when you get to the point where he suggests you can run the length of your driveway you will understand how much effort and training it takes to change from being a heel striker to being a forefoot striker (the way you are "forced" to run in a barefoot shoe)
watch the london marathon elite race, see them all start on their forefoot.... by mile 22 every last one of them is striking the heel, why? because the body fatigues and can't keep this "perfect" position
lower drop shoes all good, but again you have to train the body and get the flexibility in the claves or it just causes injury.... and based on experience and the number of boot queries i answer on here that are related to tight calves an awful lot more training is required by a lot of people
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 24-06-24 15:17; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
OH absolutely agree. Don't go direct to zero / low drop shoes. All my gym prior for many years prior to the marathon was in zero drop shoes. That included sprinting and a massive amount of work making sure my dorsiflexion was very good. Squatting 2 x bodyweight ass to grass barefoot. Etc. Lets just say my calves were strong and flexible. Even then I had to do a tremendous amount of rolling, massage and needling on my feet and calves to get through the volume in zero drop shoes. To be clear I mean zero drop with a nice cushy foam stack underneath.
I've done track sessions in my vivo barefoots which had me come out barely able to walk due to tight calves. So be careful out there. Zero drop barefoot and zero drop with foam are completely different animals
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
It has been pointed out a few times here already, but I cannot stress the importance of a gradual transition if you are attempting a transition to minimalist shoes (or ever lower drop shoes). I made the transition over a period of 18 months and now struggle to run in regular running shoes. My feet are noticeably stronger and a number of lower leg ailments that I have suffered with over the years have dissappeared.
It won't be for everyone, sure. A lot of the injuries suffered by people wearing minimalist shoes occurred during the early days of their transition (and one can speculate that they may have tried to transition too quickly). So minimalist shoes have become synonymous with injury, but had all those people transitioned slowly over a period of months my guess is that the number of injuries would have been far fewer.
A few of the posts above also link minimalist footwear with speed. Speed is not particularly relevant for me. I am a recreational runner and the more natural feeling of wearing thin-soled shoes far outweighs any pleasure of increasing my speed (despite the fact that I am now faster than before - but that is probably down to running fitness). I suspect our ancestors running long distances were equally ambivalent about speed.
There are lots of variables at play here, and possibly not enough known, but I would hazard that far fewer people would be calling out the injury risk had they taken their time to transition.
It has been pointed out a few times here already, but I cannot stress the importance of a gradual transition if you are attempting a transition to minimalist shoes (or ever lower drop shoes). I made the transition over a period of 18 months and now struggle to run in regular running shoes. My feet are noticeably stronger and a number of lower leg ailments that I have suffered with over the years have dissappeared.
It won't be for everyone, sure. A lot of the injuries suffered by people wearing minimalist shoes occurred during the early days of their transition (and one can speculate that they may have tried to transition too quickly). So minimalist shoes have become synonymous with injury, but had all those people transitioned slowly over a period of months my guess is that the number of injuries would have been far fewer.
A few of the posts above also link minimalist footwear with speed. Speed is not particularly relevant for me. I am a recreational runner and the more natural feeling of wearing thin-soled shoes far outweighs any pleasure of increasing my speed (despite the fact that I am now faster than before - but that is probably down to running fitness). I suspect our ancestors running long distances were equally ambivalent about speed.
There are lots of variables at play here, and possibly not enough known, but I would hazard that far fewer people would be calling out the injury risk had they taken their time to transition.
transition is only one part of it, having biomechanics that allow you to transition are another, for some people it is an easy change but for a lot more it simply isn't an option, as an example take a group of 10 people who enjoy participating in sport skiers runners tennis players etc, how many of those 10 can do an ass to grass squat and heel their heels on the ground (barefoot)
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Injury because you didn't transition properly or for long enough is a convenient excuse. You see the same thing with some of the diet zealots - oh it works you just didn't do it for long enough or properly for your body to adjust.
Anything that takes 18 months to transition is just a massive waste of training time. Especially when there is no good evidence that it's actually any more beneficial than shod running. It's certainly not faster, which is the goal for most runners.
All the top marathoners doing crazy mileage and crazy speeds are wearing big stacks. The good club runners are mostly doing the same. Yet you want me to put my faith in Danny Abshire, who from what I can see has no relevant education, no published articles in peer reviewed journals, no impressive running accomplishments, and coached no athletes that have produced any impressive running performances. He does however have a shoe company, so absolutely no bias there But even his shoe company seemingly doesn't practice what it preaches. Their top race shoe has a 34mm stack with 4mm drop and a carbon plate. Hardly "minimalist"!
I think that the middle ground is where all things like this will land. Just like diet, and crossfit, and fat skis.
Certainly the endurance guys that I train with have landed in the middle ground. They include ultra guys who have done over a hundred yards in backyard ultras, MDS, UTMB etc and shorter track based guys who run low thirties 10s.
They wear barefoot minimal for everyday walking around. They do all their strength/plyo work either barefoot or minimalist. Then they train and race in medium to big stack Hoka's or On's or Altra's or whoever will give them free shoes to promote on insta.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
Injury because you didn't transition properly or for long enough is a convenient excuse. You see the same thing with some of the diet zealots - oh it works you just didn't do it for long enough or properly for your body to adjust.
I think that's a fairly clumsy comparison. Some people will benefit from reducing stack height on their shoes and walking/running with more feel. If they choose that path, they should transition slowly over time. Some will not benefit (including those aiming for max speed). That's also fine - I'm not a zealot about this at all. But there are those who rubbished minimalist running, or indeed concluded that "it wasn't for them" following an injury that may well have been due to them not transitioning properly (or perhaps for biomechanical reasons, as also pointed out above).
I have no idea who Danny Abshire is and I have zero interest in running fast - just sharing my personal experience of finding minimalist running extremely rewarding and beneficial.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@slushy, copying what elite/very high level athletes do in any sport is generally not a great idea for most normal people. They are not interested in longevity. Just winning. Even if your are elite in your chosen sport, that eliteness doesn't necessarily translate across to other sports either.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
I think that's a fairly clumsy comparison.
I remember the born to run barefoot boom. There were plenty of people I knew that did all the right things (they were working in sports science and well read on the subject, so probably did a better job than the average person) and still got injured. They may well have got injuries if they'd ran in shoes - although I suspect different types of injuries - so I'm not completely barefoot running.
Quote:
Some people will benefit from reducing stack height on their shoes and walking/running with more feel.
Who and why?
Like I said most runners goal is to get faster. I don't think minimalist shoes are the answer for that. Certainly not for racing at least where the big stack carbon plated shoes are the way to go.
If your goal is just health and not to get injured then running is never going to be the best option. The injury rate is simply too high, regardless of footwear. You should build your training around low impact endurance training (cycling, swimming, X country ski etc.). Of course I wouldn't say completely abandon running as it's much better for bone health than the non impact sports - but you probably don't need a lot, especially if you are doing some resistance training (which is pretty much mandatory if your goal is health and fitness).
Quote:
copying what elite/very high level athletes do in any sport is generally not a great idea for most normal people.
Well I did suggest decent club runners are doing the same, which I think is a more realistic goal for most people.
You are right that we shouldn't blindly copy elite athletes. I certainly wouldn't suggest a Cannova special block or trying to get near the total milage of the elites to anyone that wasn't already at that level. But that doesn't mean we can't learn from them. Some much lower level runners are having success with an adaptation of the Norwegian "double threshold" days. Arguably the non-elite runner that weights 20kg more than a pro and doesn't have elite technique will benefit from some extra cushioning even more!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
To be honest the main thing I think most people should take away from the minimalist shoe movement is wider toe boxes, rather than low stack heights. Until they start making carbon altras I shall just have to live with being 2% slower....
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
boarder2020 wrote:
...........I remember the born to run barefoot boom.....
In the 80'S !!!!!!
This is the guy I did my course with Dr. Nicholas Romanov
Though maybe on reflection he was just another dude who found a niche for idiots like me to enable him to have a nice lifestyle
And ironically a few weeks back in advance of a tough 15km 800m trail run I shelled out €55 for some Calf compression socks which many of the elite runners were wearing the day before in their events - and have to say, they worked well and I had no issues with my calves; though just couldn't walk for a few days afterwards as quads were screaming due to the steepness of the singletrack descents* and also ended up with blistered heels, and there's nothing you can do about those, my poles were brilliant though!!
*and I do a fair amount of trail running out here, but that course was bonkers!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Weathercam, I'm talking about the bare foot running boom after the book "born to run" became popular around 2009. Im not sure what you are thinking about. Maybe the Bruce Springsteen song?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@boarder2020, ahhhh so someone rehashed it all some 30yrs later in an attempt to lure another generation of suckers in
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:
I think that's a fairly clumsy comparison.
I remember the born to run barefoot boom. There were plenty of people I knew that did all the right things (they were working in sports science and well read on the subject, so probably did a better job than the average person) and still got injured. They may well have got injuries if they'd ran in shoes - although I suspect different types of injuries - so I'm not completely barefoot running.
Quote:
Some people will benefit from reducing stack height on their shoes and walking/running with more feel.
Who and why?
Like I said most runners goal is to get faster. I don't think minimalist shoes are the answer for that. Certainly not for racing at least where the big stack carbon plated shoes are the way to go.
If your goal is just health and not to get injured then running is never going to be the best option. The injury rate is simply too high, regardless of footwear. You should build your training around low impact endurance training (cycling, swimming, X country ski etc.). Of course I wouldn't say completely abandon running as it's much better for bone health than the non impact sports - but you probably don't need a lot, especially if you are doing some resistance training (which is pretty much mandatory if your goal is health and fitness).
Quote:
copying what elite/very high level athletes do in any sport is generally not a great idea for most normal people.
Well I did suggest decent club runners are doing the same, which I think is a more realistic goal for most people.
You are right that we shouldn't blindly copy elite athletes. I certainly wouldn't suggest a Cannova special block or trying to get near the total milage of the elites to anyone that wasn't already at that level. But that doesn't mean we can't learn from them. Some much lower level runners are having success with an adaptation of the Norwegian "double threshold" days. Arguably the non-elite runner that weights 20kg more than a pro and doesn't have elite technique will benefit from some extra cushioning even more!
I like running although I've never been a serious runner. Yes, it is more challenging for injuries than alternative cardio options but it also seems to me to be the most efficient way of training for long days in the hills (which is my main objective) if you live in SE England! In my early 50s I've concluded that mixing up swimming, cycling, and (mainly) off-road running is the best for me. But I've never been really fit unless I've been doing some running. IN recent years I've tended to run in various Innov8 shoes which tend to be fairly low cushioning and moderate drop but then I'm running on trails much more than tarmac. I definitely couldn't cope with zero drop or barefoot (too many issues around heel/achilles/calf) but I've found that a shoe that lets me feel the trail improves my posture and balance. I'm not pushing for speed though and would tend to do hill intervals (not sprints) to increase intensity.
Last time I was running frequently (say 3 runs a week, in lightish innov8s) we spent a week hiking in Corsica followed by a week by the beach. In that second week I ran 10k every morning with no adverse reaction - something I have never achieved in my life!
Every now and again i do run on paving and then I tend to wear whatever the fairly current version of ASICS GT2000 is which is I guess more conventionally cushioned.
Seems to me that a bit of variety and some horses for courses is appropriate for those of us who aren't competing.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
boarder2020 wrote:
Injury because you didn't transition properly or for long enough is a convenient excuse. You see the same thing with some of the diet zealots - oh it works you just didn't do it for long enough or properly for your body to adjust.
Anything that takes 18 months to transition is just a massive waste of training time. Especially when there is no good evidence that it's actually any more beneficial than shod running. It's certainly not faster, which is the goal for most runners.
All the top marathoners doing crazy mileage and crazy speeds are wearing big stacks. The good club runners are mostly doing the same. Yet you want me to put my faith in Danny Abshire, who from what I can see has no relevant education, no published articles in peer reviewed journals, no impressive running accomplishments, and coached no athletes that have produced any impressive running performances. He does however have a shoe company, so absolutely no bias there But even his shoe company seemingly doesn't practice what it preaches. Their top race shoe has a 34mm stack with 4mm drop and a carbon plate. Hardly "minimalist"!
you really didn't read my post, or if you did you chose to ignore a load of parts of it
SOME PEOPLE CAN TRANSITION PRETTY QUICKLY, OTHERS IT TAKES A LOT LONGER AND SOME PEOPLE JUST DO NOT HAVE THE BIOMECHANICS TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE
yes Danny has a shoe company, yes some of their shoes don't match the beliefs in the book.... but hey coke don't just make coke do they! however having attended one of his courses and having heard him lecture at 2 medical events several years ago, he understands fully what he is talking about
the human body is a truly amazing thing, but each one is individual
if you want to run with a scrap of tire strapped you your foot DO IT, if you want to run with nothing on your feet (mind the dog poo-poo and the needles) DO IT, if you want to run in a great big zero drop fluffy cloud of a shoe DO IT , you will find out what works for your body, no boffin in a lab with a PHd is going to be able to change what works for you
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Why are they called “5 fingered” shoes when most people have toes on their feet?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Probably because it is knuckle draggers who wear them?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
About 10 years ago I won a pair of barefoot running shoes in some social media giveaway. Knew nothing about them and had no idea one should transition gradually, so went straight out and ran a 10k in them. Felt that the next day
@CEM, there are lots of people with even more experience and much better qualifications than Danny. Yet you pick his opinion over their actual research findings. Imagine someone with huge financial conflict of interest naming themselves and expert in a field, not at all suspicious
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
boarder2020 wrote:
@CEM, there are lots of people with even more experience and much better qualifications than Danny. Yet you pick his opinion over their actual research findings. Imagine someone with huge financial conflict of interest naming themselves and expert in a field, not at all suspicious
i picked his opinion as it is respected in medical fields, he declares his interests, just like others should (some do , some don't) there are lots of people out there have all sorts of opinions on barefoot shoes and their use, being brutally honest IMO they are a great cause of injury in many people, but if you like to run in them carry on
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
But even his shoe company seemingly doesn't practice what it preaches. Their top race shoe has a 34mm stack with 4mm drop and a carbon plate. Hardly "minimalist"!
