 Poster: A snowHead
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| RedandWhiteFlachau wrote: |
| Bad news for British Ski Instructors? Only those who have trained with BASI. No issues if you've done the French, Swiss or Austrian training courses. Bad news for BASI though:) |
"If you are a British Citizen, regardless of what association you are a member of, you are not permitted to enter the CTT. This is because this test is a fundamental aspect of the Delegated Act, an Act regulated by the EU, and applies only to EU Citizens due to it allowing Right of Establishment across all EU states as a ski instructor."
Seems that's a British issue, not a BASI issue.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
Frankly, I doubt I'll be asked how fast I can ski a timed slalom when applying for an ambulance drivers job in Melbourne, Haggis. |
If you are under 30 then you can get young person 12 month work-visa for places like Australia / NZ / Canada.
If you are over 30, or want to go back for second season, then it becomes much more complex.
Ski school needs to sponsor your application and prove they cant find qualified locals.
In addition you will likely need a L3 / ISIA qualification and considerable work-experience.
For most UK skiers who don't live in mountains that will become real chicken & egg....
Lots of paperwork and hoops for what is ultimately a seasonal job!
Sadly : Brexit severely limits opportunity for UK instructors and young-people
Previously we had unrestricted right to work in alpine nations.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
Or Switzerland  |
I had assumed that CH would become the new natural home for BASI L3 L4 instructors |
It seems to be even more complex depending on the canton with some requiring professional qualifications issued by an EU or EFTA based organisation. |
I believe there are a total of 5000 visas per year for UK citizens ?
Previously we had reciprocal right to work.
However ski instructors will be competing with bankers, IT experts etc for a limited number of swiss visas.
Most ski schools wont bother with the paper work for a 4 month seasonal worker.
Just hire a Dutch or Swedish ski instructor who speaks perfect English.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
Frankly, I doubt I'll be asked how fast I can ski a timed slalom when applying for an ambulance drivers job in Melbourne, Haggis. |
If you are under 30 then you can get young person 12 month work-visa for places like Australia / NZ / Canada.
If you are over 30, or want to go back for second season, then it becomes much more complex.
Ski school needs to sponsor your application and prove they cant find qualified locals.
In addition you will likely need a L3 / ISIA qualification and considerable work-experience.
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Rob and I were talking about the general right to work for UK citizens, not ski instructors.
But overall I think we are pretty much in agreement. It is hard to see a pathway for working in Europe now with the barriers of
1. language
2. work permits
3. recognition of qualifications - where even places like Switzerland may be problematic given the UK is outside the EFTA
Given the extremely frosty and hostile relations with the EU and France in particular I don't see things improving soon. Especially if Barnier takes over as President in France !!!
BASI should probably do a deal with Cyprus or Malta and establish themselves there, or a deal with the Irish Association to have transferability of certification. Basically they'd become a training provider.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidof wrote: |
BASI should probably do a deal with Cyprus or Malta and establish themselves there, or a deal with the Irish Association to have transferability of certification. Basically they'd become a training provider. |
The fundamental problem for BASI is that the majority of its members don't hold EU passports.
There is not much BASI can do about that...
Looking forward aspiring UK ski instructors are going to have problems.
A permanent working visa will likely require L3 / ISIA plus work experience.
However how does someone who doesn't live in alpine nation get that experience?
Classic chicken and egg : under free movement easy options existed (... do a few seasons chalet work) : but not anymore 
BASI re-aligning the top-levels with ISIA is sensible option given circumstances - but a political u-turn.
The top-level qualifications will continue to have international recognition and status even if UK citizens can't easily use them.
Clearly BASI will need to refocus their lower level courses on UK domestic markets of snow-domes, dry slopes & Scotland.
Which might not be a bad thing...
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Clearly BASI will need to refocus their lower level courses on UK domestic markets of snow-domes, dry slopes & Scotland.
Which might not be a bad thing... |
I would say they already have so some extent, they've rebranded the UK advanced instructor (which was a step beyond level 1 but still for dry slope and indoors) as 'UK Level 2' and aspiring Alpine L2s can then complete the L2 qualification by doing the Alpine L2 resit week rather than the full L2 course. Th UK AI course rarely used to run, I know two people who have it, and they were both on the same course. I think being able to knock the teaching bit of the course off at a dome or dryslope will make a lot of practical sense for people if they actually run the courses and market them well.
| Quote: |
| BASI re-aligning the top-levels with ISIA is sensible option given circumstances - but a political u-turn. |
Agree with that, I suspect the current board don't worry much about u-turns on decisions made by the previous boards/ management. I don't think they really had an option though, in any case.
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@Tubaski, Funny enough the old regime didn't want to split the tech and teach weeks for L2. Less work for alpine based trainers... Another positive step forward imv.
As far as aligning to ISIA not much has changed. The L3 gets you the Stamp and L4 Card. Just now you only need the easier ISIA speed test as opposed to ET.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
As far as aligning to ISIA not much has changed. The L3 gets you the Stamp and L4 Card. Just now you only need the easier ISIA speed test as opposed to ET. |
Which, arguably, is what the criteria for BASI issuing an ISIA card should have been anyway..
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yet another example of GR and AL f**king the non L4 members...
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@skimottaret,
Are grandfather rights being considered for all the existing ISIA's like they did for the old grade 1's 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@stewart woodward, Good point mate, worth remembering AL etc all benefitted from that along with other L4's on the Garmish giveaway, Snowboard L4's, Staggierre rights being taken away... At least Jimmy has figured this all out for himself and is putting things right now.
Interesting to note that IASI L4's without Eurotest got grandfathered in for CTT under the Delegated Act and are eligible for carte pro's. Dont want to name names but a few well known guys benefitted from that... Unlike the 26 BASI L4's without ET that were denied Carte Pro's Simon being the most recognisable.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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BASI message for their L3 and L4 Snowboard instructors......
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| BASI message for their L3 and L4 Snowboard instructors..... |
yes, my point 3 above. there is no mechanism for forcing EFTA member states to recognized UK qualifications. So Irish L3s (snowboard or alpine) can work in France but not a BASI L4 !
Again the BASI letter is confused. A number of French snowboarder teachers did the Swiss qualifications and got their French carte pro, they were not forced to do the French system. BASI seem to confuse nationality with qualification system.
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You know it makes sense.
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| davidof wrote: |
Again the BASI letter is confused. A number of French snowboarder teachers did the Swiss qualifications and got their French carte pro, they were not forced to do the French system. BASI seem to confuse nationality with qualification system. |
Sadly BASI have got it right...
As a non EU association their qualifications can no longer be considered for equivalence to carte-pro. Had we signed EFTA deal (like Swiss) it would be different story.
Another brexit bonus!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
Again the BASI letter is confused. A number of French snowboarder teachers did the Swiss qualifications and got their French carte pro, they were not forced to do the French system. BASI seem to confuse nationality with qualification system. |
Sadly BASI have got it right...
As a non EU association their qualifications can no longer be considered for equivalence to carte-pro. Had we signed EFTA deal (like Swiss) it would be different story.
Another brexit bonus! |
That’s not really correct. You place far too much emphasis on equivalence which only part of the story. You are also incorrect about EFTA and the Swiss. While the Swiss are members of EFTA the free movement directives are EC texts with EEA relevance. They do not apply to EFTA members. The Swiss and the EU have the Agreement on the Free Movement of Persons (AFMP) which covers the right of free movement and is complemented by the mutual recognition of professional qualifications. UK nationals wanting to work in Switzerland would have been able to do so under provisions of the AFMP, many may still do so since we have the Services Mobility Agreement between CH-UK.
Davidof is quite correct and drawing your attention to a distinction about EFTA membership. He also makes a very valid point about a common confusion about nationality which often coincides with confusion around equivalence.
EFTA membership, or an equivalent, would not in any way impact free movement or the mutual recognition of professional qualifications.
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Poster: A snowHead
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^ keep it simple.
there are two issues :
1) equivalence of qualification. as a non EU association BASI qualifications will no longer be eligible for automatic recognition.
2) right to work. for UK citizens the automatic right to work in the EU is gone. there maybe individual deals, on nation by nation basis, in future. however this is TBC and will likely involve 90 day visas.
For sure : British citizens might be able to join Irish or French ski instructor association. However unless they have right to work in EU nation it would be pointless.
Switzerland is a unique situation as they are not EU members. However they are EFTA members via series of bilateral agreements that alligns them to single market. Hard brexit ruled out this compromise for UK
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ise wrote: |
| UK nationals wanting to work in Switzerland would have been able to do so under provisions of the AFMP, many may still do so since we have the Services Mobility Agreement between CH-UK. |
For Switzerland I believe it is ~5000 visas for all professionals? So your application competing with bankers or IT specialists.
How many ski schools will bother sponsoring a Swiss visa application for 4 month seasonal job? Just employee a Dutch or Swedish instructor.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Sadly BASI have got it right... |
No they haven't.
| Quote: |
| As a snowboarder in France you have to complete the Diplome d'Etat de Ski with the ENSA |
and no you don't.
You could take your snowboarder instructor exams in an EFTA member state that offered the qualification to a level sufficient for EU directive 2005/36/EC and then work in France. Indeed a number of French snowboarders have done this and have gone through the Swiss system for obvious language reasons. They had similar issues to Butler, sometimes having to use the French court system to enforce the EU directive but that is another story.
So clearly French would be snowboard instructors were not at a disadvantage or forced to use the ENSA system as BASI claim... until Brexit they could even have gone through BASI. This is the second time BASI has conflated these points in the last week hence my post. Just as they continue to maintain that the CTT is the only legal way to work in France, which Butler showed was not the case.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| davidof wrote: |
You could take your snowboarder instructor exams in an EFTA member state that offered the qualification to a level sufficient for EU directive 2005/36/EC |
right : so not a BASI qualification
| Quote: |
| and then work in France. |
... only if you can establish a permanent right to work or have an EU passport.
You confuse what a British citizen could theoretically do with options open to BASI as an association.
#brexit-dividend
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 14-05-21 21:19; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ keep it simple.
there are two issues :
1) equivalence of qualification. as a non EU association BASI qualifications will no longer be eligible for automatic recognition.
2) right to work. for UK citizens the automatic right to work in the EU is gone. there maybe individual deals, on nation by nation basis, in future. however this is TBC and will likely involve 90 day visas.
For sure : British citizens might be able to join Irish or French ski instructor association. However unless they have right to work in EU nation it would be pointless.
Switzerland is a unique situation as they are not EU members. However they are EFTA members via series of bilateral agreements that alligns them to single market. Hard brexit ruled out this compromise for UK |
No you are still incorrect. Switzerland is a member of EFTA. They are not members of the EEA and have a series of other agreement, the relevant one being the AFMP as I stated.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 14-05-21 21:20; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| UK nationals wanting to work in Switzerland would have been able to do so under provisions of the AFMP, many may still do so since we have the Services Mobility Agreement between CH-UK. |
For Switzerland I believe it is ~5000 visas for all professionals? So your application competing with bankers or IT specialists.
How many ski schools will bother sponsoring a Swiss visa application for 4 month seasonal job? Just employee a Dutch or Swedish instructor. |
Yes, I’ve seen you’ve stated that several times already. You have not understood the SMA fully.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
No you are still incorrect. Switzerland is a member of EFTA. They are not members of the EEA and have a series of other agreement, the relevant one being the AFMP as I stated. |
AFMP ended with brexit (for UK instructors)
https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-efta.html
However Swiss situation is moot point for UK who chose not to join EFTA |
I do know that, I made that point already and I don’t think you understand. I said that UK nationals had the right to work in Switzerland due to the AFMP. And I pointed out that the SMA replaces these rights for UK and Swiss nationals in the UK and CH.
Switzerland are an EFTA member. If the UK were an EFTA member it would not give you the right to work in EU. A Swiss national has the right to establish in an EU member state *not* because of EFTA membership but because of the AFMP.
But, for example, an Icelandic national might work in an EU member state because they’re members of the EEA. And they can work in Switzerland because the AFMP applies.
I think you’re confused about EFTA and the EEA.
I do have some reason to know these things 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ details on UK-Swiss SMA below... I very much doubt it will be frictionless open access for ski instructors ? Looks to me like it's aimed at professionals (IT, engineering etc). For example KPMG sending employee to work in Zurich for 3 months.
You demonstrate a good point that future relationships will be on nation by nation basis. So unique situation of Switzerland will be entierly different from France, Italy or Austria etc.
https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/media-releases.msg-id-81607.html
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
You confuse what a British citizen could theoretically do with options open to BASI as an association.
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It is you that is confused because you never take the trouble to read anything properly but just hit the old keyboard.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
You confuse what a British citizen could theoretically do with options open to BASI as an association.
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It is you that is confused because you never take the trouble to read anything properly but just hit the old keyboard. |
Keep your toys in pram.
Of course a British citizen could do French (or Slovenian qualifications). However without right to work in EU nation it's a moot point. Equivalence of qualification and right to work are two different issues
Brexit has limited opportunity massively for UK youngsters
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Not confused about anything |
You are arguing a different point to everyone else.
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| davidof wrote: |
| .... This is the second time BASI has conflated these points in the last week hence my post. Just as they continue to maintain that the CTT is the only legal way to work in France, which Butler showed was not the case. |
^ FWIW : You are correct to state that a euro test is (*seemingly*) not perhaps necessary to work in France under EU law / Butler test case.
Irrespective of that EU ruling (and how its enforced by French in future) it's now a completely moot point for BASI as an association outside of the EU.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ details on UK-Swiss SMA below... I very much doubt it will be frictionless open access for ski instructors ? Looks to me like it's aimed at professionals (IT, engineering etc). For example KPMG sending employee to work in Zurich for 3 months.
You demonstrate a good point that future relationships will be on nation by nation basis. So unique situation of Switzerland will be entierly different from France, Italy or Austria etc.
https://www.admin.ch/gov/en/start/documentation/media-releases.msg-id-81607.html |
I’m sorry but you are really quite muddled about how this worked pre-BREXIT and the nature of the relationships between the UK/CH and CH/EU. You have an unrealistic view of pre-BREXIT barriers to working in Switzerland which has led you to think it’s harder now than it really is and easier previously than it actually was. And you’re arguing the point with someone was an interlocutor for professional interests to the Swiss federation on the law that governs mountain activities and who worked with the federation sports ministry and cantonal authorities on the implementation. That’s the reason I’m the guy that’s wheeled out to brief on these issues, the briefings you can read about and the ones that you can’t 
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/appg-impact-of-brexit-mountaineering
https://baiml.org/news/post-brexit-working-in-europe/
Your basic point, which I think is that BREXIT is problematic for mountain professionals, is no doubt true.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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^ You focus on unique case of Switzerland. Topic was originally about equivalence of ski instructor qualification post-brexit (which for UK-EU is lost).
Genuine question : SMA allows, post brexit, qualified professionals to provide a service in Switzerland for 90 days? However, for specific case of ski instructor you can only work independently in CH if you have "patente" (equivalence of Swiss qualification). The links you added are for fully qualified mountain guides / IML who can work independently
So, how does SMA work for those (generally L2 or L3) who need to work within a ski school environment? Skiing is regulated profession in CH.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@ise, @davidof, That little click on the plus sign and ignore will lead to a much more fruitful discussion.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| RedandWhiteFlachau wrote: |
| @ise, @davidof, That little click on the plus sign and ignore will lead to a much more fruitful discussion. |
Care to answer the question above?
Previously Switzerland was attractive for L2/L3 BASI who couldn't work in France. Does the SMA (post brexit) agreement cover this group for seasonal employment in a ski school? I am far from certain it does.
At best UK instructors appear limited to 90 days in a 5 month season. So certainly not "buisness as usual".
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-secures-key-services-agreement-with-switzerland
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
yes, my point 3 above. there is no mechanism for forcing EFTA member states to recognized UK qualifications. So Irish L3s (snowboard or alpine) can work in France but not a BASI L4 !
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@davidof Curious as to why you think Irish L3 Snowboarders will be allowed to work in FR. As far as I know there is no separate SB qualification/pathway in France and you need to be Alpine licensed. If you could advise I would be grateful. A Brit mate who is an L4 Alpine is all up in arms as he now can't get his L4 SB quals post Brexit..
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
@davidof Curious as to why you think Irish L3 Snowboarders will be allowed to work in FR. |
I believe Davidof was arguing Simon Butler case set precedent that euro test wasn't required in France (if you make decleration under EU law). As I see it : how French interpret that longer term yet to be seen
That is different issue from BASI being unable to submit candidates for Euro Test (or L4 snowboard equivalence)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
| Or Switzerland |
I had assumed that CH would become the new natural home for BASI L3 L4 instructors but after chatting with a Swiss ski school director the door has slammed shut for working rights in CH as well. Without getting into the legalities, Brit instructors currently residing in CH are looking good but should you wish to work in CH in future you need to apply for a visa and these are VERY limited AND you need to have a uni degree. My contact, who understands the system well, was very pessimistic for the working rights of newly qualified Brits going forward.
One possibility for Brit L3's is to work towards the ISIA speed test and renamed EMS to complete the BASI L4 ISIA card. This in turn will may get you a CH Patente through equivalence.
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FWIW : sadly that was my interpretation. The post-brexit SMA between UK & CH aimed at "professionals" : which I assume means L4 plus patente? (though interested to hear otherwise).
A terrible loss of opportunity for BASI instructors who could previously work for a ski school in CH with L2/L3.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Haggis_Trap, haven't looked at it for a while but AFAIK with L4 the route to Patente is fairly straightforward and then can do a course for Brevet which is a nationwide recognised top cert and can then open a ski school. With L3 you can do a two day conversion course and obtain a Patente but only valid for the Canton you test in. The conversion course requires a certain amount of points to pass and you get bonus points for any additional L4 modules you have in your own association like ISIA speed test, Tech, teach EMS etc... It isn't easy and I know of at least one BASI L4 who flunked it. Several mates have passed it and a few took a couple goes. You need to train quite specifically for it as contains some stuff not required for BASI / IASI exams.. Im not sure an L2 can enter...
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ You focus on unique case of Switzerland. Topic was originally about equivalence of ski instructor qualification post-brexit (which for UK-EU is lost).
Genuine question : SMA allows, post brexit, qualified professionals to provide a service in Switzerland for 90 days? However, for specific case of ski instructor you can only work independently in CH if you have "patente" (equivalence of Swiss qualification). The links you added are for fully qualified mountain guides / IML who can work independently
So, how does SMA work for those (generally L2 or L3) who need to work within a ski school environment? Skiing is regulated profession in CH. |
Don't know how the Ski Instructor things works but as an IML, the new equivalance process was a pain paperwork wise - especially qualifiying origionaly on the UK system and now being on the French (who's insurance dosen't really measure up to swiss requirements). BUT once you gain it, it's good for 4 years!
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The SMA only allows for UK companies posting employees to Switzerland (with various restrictions), or UK based independent service providers working independently in Switzerland, for upto 90 days per year.
A UK independent instructor will need to have the capacity to legally work independently in Switzerland. This will mean they have had their qualifications recognised as equivalent to brevet federal by the swiss state (the highest qualification in switzerland and the only qualification allowed to teach off piste), or they have joined swiss snowsports and have at least the qualification of the old "patente".
To achieve the patente a L3 will need to pass the two day conversion course, then they MUST sit a 4 day tourism & law course in FR/DE/IT, and have completed either the EMS or the swiss snowsports Variant and tours exam. Only then will they become eligible to teach independently, and they will need to complete the brevet federal if they want to teach offpiste.
To work for a ski school brits will require a permit.
There will be 1400 L short term permits available to Brits this year. They will be governed by the requirements of the FNIA and I can unfortunately tell you that none will be made available to ski instructors, this is directly from the cantonal authorities in Valais.
Instructors who have been on L permits pre Brexit have been able to extend their permits to "recherche d'emploi" L permits for between 3-6 months, and can continue to do this if they can find work, but for longer residence permits there is a minimum required salary of approximately 40k chf. If you let your permit expire you are out.
Unfortunately switzerland is no longer a viable country for instructors who do not already have both residency and recognition, like the rest of Europe.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skifluff wrote: |
Unfortunately switzerland is no longer a viable country for instructors who do not already have both residency and recognition, like the rest of Europe. |
Thanks for confirming.
Excellent post / detail : even if it's not great news.
Instructors who are already fully qualified and hold residency will survive brexit. Those worst affected going to be:
1) youngsters starting out training to become ski instructor.
2) people who already hold L2/L3 and saw ski instructing as option for occasional peak weeks / early retirement etc
3) instructors who spend summer in UK. perhaps they have summer business or family in UK and need to pay tax here.
Thanks Boris
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@skifluff, Good intel, sobering, but good to have the facts
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FAQ
