.facebook.com/Mathieumaynadier
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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"I'll go with you, then,
Since you must play this game of ghosts. At listening-posts
We'll peer across dim craters; joke with jaded men
Whose names we've long forgotten"
To One Who Was with Me in the War - Siegfried Sassoon
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No doubt she lived an amazing life, unfortunately ended too short.
I've said before that I think those that choose to have kids and continue to pursue high risk hobby's are selfish. (And I've actually only ever had to say it about men, so no double standards here!). It's not just emotional damage of losing a parent. After Dave treadways death they had to set up a gofundme to support his wife and kids. Of course I'm not saying you should (or even can) remove all risk from your life, but clearly multiple 8000m peaks is at the extreme end of risk.
I'd agree that most people doing these things do know the risk, but ime there definitely is a case of "it's not going to happen to me". It's probably almost necessary as a psychological coping mechanism. When deaths do occur we tend to rationalise/justify them "they were inexperienced", "I would have made better decisions" etc.
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You know it makes sense.
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Pretty sure this was Hilaree’s career rather than a hobby
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Arno wrote: |
| Pretty sure this was Hilaree’s career rather than a hobby |
True, but she'd already accomplished enough throughout her career she didn't need to go to manaslu. This wasn't a case of some rookie on FWT taking risks to make the big time. She could have made a comfortable living in other, much less risky ways (e.g. speaking, coaching, expedition leader etc.).
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Poster: A snowHead
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I guess parents who smoke cigarettes are significantly "selfish" too, then. I'm going to a funeral of a victim of that this week, he leaves children, died of the tobacco. And then there's the 75% of you who are overweight or obese. And of course driving cars is pretty risky. We do not know if any of the people who die in mountains have enough money to cover any "liabilities"...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
| Pretty sure this was Hilaree’s career rather than a hobby |
True, but she'd already accomplished enough throughout her career she didn't need to go to manaslu. This wasn't a case of some rookie on FWT taking risks to make the big time. She could have made a comfortable living in other, much less risky ways (e.g. speaking, coaching, expedition leader etc.). |
Expedition leader less risky? Scott Fisher and Rob Hall come to mind.
Besides, those are different career when you can’t physically do the real thing any more. Kind of like coaching for retired racers. Not by choice.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| abc wrote: |
| boarder2020 wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
| Pretty sure this was Hilaree’s career rather than a hobby |
True, but she'd already accomplished enough throughout her career she didn't need to go to manaslu. This wasn't a case of some rookie on FWT taking risks to make the big time. She could have made a comfortable living in other, much less risky ways (e.g. speaking, coaching, expedition leader etc.). |
Expedition leader less risky? Scott Fisher and Rob Hall come to mind.
Besides, those are different career when you can’t physically do the real thing any more. Kind of like coaching for retired racers. Not by choice. |
I was thinking an expedition leader role that doesn't involve going to the summit. Her experience alone would be great to have in base camp working with others and providing advice. I'm just pointing out there are other options for someone with her experience and skillset to make a decent living that are far less risky.
Some people choose to walk away before they physically can't do it anymore. Messner stopped high altitude mountaineering at a younger age than Hilaree was. I think Alex hannold has stopped free soloing. Ed visteurs retired in his 40s, although then came out of retirement to guide. I don't see that as failure, in fact with the right mindset you can turn it into something productive.
But really my issue is not with people choosing to take risks. It's taking big risks when you have kids that I think is selfish. Of course you are welcome to disagree, I can see the other side of the argument.
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I think that in the instant case the combination of moderate risk of instant death (not resident in some comparisons to obesity or smoking, for example) AND the fact that such exploits require massive amounts of time away from home, is prima facie evidence of selfishness.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think it’s selfish to choose not to have kids only because your passion or career involves a lot of risk. Commercial divers, off shore oil rig, fire fighters...
In fact, I think it’s selfish to not have kids when you could enhance the gene pool with adventure elements. Our society is getting too stale in my opinion. Feel free to disagree.
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| Quote: |
I think that in the instant case the combination of moderate risk of instant death (not resident in some comparisons to obesity or smoking, for example) AND the fact that such exploits require massive amounts of time away from home, is prima facie evidence of selfishness.
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Yep I'm not sure it's a good comparison. I suspect 99% of obese people would chose not to be. (Yes I realise it's in their control, but it's clearly something a lot of people struggle with for various reasons).
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I think it’s selfish to choose not to have kids only because your passion or career involves a lot of risk. Commercial divers, off shore oil rig, fire fighters...
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I don't really understand why you think it's selfish to not have kids in those situations. I can understand the argument they are not an excuse to not have children, but not that it's selfish per se.
The big difference is most of those people are doing those jobs to provide their family a better life. Given the choice I'm sure many would rather not, and probably acknowledge it's not ideal for family life. As I said above Hilaree was in a position where she didn't need to take those risks and could still make a comfortable living. If she'd been at the start of her career trying to break onto the scene maybe I'd understand it a little more.
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| Quote: |
Hilaree was in a position where she didn't need to take those risks and could still make a comfortable living.
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But why make a “comfortable living” when you can make a better living?
I’m sure plenty of people who did high risk professions can make a different living, albeit a less lucrative one.
As for my assertion of not having children being “selfish”. It’s precisely the mentality you exhibited, to be so adverse to risk. Though that point is moot in this case as I recall you don’t have kids. So it’s somewhat ironic for a childless person to criticizing other’s parenting.
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The decision not to have children is actually the triumph of intelect over instinct and perhaps those without children are in a better place to comment on others parenting as are looking at it from an outside and more logical position that those who have succumbed to their reproductive instincts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@abc, the irony is I don't want kids because im too selfish to give up my current lifestyle. I don't think it would be fair on a kid (or potential partner) for me to leave them to go abroad for months at a time. You are welcome to disagree, but I think it's hard to justify a situation where parents being away for months each year, or even worse dead, is better than a more stable family situation.
Some of the best teachers, pediatric nurses, and social workers don't have kids. I think they'd still be a pretty good judge of parenting skills.
@Sarge McSarge, in an already overpopulated world you can argue one of the best environmental decisions people can make is to not have children.
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How many guides a year die in the European Alps leaving behind families, it's not just confined to Himalayan Expeditions?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Should firefighters, armed forces, security forces and other dangerous professions not have children.
That said, it does amaze me the extent to which mountaineers but themselves in danger when they have children.
I guess what I am saying is I can see both sides.
It's a bit like some people going on skiing holidays and sticking their kids in a creche all day. It's not what I did/would do but last I looked we were still a free country.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Layne,
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I guess what I am saying is I can see both sides.
It's a bit like some people going on skiing holidays and sticking their kids in a creche all day. It's not what I did/would do but last I looked we were still a free country.
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Well said. I know I'm an inveterate fence-sitter and am not proud of that, but it does often amaze me how many people who frequent these pages (generally, not just this topic) are convinced that their views are the only right ones to have 
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| Layne wrote: |
Should firefighters, armed forces, security forces and other dangerous professions not have children.
That said, it does amaze me the extent to which mountaineers but themselves in danger when they have children.
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You’re basically implying fire fighters and other “dangerous professions” are useful to the society, but mountaineering is not.
So while fire fighters can and should have children and continue to work in their dangerous profession, mountaineers should quit when they become parents.
Most professional sports are nothing but entertainments. While some got paid ungodly incomes (salary or endorsements), they’re pointless in the core. God forbid if it’s dangerous. They should all give it up as soon as they have children. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| abc wrote: |
You’re basically implying fire fighters and other “dangerous professions” are useful to the society, but mountaineering is not. |
I'm not sure firefighting is that dangerous is it? If my cousin (London Fireservice) is anything to go buy it seems to involve doing a lot of DIY for people on the black while waiting for a shout. So yes, I suppose you might hit your thumb with a hammer or get a splinter in your thumb.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@abc, no, I am not implying that. Not sure why you took it that way. Maybe you are looking for an argument?
But to elaborate slightly... you can make a living from mountaineering but still limit your exposure. It just seemed to me some were doing the most extreme things imaginable. But you missed the last two lines of my post where I made it quite clear people are free to do what they want. Provided it's legal of course and I am not suggesting making it illegal.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Layne, I’m not “looking” for an argument. I’m however having trouble understanding the argument some made in this thread that mountaineers seem to be less responsible parents just because of the risk they take on as their career. Whilst there’re many other career (and non-career) choices involving risk seem to be so acceptable.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@abc, you are treating this argument as binary, whereas it is more nuanced, as Layne has just explained in relation to his own position. Frankly, contrary to your apparent hope and expectation, there is no 'correct' answer to this problem.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Hurtle, I’m not “hoping” for a binary answer either.
Note in my post
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mountaineers seem to be less responsible parents
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@abc,
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mountaineers seem to be less responsible parents
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How is that not binary? Actually, never mind, I'm not really interested in pursuing this impossible conundrum any further. I'm out.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@abc, "mountaineers seem to be less responsible parents" - nobody has said that as far as I can see. You seem to have introduced that idea.
Hurtle said further up the thread "I always have mixed feelings about parents (of children who are not yet adult) who court danger." and I said "it does amaze me the extent to which mountaineers but themselves in danger when they have children."
That doesn't equate to "mountaineers seem to be less responsible parents" which is a far broader and direct statement. It's not the same as smoking in the same room/car as a child or feeding the child a diet of chips and chocolate, which is, in my book at least, irresponsible. Attempting extreme mountaineering challenges is more esoteric behaviour - questionable but not categorically irresponsible.
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| Layne wrote: |
| @abc, "mountaineers seem to be less responsible parents" - nobody has said that as far as I can see. You seem to have introduced that idea. |
Well, that’s the impression I got from all those “mixed feelings” expressed here. Perhaps that’s not what people meant. But then, I guess I’m not understanding what those mixed feelings are about.
But whatever it’s about, it’s negative…
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@abc, well if you don't understand the "mixed feelings" people have about parents of young children venturing into an area generally termed "the death zone" and similar such activities then I really can't help you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I second that: a fantastic film. Thanks for posting @Arno.
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FAQ
