 Poster: A snowHead
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Also, @JackSkier, interesting article, but article. discussing one unreviewed preprint, not a study I think?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Many thanks for that — it seems that regulation, that you have to be within 7 months of your 2nd vaccine, is only valid from the 1st Feb 2022.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| JackSkier wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| JackSkier wrote: |
| Especially in light of the evidence that there is little to no effect on transmission twelve weeks after administration of the vaccine;. |
That’s not correct. There is an effect on transmission. It’s not as great as it was with the original variant or even with Alpha, which is very disappointing, but there is a benefit to reducing transmission through vaccination. |
This is the study on which my comment was based: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y
I quote: "Unfortunately, the vaccine’s beneficial effect on Delta transmission waned to almost negligible levels over time. In people infected 2 weeks after receiving the vaccine developed by the University of Oxford and AstraZeneca, both in the UK, the chance that an unvaccinated close contact would test positive was 57%, but 3 months later, that chance rose to 67%. The latter figure is on par with the likelihood that an unvaccinated person will spread the virus." |
These articles (there are several in nature along similar themes) talk to the situation where a vaccinated individual has become infected. Whether their statements on the subsequent risk of transmission are correct or not (and see rob@rar’s additional input on that) they ignore the basic point: the vaccine reduces the risk of infection in the first place, and so the *overall* effect is a significant reduction in transmission in the vaccinated population.
Statements such as ‘they show little or no effect on transmission’ seem to miss that point.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Poogle wrote: |
Many thanks for that — it seems that regulation, that you have to be within 7 months of your 2nd vaccine, is only valid from the 1st Feb 2022. |
That is my understanding, we will have it confirmed when the regulation is published today.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just back after being 'out of it with covid for four days - I left you guys in charger, what the **** have you let happen?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Is Stanton still an anti-vaxxer?
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@rob@rar, at one point he claimed he had an "exemption"  . I dont believe he has answered recently but given he was babbling incoherently about his pristine immune system I would assume he will be barred entry into Austria from the beginning of February.
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| munich_irish wrote: |
| @rob@rar, at one point he claimed he had an "exemption" . I dont believe he has answered recently but given he was babbling incoherently about his pristine immune system I would assume he will be barred entry into Austria from the beginning of February. |
OK. A choice to be part of the problem rather than part of the solution. Shame about that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In any case, skiing is still allowed during lockdown.....for those vaccinated.
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The lifts are not allowed to open this time tho
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You know it makes sense.
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@alasdair.graham, yes they are allowed, but at the moment I think they are all staying closed.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Chris_n wrote: |
| @alasdair.graham, yes they are allowed |
Not before Monday 13th December unless your lockdown is cut short surely?
That's certainly how it's being reported (interpreted?) over here: LINK
| Chris_n wrote: |
| @alasdair.graham, yes they are allowed, but at the moment I think they are all staying closed. |
Seen you've (just?) updated this!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Can someone summarise with facts how this lockdown will effect skiing?
1) are visitors still allowed into Austria?
2) is the ski season still going to start with this lockdown
3) will the lockdown likely be extended?
4) what does this mean for people wanting to book flights etc. Should we wait or still go ahead?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jebroni3_16, that article was published before the regulation was published. It only became rumoured that ski areas would be allowed to remain open late yesterday afternoon, they had been planning to close but someone must have been lobbying. Maybe some open later in the week, maybe they only open on weekends.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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1. assummed that you been vaccinated you can visit Austria but you will not find a hotel or an appartment to stay. Meaning one day visit from Germany e.g. is possible
2. some ski resorts will stay open. at least that they said until now
3. nobody knows. For the next 20 days the whole Austria will be in lockdown. What happens next?? i think they have no idea
4. see number 3.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Update : i think noone will stay open...Stubai said they will stay open , but after the examination of the announcement etc they said they will close till 13 Dec
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Ricklovesthepowder wrote: |
Can someone summarise with facts how this lockdown will effect skiing?
1) are visitors still allowed into Austria?
2) is the ski season still going to start with this lockdown
3) will the lockdown likely be extended?
4) what does this mean for people wanting to book flights etc. Should we wait or still go ahead? |
1) Visitors are allowed into Austria if they have their own own secondary residence, hotels are closed unless you were already here then you can stay until the end of your booking.
2) ski areas are allowed to open but none are just yet, see post above
3) it's always possible, the government say not but it will depend on case numbers.
4) only book if there is a reasonable cancellation policy. It may be clearer at the 10 day point.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| stanton wrote: |
| For example Germans and Austrians, Swiss, Dutch base decision on facts... |
What, like the fact that cases in those countries are rocketing? Hope you're stocked up on wacky baccy as it looks like you'll be stuck inside for some time 
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| stanton wrote: |
@rob@rar, @terrygasson, etc
I made my position very Clear that I will not be vaccinated
and to add
I'm not an anti vaxxer per se but these are not jabs and are not out of trials until 2023.
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That's bullshit. Just accept it, you are a part of the problem. Your hypocrisy in coming here and preaching about what people should do while you refuse to do the right thing yourself speaks of your character, in an entirely negative way.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 22-11-21 15:42; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@stanton, usual crap but unless you are prepared to go to prison for your misguided nonsense you wont be allowed into to Austria from February, looks like Germany could be following the same route.
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Almost all the people in UK Intensive Care Units are unvaccinated, according to the latest data. And almost all of them are relatively young i.e. not the 'going to die soon anyway' category. It's not as if we had a big surplus of ICU beds even before the Pandemic. Now, these people are taking up beds desperately needed for people who, unlike them, never elected to become ill. It's hypocrisy to parade your non-vaccination credentials and then expect to occupy a hospital or ICU bed when you fall ill as a result.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@stanton, You complain about the producers having no liability, but what liability would you have if you passed the virus onto one of your customers, who then died?
As you constantly come into contact with unknown members of the public, what precautions do you take?
How often have you taken a test?
No doubt, with your selfish attitude, you would continue working, even if you knew you have the virus.
Hopefully, your Government will permanently revoke all taxi licences for those who refuse the vaccine.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| stanton wrote: |
| I'm not an anti vaxxer per se but these are not jabs and are not out of trials until 2023. |
Genuine question - why 2023? Why not 2022 or 2024? Is there some scientific evidence that after a period that all the known effects will have been found?
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| munich_irish wrote: |
| @stanton, usual crap but unless you are prepared to go to prison for your misguided nonsense you wont be allowed into to Austria from February..... |
Sounds like stanton will have to change his username then, as he won't be able to get to St.Anton any time soon (or ever again if the virus continues to be endemic!)
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You know it makes sense.
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@Alastair Pink, we can but be thankful for small mercies 
Apparently (according to the Guardian)
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| Germany’s health minister, Jens Spahn, today issued a stark warning amid rapidly rising Covid cases, telling Germans that by the end of winter everyone will either have “been vaccinated, recovered or died”. |
I wonder which Stanton will be?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| LaForet wrote: |
| Almost all the people in UK Intensive Care Units are unvaccinated, according to the latest data. And almost all of them are relatively young i.e. not the 'going to die soon anyway' category. It's not as if we had a big surplus of ICU beds even before the Pandemic. Now, these people are taking up beds desperately needed for people who, unlike them, never elected to become ill. It's hypocrisy to parade your non-vaccination credentials and then expect to occupy a hospital or ICU bed when you fall ill as a result. |
Where is the clapping emoji when you need it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Rob_Quads wrote: |
| stanton wrote: |
| I'm not an anti vaxxer per se but these are not jabs and are not out of trials until 2023. |
Genuine question - why 2023? Why not 2022 or 2024? Is there some scientific evidence that after a period that all the known effects will have been found? |
Probably because the Pfizer Biontec vaccine trial "officially" ends on 31st Jan 2023 in Europe but on 2nd May 2023 in the USA.
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728
The Moderna vaccine finishes on 27th. Oct in Europe. However, there are about 100 ongoing secondary trials so no doubt that he will use this as an excuse.
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?cond=&term=Moderna&cntry=&state=&city=&dist=
Off course, he knows nothing about how biology works.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| LaForet wrote: |
| Almost all the people in UK Intensive Care Units are unvaccinated, according to the latest data. And almost all of them are relatively young i.e. not the 'going to die soon anyway' category. It's not as if we had a big surplus of ICU beds even before the Pandemic. Now, these people are taking up beds desperately needed for people who, unlike them, never elected to become ill. It's hypocrisy to parade your non-vaccination credentials and then expect to occupy a hospital or ICU bed when you fall ill as a result. |
This is entirely untrue and stems from a much repeated but misunderstood report on ICU admissions for the 1st quarter of the year where due to timing virtually everyone was classified as unvaccinated. The current numbers can be found here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1034383/Vaccine-surveillance-report-week-46.pdf
Last week in the UK of the 9831 "Covid positive" people admitted to ICU 3200 were unvaccinated so 32.5% (Table 4). The vast majority of these are presenting with conditions that are in no way covid related this is simply how we choose to count them.
Table 6 is also particularly noteworthy for those blindly following the narrative, you'll see that those who have been fully vaccinated are considerably more likely to catch and present with Covid-19 (and by implication spread it) but notably less likely to require emergency care or die.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@GottaCatchEmAll, As others have pointed out elsewhere on this Forum it requires skill to interpret and understand these types of figures, it's easy to misunderstand the data in statistics. May I politely suggest you're seeing what you wish to see rather than what the numbers suggest. I have no desire to argue with you, you're allowed your opinion but it might be wise to use the phrase 'i think' and 'in my opinion' so people don't think you're an expert, because i suspect you're not. I'm glad I've encountered your opinion which differs to mine, you might fancy reading this, which differs from yours;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/nov/21/icu-is-full-of-the-unvaccinated-my-patience-with-them-is-wearing-thin
It has actual first hand experience and knowledge.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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While I'm copying and pasting, here's another article which might be useful in data analysis, this time from Fact check (so lacking the left wing bias of the Guardian);
https://fullfact.org/health/health-guardian-podcast-vaccinated-deaths/
If you're busy, here's a sample;
If you compare the number of deaths in vaccinated and unvaccinated people per 100,000, the rate of death is much higher in unvaccinated people. A recent report for the Office for National Statistics found that, between 2 January and 24 September 2021, the age-adjusted risk of deaths involving Covid-19 was 32 times greater in unvaccinated people than in fully vaccinated people.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@LaForet, A linky would be REALLY welcome for that if you have one- to beat an anti vax friend with.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| GottaCatchEmAll wrote: |
| Table 6 is also particularly noteworthy for those blindly following the narrative, you'll see that those who have been fully vaccinated are considerably more likely to catch and present with Covid-19 (and by implication spread it) but notably less likely to require emergency care or die. |
It's the intensive care beds becoming filled up rather than the high infection rates that cause the lockdowns here in Austria.
Simple question : Is it true to say that people who contract COVID but don't die from it then build up a better resistance to COVID?
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Another place for very unadorned evidence is https://www.lgl.bayern.de/gesundheit/infektionsschutz/infektionskrankheiten_a_z/coronavirus/karte_coronavirus/index.htm#karte which shows various corona related numbers for Bavaria
The simple numbers provide unarguable evidence and is why, even right wing, politicians in Germany are moving in the direction of compulsory vaccination
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Hospitalisierungen und schwere Verläufe Tagesaktueller Wert
Hospitalisierte Fälle der letzten 7 Tage1) 1144
7-Tage-Hospitalisierungs-Inzidenz pro 100.000 Einwohner1) 8,7
7-Tage-Hospitalisierungs-Inzidenz pro 100.000 Einwohner - 60+jährige1) 22,7
7-Tage-Hospitalisierungs-Inzidenz pro 100.000 Einwohner - Geimpfte2) 2,9
7-Tage-Hospitalisierungs-Inzidenz pro 100.000 Einwohner - Ungeimpfte2) 14,1
Sterbefälle der letzten 7 Tage (nach Sterbedatum)1) 203
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| Quote: |
Fälle der letzten 7 Tage1) 84.321
7-Tage-Inzidenz pro 100.000 Einwohner1) 641,7
7-Tage-Inzidenz pro 100.000 Einwohner - 60+jährige1) 392,0
7-Tage-Inzidenz pro 100.000 Einwohner - Geimpfte2) 109,7
7-Tage-Inzidenz pro 100.000 Einwohner - Ungeimpfte2) 1.468,9
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Geimpfte = vaccinated, Ungemimpfte = unvaccinated
The rate for hospital admissions is nearly five times higher for the unvaccinated (very similar to the anecdotal figure of 80+% often quoted).
The rate for positive tests is over thirteen times higher.
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The chances of coming into contact with the virus is pretty much the same, regardless of vaccination status.
However, as the ratio of vaxed increases, then obviously, proportionately more vaxed people will come into contact with it. The chances of an infection must be similar between the 2 groups, thus more vaxed than unvaxed will present symptoms. The difference is the severity of the infection, which is so much greater in the unvaxed group.
I believe the figures are somewhere in the region of 88% vaccinated (UK). Thus, from the above, 12% of the population account for 33% of cases in ICU. The difference being the average ages of the 2 groups. The vast majority of the vaccinated are much older, mostly with underlying conditions that make them more susceptible. They are also much more likely to require ICU treatment for their underlying conditions, regardless of their level of Covid infection.
The numbers, and ages of those in the unvaxed group is the worry. These beds would normally be available for seasonal infections, which is mostly amongst the older population.
I read the article linked by @grumpygargoyle, I agree with the sentiments that those who chose to protect themselves should be given priority over those that did not.
Austrian doctors are already publicly saying that they are close to making such decisions regarding treatment.
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 22-11-21 16:55; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@munich_irish, while I am in total agreement that vax is the only way out our figures are skewed the opposite way to the UK. In UK people are largely only testing when symptomatic (maybe kids are testing for school I don't know). The study linked further up has a disclaimer that people who are vaccinated in UK are more likely to be aware of their health and get tested at the first sign of illness. In Austria and Germany many unvaccinated are having to get tested to go to work everyday.
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| stanton wrote: |
A society that mandates medical interventions is treading a very slippery slope...
Please respect individual Choice...
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I actually agree with the bit in bold. Mandating a vaccine is only likely to entrench antivax sentiment further, and has potential iffy future consequences if you get a nutter in government. The governments should, however, be doing everything in their power to persuade people to get the jab. Including the introduction strict vaccine passports (including recovery or negative PCR within 48 hours, paid for entirely by the person wanting the test) to be able to do anything outside of one's home.
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FAQ
