@Ravensburger, you got any vids skiing on tougher terrain? The slope your skiing on let's faults escape punishment.
Unfortunately not, and currently I’m unable to take one as there really isn’t any really rough terrain under 2 hours drive from me, just those “dry slope”-length (200-600 metre) blues - apart from one short red piste where I can’t take my cameraman (wife with kids) as they’re terrified of taking that run and there’s no way around it (like running a parallel blue to the bottom) if one want’s to take a face-on vid.
I’ll see what I can do in the forthcoming weeks though, maybe we’ll do it from behind ( ) or I’ll ask a stranger.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Ravensburger, IMV. There are 2 things to balance here:
1. The place to work on technique, is on easier runs - as you can practice without fear of losing control - but there is a point where it's sensible to up the ante.
2. Yes, skiing on a steeper slope will certainly highlight faults more readily...and when you have got the basics nailed down, then this is exactly what you should do. If you go too steep, too early, you will undermine the confidence you have built up. The better you can ski the gentler runs, the more likely you are to bring this technique onto the steeper runs.
Remember with skiing, Confidence is a huge factor...and Technique and Practice builds confidence. Confidence takes quite a while to build up and can be lost in an instant (especially when at the start of your skiing journey).
Maybe, the point at which you go steeper, is the time to do it with an Instructor (who might do the videoing for you).
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Ravensburger, no need to seek out tougher terrain. I just wondered if you had any vids. It would have high lighted the fault a lot more.
I've posted this Video on another thread - but I'm posting it here as well, as it deals with a lot of relevant issues discussed in this thread eg. Early weight transfer/Patience at the start of the turn/Balance on outside ski/Turn shape for speed control/Amount of edge used/Inclination/Skiing slowly on shallow slopes to highlight issues
It’s been almost two years since I last updated on my progress. Had a great season 21/22 but didn’t have that much days on skis in 22/23.
However, today I had my first lesson & am expecting to be able to ski in excess of 20 days this season. Well technically it was my second lesson, but the first doesn’t count as the instructor didn’t instruct. We didn’t do any drills & I was just skiing behind him around the resort. It was money wasted that time.
This time I had a pleasure of working with a young ex-racer who also coaches kids’ race club. We worked on loading the front of the outside ski early before the fall line, not steering with the inside ski and not letting my hips&bum fall to the inside, i.e. finding that “hold” from the hips and lastly keeping my knees separated as they tend to almost rub each other.
Here’s a vid from the lesson. Now that I look at the video it’s quite clear I couldn’t incorporate everything in one go. But he was on point and I’m definitely going to return.
The beginning of the run is an easy blue but the last part (before which I heavily brush off speed) is deceptively steep, at least a solid red.
@Ravensburger, nice to see you’re still heading in the right direction. First thought is that you are snatching at the start of each turn, forcing the skis around too quickly. Therefore you’re not allowing the g-forces to build smoothly from the setup phase of the turn, as a result you are limiting your ability to tip the skis to ever greater edge angles through the load phase of the turn. This might lead to dumping your hip in to the turn as you try hard to tip the skis a bit more, as pointed out by your coach today.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Ravensburger, As usual, Rob gets to the heart of the matter.
Stork Turns make it very much more difficult to "Snatch" the top of the turn and thus ingrain good form.
Think S-Shape, not Z-Shape. More patience is required, achieved through progressively changing the edge angle continuously to the end of the turn.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Ravensburger,
Beware the one week a year skier giving "expert" advice...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Whitegoldsbrother wrote:
@Ravensburger,
Beware the one week a year skier giving "expert" advice...
I'm assuming you are referring to me - as you follow me around the forum warning people to avoid my advice.
It would be more helpful to the OP - and indeed myself - if you could point out anywhere that I have given either false or misleading information.
FWIW. While it is true that I currently ski one week per year, I used to be able to do more that.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar wrote:
@Ravensburger, nice to see you’re still heading in the right direction. First thought is that you are snatching at the start of each turn, forcing the skis around too quickly. Therefore you’re not allowing the g-forces to build smoothly from the setup phase of the turn, as a result you are limiting your ability to tip the skis to ever greater edge angles through the load phase of the turn. This might lead to dumping your hip in to the turn as you try hard to tip the skis a bit more, as pointed out by your coach today.
Thanks for the feedback! We weren’t expecting to do 100 % carved turns but a mix of slight pivot & being on the edges, but you’re right - I did pivot/slip the skis. Might tone the pivot down a bit and trust the edges.
Now that I recollect that lesson and what we worked on, I have that feeling about how hard it was to keep my knees separated. Especially the right one tends to point inward, which is weird because I’m not naturally knock kneed, my knees don’t point inwards in other activities such as when doing squats etc.. But the second I put on my boots and skis the stance looks a bit funny and limits my ability to roll my tibias inward without clearing my hips out of the way (dumping), and limits the edge angles I can create. I can both feel it and see it - just look at the stance on the first 10 seconds on the video!
Maybe it’s worth a visit to a boot fitter for a quick check? I feel that by widening my stance by a couple of inches and moving my knees a bit more on top of the skis I would have a lot more room for creating an angle “for free”.
Edit to add: I don’t have any knee pains now even after days straight of skiing, It’d be just to fix the stance.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Well, I went to a boot fitter this week and showed him this:
It was pretty apparent what contributed to that stance after we removed the liners and I stood in the shells of the boots: my left leg was pretty centred in the boot but my right tibia was almost rubbing the outside corner of the cuff. Liner removed there was about 2 cm of empty space on the inside and less than .5 on the outside.
Got some custom insoles - which feel weird now that I’m just wearing the boots around the house - and he aligned the cuff a quarter of an inch to the outside so that the boot wouldn’t throw the leg inwards and my knee would be in line with the foot. Now it’s centred.
No idea how’s this going to affect my skiing but I suspect it’s not going to be negatively.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 15-12-23 19:07; edited 1 time in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Ravensburger, I suspect you may find a surprisingly positive impact on your skiing.
Lady F had skied with a pronounced A Frame for years....then an Instructor in VDI suggested getting alignment done - which had a major impact on her skiing. For the first time she could change both edges at the same time and by the same amount. At the start, her skis "ran away" with her, as they turned more easily on their edges.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Old Fartbag, We’ll see! I sure felt that way just playing around in the boots in the living room - a lot easier to turn the edge in and maybe even out on the right leg.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
As Rob says you're snatching at the start of the turn. I'll also say you're not releasing the DH ski early enough at transition and creating pressure on the new downhill ski inside edge prior to that. As a consequence both skis have pressure on the inside edges at the same time creating the knock knee.
I was taught release pressure on downhill inside edge while creating pressure on uphill ski outside edge then you're able go new dh ski inside edge.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Had a breakthrough session today.
I replaced the pivot/rotation from the ankles in the beginning of the turn you see in the video on this page with rolling/tipping of the feet (big toe / little toe) as the initiating movement between turns. This lead to greater and earlier edge angles without need to dump my hips out of the way, and facilitated room to shorten my inside leg to right direction (knee towards armpit) increasing the angle more.
Nailed it a few times and felt the whole outside ski eat its way through snow along its edge like never before, resulting in what felt like some really powerful short to mid-radius carves where I felt I could manipulate the pressure and angle of the mid-section of the ski and its contact with snow.
Put it this way: for the first time ever I really felt like skiing from the ground up. Without the skis washing out, having a platform I could load as much as I want without fear of losing traction.
Don’t yet have the leg speed to transfer that to really fast and short linked turns almost staying on the fall line. And as the movement was new to me, I forgot/couldn’t include closing of the ankle to the tipping motion as much as I hoped, and my ankles were too passive for my liking.
Next stop: practice that tipping some more so that the move starts to come more naturally, get some more speed to it so it’s faster for short turns and include those closed ankles for better position forward & better transition from ski to ski.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Ravensburger, good work!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Ravensburger, that is very good to hear.
Do you think the breakthrough was greatly helped by the better alignment?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Old Fartbag, Might be, for before my right shin/tibia had nowhere to go: it was already “in” in the ill-fitting cuff so I couldn’t roll my right foot and thus lower leg inwards no more when turning left. I sort of had to move everything above my knee left first, so that my knee and lower leg would have room to follow and go left and down as well.
That doesn’t explain however why I didn’t do ”the roll” with my left foot when turning right, as we didn’t touch alignment in my left boot. Maybe it was part psychological.
However today was a good day. I don’t have Carv but if I had to guess, if I was able to generate some 20 degrees of edge angle before (mostly coming from moving the hips and torso, which in turn lead to a kinetic chain and moved everything down the chain there as well), it felt like I was hitting closer to 45 today (moving my feet, ankles, shins, knees and hips in that order). OFC what one feels isn’t real so don’t take that 45 as gospel, but believe me I’ve never felt the skis’ cut out part in the middle hit the piste like I did today. Not in every turn but enough to know that I’m on the right path.
That doesn’t explain however why I didn’t do ”the roll” with my left foot when turning right, as we didn’t touch alignment in my left boot. Maybe it was part psychological.
Most people struggle with developing that movement pattern, finding it very difficult to make a progressive tipping action with very little twisting, rotating of their skis. You are by no means alone in this, regardless of alignment matters.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Turning for your help again!
I started race training in our local Masters-group last week. As I wrote to a thread on the gear forum it’s been great fun, but the gates really seem to reveal one’s shortcomings! Which was my point exactly to join. Now I have a myriad of areas for improvement, but as of now I’ve self-assessed my transitions (slow, out of balance) as my biggest hurdle for more effective skiing.
Our coach seems to favour s.c. “Cross under”/Flex transitions. Here’s a clip from one of his videos where he talks about precisely this matter:
I understand the principle but do not seem to be able to execute. I started doing the retraction/flex transition now, but struggle to get forward quick enough to be able to fully pressurise the forward section of the new outside ski. Maybe it’s better to show it in a few pictures:
Transition 1:
Pressure should be on the outside:
Apex:
Next turn transition:
Outside pressure(?):
Apex:
So, what could be the movement pattern required to move instantly from the toilet seat position to extended outside leg position so that I could pressurise the forward third of the outside ski’s inside edge? Would it be so simple as to retract the legs even more aggressively back and to the side? Or would you advocate “attacking” from the upper body forward and inside? Or something entirely else?
As you clearly see, another problem I have is that the tips of the skis seem to diverge a bit (starting early in both turns and clearly visible in both apex-pictures). Could this be a symptom of excessive inside ski pressure, or linked to being too far back - or could it be something I do subconsciously, i.e. actively try to steer the inside ski to make sure I “make the turn”? I have no idea and don’t feel it when skiing but it clearly shows in the pictures.
Here’s the whole run. All pictures and the video courtesy of Tom/TDK Ski Racing.
too much weight on inside ski. look at photo 3 from top and last one. You've called them Apex. All the snow spray is coming from the inside ski. No pressure on the outside ski and it's wandering off on a different path
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Baron von chippy, Could well be it! Then I suppose something strange is happening between the transition and the apex. Isolating the second turn, it seems to me the inside ski is in the air both in the transition and picture number 5, but as you rightly note then bears weight about half a second later in the last picture.
But to make things even more complicated, then when I look at the video in .25x speed it seems that the turn shape follows the outside ski, so it’s the inside wandering, which makes me even more puzzled… In any case, the inside ski definitely slows me down as it brushes the snow and it’s definitely doing something it shouldn’t.
Next time I’ll try and lift it even higher?
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Ravensburger, I find my technique fall to pieces in the gates. I guess that's why racers/coaches spend a lot of time freeskiing to really nail the technique. Then it's about trying your best to not be late so that you can keep the technique and not worry about the gates coming at you.
You only need to watch a world Cup slalom race to see even their technique go out the window at times for recoveries.
I really like Tom's YouTube channel, I've watched a lot of his stuff. I guess just follow his advice and realise learning new movement patterns isn't an easy thing and you won't just get it straight away, it'll take a lot of practise!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Just had a quick look at the video and I think that’s pretty solid skiing, reflecting the journey you’ve been on over the last couple of years. The cross-under / cross-through transitions worked well in that relatively tight GS set of gates.
One general bit of advice: don’t make too much of flaws that you think you can see in single frames taken from a video. It’s easy to over-analyse a static image in what is a dynamic sport, not least because two frames later the picture might be quite different.
Having had a quick look at the video one impression I got was that your fore/aft balance could be stronger. Your spine is quite upright, so you are a bit back on your heels as you move through the turn apex. Being back and moving too far to the inside in this phase of the turn, which typically go hand in hand, will result in a bit of that ski divergence that you see briefly. Outside of gates, when things are less frantic, perhaps spend some time in long turns thinking about driving forward along the length of the outside ski at the same time as you build edge angle, as the g-forces build around the turn. This is a dynamic process as a perfect fore/aft position you might have at the beginning of the turn might not be the same perfect balance point later on in the turn when the forces acting on you are very different.
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Quote:
Our coach seems to favour s.c. “Cross under”/Flex transitions. Here’s a clip from one of his videos where he talks about precisely this matter:
If you're being coached by Tom / TDK / Tiggerboy62 then I suspect you don't need us anymore as I'm sure he's more than capable of setting you on the right path.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@swskier, Thanks for the confidence-boost!
@rob@rar, I agree, my upper body is stiff, upright and I'm a bit on the heels, I think I need to first get in to grips with a good posture and fore/aft balance and then practice doing those small adjustments it takes to dynamically regain that right balance point and forward lean for each turn transition/entry.
@olderscot, Yes, but the thing is that there are about 20 other guys and girls in the group as well (about 10-15 there per training session) and I don't want to be that guy that asks for the coach's attention in every outing. But I guess this goes hand in hand with @swskier's advice on just being patient. And/or maybe I'll just ask if he's available for 1 to 1s.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Yes, I think take your time and keep practicing and I'm sure he'll let you know when he thinks there's something new you should be focusing on.
You've made great progress in a relative short time so whatever you're doing just keep doing it!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Ravensburger, a 1 to 1 will never hurt. I'd love to ski SL like his son does, that I'm pretty sure he's taught him everything he knows! Who also coincidentally shares the same first name as I do.
But as you've picked up, it takes time. The improvements might be small increments, sometimes they'll be massive, just keep working towards those little gains, and it'll all add up!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@swskier, Well that's one more reason for you to come to Levi Masters next year, I'm pretty sure they'll be there and happy to exchange a few words
Speaking of Masters competitions, the other day I took a look on past events just to get a feel for how's the competition in these events, if I could just sign up and join some event next season as a "tourist" and would I be totally out of place. Looks like there's one or two dominating guys in every age group in each race but the majority of the pack is quite a bit behind & varied after that - even though even they are all expert skiers. Like in this competition:
How cool would it be to join and earn a few FIS Cup points just by signing up and making it down both runs?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Ravensburger, As I understand it, the big advantage of remaining flexed through transition, is to keep ski/snow contact and get your weight transferred to what will be the new D/Hill ski as early as possible.
This video might help, as it shows weight transfer while remaining flexed:
My view - you are doing exceptionally well, and as others have said - it just takes time. You are in the right place for getting decent instruction.
FWIW. I was messing about with this recently ie. remaining Flexed through Transition/Inclination/Angulation/Weight moving from front to back through the turn. When it went right, skiing was fast, controlled and thrilling; when I got it wrong, my weight was pushed back and I found myself fighting the skis and the mountain....so my success "came and went". It would take hours and hours of Instruction and practice to get anyway consistent, especially around gates.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Ravensburger wrote:
@swskier, Well that's one more reason for you to come to Levi Masters next year, I'm pretty sure they'll be there and happy to exchange a few words
Speaking of Masters competitions, the other day I took a look on past events just to get a feel for how's the competition in these events, if I could just sign up and join some event next season as a "tourist" and would I be totally out of place. Looks like there's one or two dominating guys in every age group in each race but the majority of the pack is quite a bit behind & varied after that - even though even they are all expert skiers. Like in this competition:
How cool would it be to join and earn a few FIS Cup points just by signing up and making it down both runs?
I'm guessing you've seen the videos from Tom of this years comp in Levi? Agreed there's some reasonable skiers in there and then a bunch of turning up for some fun.
The week after the Levi race we had a race in Austria just over the hill in Wildschönau. I didn't race but tried to find some videos, and it turns out famous footballer Bastian Schweinsteiger's dad was competing!
I'm tempted to try and get my FIS license next season in time to compete in the November indoor SL races in Germany.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Another take on what to do at Transition. Sometimes a different explanation helps...and sometimes it confuses. If it doesn't help with insight, then ignore, as my intention is not to conflict with what you are being taught, but help with getting early weight transfer. Interestingly, HH talks about the tip of the unweighted ski briefly lifting....and that getting it wrong can cause the skis to diverge.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Old Fartbag, Thanks! Agree, sometimes it’s good to hear a couple of different explanations. Actually I did pick up one thing from the second video that might help me here and now and another I’d prioritise in a bit later stage.
The first thing is pulling back of the inside foot. Could be camera angles etc. but I do note that when my skis diverge, my inside foot is pretty much forward to my outside foot. I guess the V is partly a natural result of that, in addition to my balance being back. But by pulling the inside leg back I might be able to both help the my lateral balance forward (because if things below COM move back the COM moves relatively forward, right?) and be able to tip the foot further for greater edge angles - add to those a more “locked” position where the ski doesn’t want to diverge from and that’s killing three flys at once.
Another thing is the folding of the inside leg. That move doesn’t come fully naturally to me at the moment and would require considerable conscious effort. Hell, I’m used to standing on two legs after all. Sadly I’m still on the stage where I’m learning and ingraining the tipping motion, ie. moving the inside knee to the side from the ground up, then letting the outside foot and lower leg follow. Even though I agree, it is impressive to see these guys like Paul Lorenz, Marcus Gaston etc. seemingly effortlessly lift their free leg’s knee to their chest-level whereas mine almost never go higher than the other leg’s mid-thigh.
But as it stands I’m pretty confident that I can’t handle working on three things at once all going on in the same leg: tipping, pulling and flexing. So I might continue to work on the tipping now so that it becomes a habit (only been on it for a few weeks), pulling next and softening/lifting/folding on a bit later stage for those last extra 10-20 degrees of edge angle.
Add to that a small posture change as per @rob@rars suggestion (add some more hip angle to get the spine tilted forward) that I could start implementing as of now and maybe I’d be on a good track for a while.
So upper body forward, inside leg back. That’s my take on all this right now. Oh and ankles, almost forgot to close my ankles. I always do…
@Ravensburger, If any of it helps - come back and let us know.
I watched an Interview with HH, where he said that being relaxed at Transition was necessary, as it was the key to "letting the body go" into the next turn. When you are relaxed, the skis can get light and as the tension has gone from your legs, you can tip them more easily. In other words, there is no tension or pushing against the snow, but "giving in" to the forces of the turn with further flexing at transition.
If you are like me, just concentrating hard on what you are doing brings tension to the body, so it will take a while.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Old Fartbag, Agree, but I think that there’s a little bit of perspective error there: to be able to fully “let go and relax” the movement patterns have to be trained to some extent first, after which relaxing helps to round it out. I don’t know if these are good analogies but I used to swim and play golf a bit and the pattern was the same: after I had learned the technique, then the more relaxed I was the better, longer and faster I swam/hit the ball.
For the record, I just used a bit of spare time to check whether or not I got it right with the thought that pulling the inside foot back might help with tip separation:
1: If I roll the foot and tibia by activating my outside calf muscles and hip joint, it leads to this. I effectively both diverge the tips and use the tail of the ski as a brake, as seen on my pictures and video above:
2: If I add closing of the ankle by activating the little muscles in the front of the shin and pull my foot back by activating my hamstrings and glutes, the result will be this. Now the skis would be aligned and the tip isn’t higher than the tail:
@Old Fartbag, Agree, but I think that there’s a little bit of perspective error there: to be able to fully “let go and relax” the movement patterns have to be trained to some extent first, after which relaxing helps to round it out. I don’t know if these are good analogies but I used to swim and play golf a bit and the pattern was the same: after I had learned the technique, then the more relaxed I was the better, longer and faster I swam/hit the ball.
Fully agree.
If the U/Hill ski is too far forward, it's very hard to tip it onto the Little Toe edge (while keeping the ski tracking parallel - which is why in the photo above, your foot has to diverge to achieve it). As soon as you pull it back more underneath your hips, you now have the ability to tip it while allowing it to track parallel.
At the start, it is a bit "Catch 22" - You need to be relaxed to get it right, but it's hard to relax when learning to get it right.
If you find the HH insight helpful - you can find the full interview on YouTube under Big Academy: "Carve Your Turns with Harald Harb: Achieve a World-Class Balanced Float in Transition!"
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
A short update again. I see that I’m starting to use this thread as much as a video diary and a notebook for myself on what to work on etc. as actually asking for advice. But you’ve all been very helpful so by all means keep ‘em coming! I see myself becoming more and more a student of the mechanics and gladly take in & discuss everything I can’t see myself.
Think I’ve - at least temporarily - killed the problem with tips diverging. The cure was precisely as described: pulling the inside foot back and closing the ankle (dorsiflexion). Thanks @Old Fartbag for the food of thought! For anyone fighting with the same thing, give it a try.
Still have lots to do with getting lower and forward AND keeping the upper body better separated when there’s a bit of horizontal separation between the turns, i.e when we’re talking about semi-short turns. When going down a narrow corridor I’m OK with keeping the upper body facing the fall line but as soon as there’s some horizontal travel I go to some sort of GS mode and start to fully face the direction of which the skis are moving.
Another thing is that I see myself pivoting and adding a hockey stop mechanism to the turns in the steeper section: would appreciate a rounder turn form even there, but maybe this is linked to being back and upright. In that sense there’s a single good turn in this clip, a blue gate towards the end:
So that’s it for this week’s progression: 1 down (ski tips). 5 to go (forward, down, separate a bit more, lift inside knee higher, carve rounder).
After all it is free
After all it is free
Old Fartbag wrote:
If the U/Hill ski is too far forward, it's very hard to tip it onto the Little Toe edge (while keeping the ski tracking parallel - which is why in the photo above, your foot has to diverge to achieve it). As soon as you pull it back more underneath your hips, you now have the ability to tip it while allowing it to track parallel.
none of the above can be done when you're using the inside ski to prop you up. Too much weight on the inside ski kill the ability to do the above.
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