 Poster: A snowHead
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| homers double wrote: |
For me the question would be "what incentive would membership to any club give me?"
I don't need guiding around resorts, after 35 years of skiing I'm capable of reading a map.
I don't need lessons.
I don't need any assistance booking a holiday or deciding where to go.
I don't need discount codes for rental stuff etc.
All in all we (our family and friends) are more than capable of arranging all of our own holidays and associated add on pieces so I personally can't see any benefit for me, |
You are lucky, not all of us have friends of an similar standard to ski with or have the time to ski. If you want or need to go away alone and there is no single occupancy option or can't afford the single supplement then Freshtracks allows you to share with another member.
You might not need lessons but do you ever want join a Mountain Guide with a group of similar skiers? Again, doing this for one or two does make this expensive. Again, this is where the Ski Club of Great Britain can come in.
A 10% discount on expensive ski gear always helps.
A map does not tell you where the best skiing has been recently or where the quiet/busy lifts/restaurants/etc.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks to Freshtracks I had my first lessons in 40 years. The instructor was interesting and my skiing improved. He also found some excellent powder. The rest of the group were a fair cross section of society, male and female, north and south, jobs including supermarket check out and architect, nothing like the SCGB image some on Snowheads paint. I cannot find any other comparable holidays.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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After 11 years as a SCGB Leader/Rep in Muerren, plus spending most of the season there, I can take people who have been there 40+ years to new powder stashes. Just this March I skied a small semi hidden gully just full of soft powder with a Muerren resident. On the next lap the Tourist Office Director was heading for it.
I've thoroughly enjoyed Freshtracks holidays with some great mountain guides going to their hidden areas. Some holidays have been all mountain instruction for alpine skiers, but even as a telemarker there is always something to try/learn and see how I can use the idea when "lunging." The single skier aspect of Freshtracks is excellent and works very well.
And the Snowheads Bashes have been tremendously entertaining as well, and again good for the solo skier.
I think that the pandemic has shaken out the SCGB admin side into a much leaner organisation with less demand for office based work, which is good. But to some extent it is still finding its way. The leading/rep changing role hasn't helped and due to family bereavement in 2019 and Covid 2020/2021, I haven't really experienced the new system as a Rep in my usual late March slot, other than ski with other resort's Reps in a social group earlier in the season.
I actually don't think much will change in CH, in fact there could be a greater freedom to be a little more adventurous and take the proficient to some really great spots and runs.
If I can deliver a daily fun adventure to the members, then my job is done.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Jehu, I thought that Freshtracks skiing was specifically not supposed to be instructive, or was this a while back?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Freshtracks offer a range of holidays designed for different standards and some with Instructors and Mountain Guides. Sometimes, the holidays can look pricey but when you factor in the cost of the mountain guide it works out reasonable. I joined the scgb via freshtracks as I was trying to go skiing at Easter on my own and could not get accommodation for one person. Luckily a friend said have you tried the ski club of Great Britain. Been on loads on freshtracks holidays now primarily maximining bank holidays as I was working at the time and they normally had good flight times so for a weekend at easter 3 and half days skiing with no time off work.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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On the original question, of what a core offering to attract younger members could be, I'd start with accommodation, in the "club hut" vein.
Rent a cheap, large apartment with a cave (or a defunct chalet), and for £x "membership" and £x/night (e.g. at £200/person membership, £10/night accommodation & 50 members it could wash its face) members can use it whenever they want, and also the cave is available for a pair of skis and boots.
Either there would have to be a booking system and limits, or an agreement for infinite overspill onto the lounge floor. but I think it could be made to work. A bit like a super budget version of Hapimag.
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@snowdave, like the idea but it would be a brave organisation to offer this. Unfortunately, I was too old when I discovered https://www.ucpa.co.uk/ 
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I believe the truth with the ski industry is it has priced itself out of the market to attract young skiers. Consider just the cost of the lift pass, skis, boots, food and drink and it's easy to see why young people are not interested in going skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'd maybe start by looking at the rapha club model (road cycling clothing company if you didnt know). they have a number of "clubhouses" across the world where members can socialise, drink coffee, chat and then start / finish bike rides there.
work out the 5 most popular resorts for British skiers (shouldn't be hard), but an old property / chalet and create a clubhouse, free tea and coffee, "guided" ski days start and end there. maybe link it to a local ski shop so they have this seasons gear available to test. Have some backcountry safety packs to hire. big comfy sofa's and TV's showing ski racing or snowsports films. Maybe have a space to leave your gear or a room with ski tech equipment to allow DIY servicing.
beer or wine available for a small donation some basic snacks (crisps / nuts) keeps it away from too many licences.
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| 1967 wrote: |
| I believe the truth with the ski industry is it has priced itself out of the market to attract young skiers. Consider just the cost of the lift pass, skis, boots, food and drink and it's easy to see why young people are not interested in going skiing. |
That's off topic, but as a belief that one's incorrect anyway.
https://outsidebusinessjournal.com/advocacy/trade-associations/snowsports-industries-america/sia-2019-2020-participation-report/
My guess is you'll find skiing's become cheaper the further forward you go from 1905, but that doesn't really matter
as you're suggesting a drop in participation, which these numbers do not support.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I guess... well I don't really get the fundamentals of a UK based "club" for an activity which doesn't happen in the UK.
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Funny, a lot of ski clubs exist in snowless places! Florida for example.
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Someone to ski/ ride with. That works for lots of European clubs already, and at least one online-only North American website I'm part of. If that's what you want. Or you could use this site to find people. But there are lots of ways to "get connected" which even unsociable people like me find it hard to avoid. I can't really see a business model here.
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A club is for people to connect. I think the need is still there to be filled. Will that be a "business modal"? Probably not for making a profit...
The SCGB's "leader" system is just a formalized version of most other clubs where "volunteers", aka "club regulars" who are more experienced are willing to "lead", aka share with less experienced but equally capable members for the fun and comradery (and possibly some perk).
But the moment you start "paying" the leaders, it become a business. And from the look of things, that's no longer a sustainable "business modal".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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>Funny, a lot of ski clubs exist in snowless places! Florida for example.
Yup. Skied with a Floridian ski club. Their badge was a yellow neckerchief tied around the knee.
>The SCGB's "leader" system is just a formalized version of most other clubs where "volunteers", aka "club regulars" who are more experienced are willing to "lead", aka share with less experienced but equally capable members for the fun and comradery (and possibly some perk).
Certainly no perk and don't think we were "paid". Rep course is now £3k, 5 year 3/4 day Refresh £6-700+. 3 year First Aid course, annual pre season brief in London, but now moving them to other locations and more online briefing. Quite a lot of expense that isn't considered "expenses". The best resorts host Rep for accom, meals and lift pass. Even so, any seasonal "benefit in kind" is outweighed by the overall expense of becoming a Leader/Rep. So I don't think many do it for the "perk".
Just the sense of achievement from the members when they realise at the end of the day that they have been "stretched" and thoroughly enjoyed it.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| @Jehu, I thought that Freshtracks skiing was specifically not supposed to be instructive, or was this a while back? |
I have just taken a quick look at the Freshtracks programme for the forthcoming season. Out of just over 120 trips, about thirty five are instruction weeks as can be seen from the descriptions.
I have a been a member for over forty years. When I first joined the holiday programme was called Parties with a Purpose and always featured instruction holidays. I think it was sometime in the 1990s that Freshtracks was acquired. The two holiday programmes were merged and and have been marketed under the Freshtracks brand ever since. I suppose you could say that the name Freshtracks might be a bit misleading.
In my opinion Freshtracks has been the most successful part of the club in recent years, up until the bookings dropped off two seasons ago which was blamed on Brexit uncertainty and poor late season ski conditions.
They be expensive for some but there has definitely been a viable market for many. What impressed me was the fact that extra holidays were gradually added year by year, however they did not seem to go overboard for growth and spoil the quality. Before the problems I think there were about 180 trips that season. Understandably there are fewer this time although they are saying that there will be at least a few more added in due course.
As a long term member I agree that it's a mess and if anything can be salvaged, I hope the Freshtracks programme is part of it.
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You know it makes sense.
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| philwig wrote: |
| 1967 wrote: |
| I believe the truth with the ski industry is it has priced itself out of the market to attract young skiers. Consider just the cost of the lift pass, skis, boots, food and drink and it's easy to see why young people are not interested in going skiing. |
That's off topic, but as a belief that one's incorrect anyway.
https://outsidebusinessjournal.com/advocacy/trade-associations/snowsports-industries-america/sia-2019-2020-participation-report/
My guess is you'll find skiing's become cheaper the further forward you go from 1905, but that doesn't really matter
as you're suggesting a drop in participation, which these numbers do not support. |
The topic was how to attract younger skiers to join the Ski Club GB which I believe is difficult for the cost of skiing. The majority of SkiClubGB members are British and live in the UK. Therefore, you cannot compare US figures with UK figures for skiing. It is not possible for people in the UK to go skiing in one day, there and back, like you can in the US, France, Germany, Austria etc. So, I would be interested the amount of days people in the UK go skiing. The cost of skiing is too expensive for many in the UK to give it a go.
The fact the pound has got weaker over time, I think your find skiing has got more expensive for the UK.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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>They may be expensive for some...
For several years I compared the cost of the SHDS Tignes PSB in Le Taos vs SCGB Premier Party, 6 days with mountain guides, in a catered chalet. Once the holidays had been equalised, there was very little difference in ££ between them.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Didn't Caroline Stuart-Taylor set up Freshtracks, then SCGB bought it from her?? Seem to remember that, prior to that, it was just called Ski Club Holidays, or something similar...
Re the instruction query above, it's the Reps who aren't / weren't allowed to instruct. The Club / Freshtracks have always offered instruction holidays, whereby they hire a guide, or ski instructor, for the group, who is / was sometimes a British guide, working in the Alps, or, otherwise, someone from the local ski school / Club des Guides, etc...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The Club Hut idea is probably the best one. If there is any capital left installing bunkrooms in a few resorts with a decent SC kitchen could be achieved. Members book at a reasonable nightly rate say no more than 14 days of the season. Also could serve as a gathering hub for other members who want posher digs. No 1 rule of the house - Don't be a dick. No 2 - mix well with others
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I don't think it would require any material capital - just rent a couple of large apartments for £10-15k for the season, and see how it goes.
I'd suggest it for snowheads, but I think your rules would exclude too many
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
The Club Hut idea is probably the best one.
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+1.
Nearly always when people join a sports club they do it to use the club’s facilities. Facitilities that they don’t/will never own. A squash club with no squash courts wouldn’t have the biggest of memberships. Same for golf, football, rugby, bowls, etc etc.
The hut idea is probably the closest the SCGB can get to that.
In fact calling it a club is probably a bit of a misnomer.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| chrise1967 wrote: |
| Freshtracks offer a range of holidays designed for different standards and some with Instructors and Mountain Guides. Sometimes, the holidays can look pricey but when you factor in the cost of the mountain guide it works out reasonable. |
Agreed. I have been on several off-piste Freshtracks holidays in Italy and Switzerland and on several very similar DIY holidays with a group of SCGB members. A small saving was usually achieved by DIY (because we were not paying for the rep and the office overheads and sometimes found cheaper hotels) but it was not, in my view, worth (a) the extra hassle, including finding and then negotiating terms with mountain guides and (b) the risk of costs increasing if anyone drops out. It is also more relaxing to know that if anything goes wrong someone else should take responsibility for sorting out the problem.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
I believe the truth with the ski industry is it has priced itself out of the market to attract young skiers. Consider just the cost of the lift pass, skis, boots, food and drink and it's easy to see why young people are not interested in going skiing.
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Possibly, until you see how popular university ski trips are. Literally thousands of UK students head off to the alpes every year packed into coaches crowded into apartments often with people they haven't met before. Inexpensive ski holidays are possible. My last chalet trip about 5 years ago cost just over £400 per person plus lift pass.
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>just rent a couple of large apartments for £10-15k for the season, and see how it goes.
Freshtracks have done this with 2 chalets in Flaine and one in Chamonix. Been to both and excellent.
But holiday based rather than open for anyone to go to at anytime. Peak periods fine, but there would probably be gaps.
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I have never been a member of the SCGB, so I can't comment on whether it currently offers value to members. But in terms of a putative new organisation, most proposals have been about what are essentially commercial ventures – offering insurance, or holidays, or just at the most basic level suggested above taking the risk of renting accommodation in selected resorts in the hope of getting paying customers. Those seem to me to all need up-front commercial investment which creates an unrealistic risk for a new start-up club.
But some of what look from the outside as benefits of SCGB could occur within Snowheads (or added on to it at a very low subscription). The SCGB website was useful for giving resort descriptions based on actual local experience rather than tourist office/tour operator copy: for that Snowheads would need a Wiki section that pulled together information mostly already existing in historical trip reports. More difficult would be the up-to-date snow reports for which SCGB could use their reps, but the Snowhead community is big enough that in season many places might succeed in recruiting volunteer reports to complement official resort data.
Ski guiding is more difficult, partly because of legal restrictions now in some places. But even so the sort of resort Wiki suggested above could at least designate a weekly meet-up spot (e.g. 8 pm every Sunday in a particular bar) where it might be possible to link with like-minded skiers if desired, or just get someone who already knows the area to brief you on the piste map and suitable itineries.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@j b, Before Covid kicked off, SCGB was developing the resort club concept where members who were in resort for extended periods would take "ownership" of a resort and be available to provide a point of contact, info, meet up and socialise etc etc. As in VdI and Tignes. SCGB already has resort Facebook groups, initially those with a Rep, and was/is developing an app for this purpose. SCGB already maintains resort documents, principally in resorts with Reps.
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| j b wrote: |
| The SCGB website was useful for giving resort descriptions based on actual local experience rather than tourist office/tour operator copy: for that Snowheads would need a Wiki section that pulled together information mostly already existing in historical trip reports. More difficult would be the up-to-date snow reports for which SCGB could use their reps, but the Snowhead community is big enough that in season many places might succeed in recruiting volunteer reports to complement official resort data. |
Snowheads has been there and done that, although in a more ad hoc format
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/ski-countries.php
and a weekly or bi weekly snow report was issued by email at one time but there is still this: https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/snow_reports.php
there was also a weekly news letter.
Basically Snowheads has gutted the profitable parts of the old SCGB (Tour Operator business) fed by a discussion forum without taking on the costly / high maintenance stuff they used to do and be gatekeepers for. The original aim was to entirely replace the SCGB (hence the Ski Club 2.0 logo) but clearly some activities are very costly with little reward.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
The original aim was to entirely replace the SCGB (hence the Ski Club 2.0 logo)
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Strewth!
Were double agents sent in to high places to destroy the SCGB from the inside too?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@MorningGory, Careful! The Snowheads secret police will be after you!
You may find yourself ‘accidentally’ sharing a room with Lechbob next time 
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You know it makes sense.
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| davidof wrote: |
| . The original aim was to entirely replace the SCGB (hence the Ski Club 2.0 logo) but clearly some activities are very costly with little reward. |
Even if true that aim was very poorly executed - I have never been graded for my Magenta Badge, wear a Respect My Intelligence wristband which oddly contributed to surplus tat in the world or follow some guy/girl in a blue or green jacket to score off piste goodies*. As I think you allude to - the bits trying to be most like the SCGB - capturing data on people, email blasts, the non materialising insurance offer and of course the significant twattery of Filthy Phil Keith etc have probably been the least successful aspects of SHs.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The SCGB Ltd business model is fundamentally broken to the extent that no one with a CV to protect wants to be in charge when it sinks.
It's a mistake to try to do the same thing better.
| davidof wrote: |
| The original aim was to entirely replace the SCGB (hence the Ski Club 2.0 logo) |
I wasn't there, don't know. I assumed it was a joke based on "Web 2.0" and the attempts of SCGB Ltd to monetise their user base.
I don't think there was anything beyond that. Was there?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| . The original aim was to entirely replace the SCGB (hence the Ski Club 2.0 logo) but clearly some activities are very costly with little reward. |
As I think you allude to - the bits trying to be most like the SCGB - capturing data on people, email blasts, the non materialising insurance offer and of course the significant twattery of Filthy Phil Keith etc have probably been the least successful aspects of SHs. |
Yes, clearly snowheads has adopted the startup motto of "fail fast". Stuff was tried that appeared to be key to the SCGB offering and turned out that it was either a royal PITA to do or wasn't really that important after all.
The SCGB was like a duck - appearing all serene and composed on the surface but in reality there were a couple of little web feet pedaling like the clappers to keep it all running.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| .... or follow some guy/girl in a blue or green jacket..... |
Although on rare occasions a few sHs have followed a guy in a tweed jacket. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| johnE wrote: |
| Quote: |
I believe the truth with the ski industry is it has priced itself out of the market to attract young skiers. Consider just the cost of the lift pass, skis, boots, food and drink and it's easy to see why young people are not interested in going skiing.
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Possibly, until you see how popular university ski trips are. Literally thousands of UK students head off to the alpes every year packed into coaches crowded into apartments often with people they haven't met before. Inexpensive ski holidays are possible. My last chalet trip about 5 years ago cost just over £400 per person plus lift pass. |
What happens after university or you don't go to university? My Nephew, had a great time on a university ski trip however hasn't gone again. I'll ask him why.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Asked my nephew the following question
"Out of the blue question. Currently on a ski forum discussing why young people don't join the ski club of GB. Any particular reason you haven't been skiing since your university trip?"
Response
"Cost I would say! Could have a much longer sunny / beach holiday"
"As would only want to do both, not skiing instead of beach"
I remember when I was his age, I gave up my summer holidays to go skiing. I rather ski than beach. I've always said that a weeks skiing is probably the same price as a two week beach holiday.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't think Uni ski trips are a particularly good barometer for anything other than confirming that students like to party and get stupendously hungover. The real issue is the early working years of adulthood when there is an odd time and cash squeeze. Youg adults may be working crazilly long hours yet scarcely having excess funds for expensive holidays left over after rent and other indpendent lifestyle costs. I know for me a ski holiday was probably a large indulgence for a couple of years and I only really came back round after fully engaging in snowboarding.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| The real issue is the early working years of adulthood when there is an odd time and cash squeeze. Young adults may be working crazily long hours yet scarcely having excess funds for expensive holidays left over after rent and other independent lifestyle costs. |
I think this is a good point. I was 25 when I first went skiing, so missed school and uni trips as a way of getting into the sport (way too expensive for me, anyway). I tried it out because some of my climbing club mates kept going on about how good it was and suggested joining their trip, but they were 10+ years older so had a bit more spare cash. There's no way I could have afforded it before that point, and the first few trips were on a pretty tight budget.
Of those I've been on group ski trips with (from the UK), the ones who have kids have largely given up snowsports, and the ones who don't have kids go regularly. That will take a large number of 30s-40s out of the potential pool.
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@Scarlet, Thus if you really wanted to design a "club" from the ground up putting together those cheap and cheerful group trips without overhead or unnecessary frills would be a way of hooking in your loyal members. Seems to work for sHs. The £2k headline price to keep out the chavs or because no-one cares enough to negotiate keenly and if necessary switch plans to get bang for buck would be the exact wrong way to do it.
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I was attracted to the SCGB as a single skier to ski with resort Reps off-piste. The SCGB was sunk when Reps were no longer able to guide.
The Fresh-tracks holidays are still the only holidays where you know you will be skiing with people of the same standard - which is particularly important with off-piste holidays. Grading of skiers is still important in this, though I think the formal ski tests (Bronze, Silver, Gold) have almost ceased (the Gold one ended years ago because you had to have 2 Gold judges and it took about 3 days plus the race). If you want good guides you need to book them a long way ahead. My favourite guide I book privately every year is booked up by May for the next season.
Shared rooms for single skiers on holidays is important but not quite unique to SCGB. The holidays don't really need a Rep - a volunteer to do a few tasks for a discount on the holiday would do, though how do you make sure someone does volunteer on 180 holidays per year (only 120 currently and a few have still not come on-stream due to Covid related uncertainties). Another thing the SCGB holidays do is offer holidays for old skiers (I am resisting going on those till I am 80 if possible - assuming I am still alive - otherwise holidays for the un-dead might be a new growth possibility).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Scarlet, like you I didn't get into skiing until my mid thirties. Until then I would much prefer to go climbing or spend a couple weeks via ferrata in the Dolomites. Also my job didn't allow any leave between New Year and Easter. It took me a while to realise that skiing actually happened in April.
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I skied with university because I had been skiing since I was 9 and knew that I would get a decent return for the outlay. Also, I raced at uni and racing on snow, against other uni's AND having a great party was a great excuse for a couple of weeks in the mountains. Plus, it was pretty cheap and the cost of living in the mountains wasn't too awful back in the late 1990's.
I did miss a couple of seasons when I joined the real world and got a proper job because it seemed more important for some reason!?! Then I had some cash so I got back into it with a couple of trips a year. When kids came along I scaled back to a single week for a few years (3?) then I have been lucky to get at least a couple of trips a year minimum and recently 3 or 4 ('cos it's more cost effective to buy a season pass, isn't it?  ) I have always gone DIY and sought out the cheapest way of getting the maximum time on the slopes. That doesn't mean slumming it and cramming in to tiny appts. though; it just takes a bit more surfing of the web in the off season.
A couple of years ago I discovered this place and I have taken the plunge with some bashes for the coming season in addition to a few other trips (pent up demand!). I think that the bashes are great value considering the effort that has gone in to the planning and the variety on offer in terms of areas and focus. I am quite low maintenance so I am happy to fill in the gaps in terms of travel and kit faff etc.
I quite like the idea of Club Houses or dorms in key resorts. Interesting idea.
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FAQ
