 Poster: A snowHead
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Because their race boots are tight and uncomfortable!
And are you seriously saying that a very close fitting boot doesn't - on average - need more stretches etc than a less close fitting boot?
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Footshape and product application is key there. We've had beginners in WC boots without tears. Infact to date I don't know of any WC boots we've done that are uncomfortable for our clients.
Stretches are done based on the needs of the foot, not the ability of the skier to accept pain or ski well.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Be interesting to see you sell your "spicey" fit to the world. One thing's for sure, there will be a lot more resorts shutting down as people abandon the sport en masse as they find "racer fit" beyond their pain tolerance for a leisure activity.
Be interesting to get your take on the new Rear Entry Nordicas to follow Atomic's efforts last year 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| CH2O wrote: |
| But the tolerances are beyond that of ability or perceived level. A climber that has never skied will tolerate a whole lot more than the average person for example. I believe there's a lot more to it than the marketing of your skiing ability, and we have regular results to back that up. Breakthoughs in skiing due to precise "spicy" fitted boots are a regular thing, and becoming more so as we update and tweak our process, something that could never happen "off snow". |
Which is why I said - "What an individual will tolerate"......and why the experience and ability of the Bootfitter to assess this, is crucial ie. Not making the usual (lazy?) generic assumptions.
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We make a spicy curry, and if beyond tolerance, we change the liner, we have liners from all brands that if used correctly, can make a boot too tight for anyone, but going the other way we have liners that can make the same shell feel way too big, again, that's about living with the liners, monitoring their lifespan. A boot that takes longer to break in will yield a better long term fit, here "on snow" we can make it too spicy then add some yogurt should the expert/beginner require.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 31-01-20 12:48; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Be interesting to get your take on the new Rear Entry Nordicas to follow Atomic's efforts last year
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We carry the Atomic, and will too the Nordica intime for February. Those boots have a purpose for sure, unrelated to skier ability for us though.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Which is why I said - "What an individual will tolerate"......and why the experience and ability of the Bootfitter to assess this, is crucial ie. Not making the usual (lazy?) generic assumptions.
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That individual is likely to be an expert skier, for sure, just because of time served in boots, but not exclusively IME.
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We believe there is a huge miscommunication in the way boots should fit vs ability. But then marketing is never working to your benefit, we're still the little boy in the crowd pointing at the Emperor naked!
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We don't have a bunch of crippled beginners crying outside the shop, if that's what is coming across here.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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But we do have hundreds of beginners eating Vindaloo and seem happy after the first initial spicy mouthful. 
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When CH20 discovers the 'Enter' button on his keyboard its going to blow his mind...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sorry guys, I've got a busted hand, keyboard strokes to avoid cramp. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jedster wrote: |
But if there is no difference in fit between beginners and experts why is that most of the skiers racing in Les Contamines carry their race boots up and down in a rucksack and change out of their normal boots?
Because their race boots are tight and uncomfortable! |
My race boots are comfortable and I wear them all day, wouldn't want to carry them around in a rucksack as they are too hard to put on if not warm.
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But the tolerances are beyond that of ability or perceived level. A climber that has never skied will tolerate a whole lot more than the average person for example. I believe there's a lot more to it than the marketing of your skiing ability, and we have regular results to back that up. Breakthoughs in skiing due to precise "spicy" fitted boots are a regular thing, and becoming more so as we update and tweak our process, something that could never happen "off snow".
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Aren't we actually saying a lot of the same things?
A"spicy" fit generally "performs" better but generally requires the user to put up with a little more discomfort? It is also likely to require more tweaking (liners or whatever other approach)?
If you are happy with a less spicy fit then you are not as likely to need rework?
I'm clearly a bit of a wuss. I never enjoyed rock climbing as much when my feet were screaming at me (but then I never climbed to a high level). Equally, I find that if my feet are uncomfortable in ski boots then my posture goes wrong trying to ease the discomfort.
If I can get a pair of boots that
a) lock my heel down
b) don't have any lateral slop
c) provide enough forward support when driving big skis
d) don't make me question whether to do extra runs because I'll be REALLY glad to get them off
then I'm really happy and will ski to the best of my ability.
I now know which boots work for that but its been a bit of a journey!
Now I'm not measuring success by hundredths of a second on an icy race course which would make a difference to my priorities...
(BTW I've found aftermarket liners helpful in some bbots so your approach seems to make a lot of sense. Funnilly enough though, the boots that have worked best for me are spot on straight out of the box)
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You know it makes sense.
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@CH2O, do you colaborate with the “Annapurna”, as I really do like their chicken bhuna.
I did ask for an extra spicy jalfrezi, once. Couldn’t stop crying for days. Marvellous.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rjs wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
But if there is no difference in fit between beginners and experts why is that most of the skiers racing in Les Contamines carry their race boots up and down in a rucksack and change out of their normal boots?
Because their race boots are tight and uncomfortable! |
My race boots are comfortable and I wear them all day, wouldn't want to carry them around in a rucksack as they are too hard to put on if not warm. |
Brilliant for you - I'm sure that works for some people. Doesn't alter the fact of what I said - that isn't typical. The top of the stade in Les C is littered with boot bags on race days and you see the racers skiing down with the bags on their backs.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rjs wrote: |
| My race boots are comfortable and I wear them all day |
#1 What defines a "race boot"?
#2 Doesn't fit come into it? If I buy a pair of slippers a size down they are going to cause discomfort and I won't want to wear them for too long.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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By definition racers wear their boots for shorter periods and want to maximise their ability to interact with the skis.
Punters ski for long periods and can afford to have a tad less responsiveness between boots and skis.
Also racers ski hard on hard slopes whereas punters ski all sorts and not so full on.
The idea this doesn't matter when buying and fitting boots makes no sense to me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@jedster, I'm with you.
I started before the invention of Rear Entry boots - and the hired boots from back then left my shins bleeding and my feet cramping...so much so, that I associated skiing, with foot and shin pain....that you simply had to tolerate, if you wanted to do the sport.
The first time I skied in comfort, was when the Salomon SX80s were first introduced. It was a revelation.
When I got comfy boots that weren't Rear Entry (Integral Equipe), I kept them too long through an innate fear of pain. My current pair of Boots (Atomic Hawx), show all that fear was in my head.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 31-01-20 13:11; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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But we digress. I believe CEM does fitting for racers, punters and freeriders all alike, with great results. And is about as far away from snow as you can be. How does he do it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Layne wrote: |
| But we digress. I believe CEM does fitting for racers, punters and freeriders all alike, with great results. And is about as far away from snow as you can be. How does he do it. |
Witchcraft and mastery of the Dark Arts.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Layne wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| My race boots are comfortable and I wear them all day |
#1 What defines a "race boot"? |
I define it as boots that I wear when racing, mine are a pair of these.
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| #2 Doesn't fit come into it? If I buy a pair of slippers a size down they are going to cause discomfort and I won't want to wear them for too long. |
Buy them the correct size then. I admit that I do have easy to fit feet, they are narrow and I only need two small punches in each boot to get them to fit plus another punch around the navicular bone for alignment.
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Anyone fancy some "confirmation bias dip" with their Curry?
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I admit that I do have easy to fit feet, they are narrow and I only need two small punches in each boot to get them to fit plus another punch around the navicular bone for alignment.
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I'm no boot fitter but I guess a very small proportion of people can wear 93mm last boots all day in comfort!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm no boot fitter but I guess a very small proportion of people can wear 93mm last boots all day in comfort!!
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Plenty have feet narrow enough, search out our services and end up in WC clog. Beginner's through Ex racers. Meat in Pots dude, meat in pots.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I find that I have a tad of discomfort for the first few days at the start of the season - until my feet & calves have re-deformed to fit my (race) boots.
Thereafter they fit so well I often forget to unfasten them at lunchtimes.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rjs wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| rjs wrote: |
| My race boots are comfortable and I wear them all day |
#1 What defines a "race boot"? |
I define it as boots that I wear when racing, mine are a pair of these. |
The question was more about what characteristics do race boots have that normal don't? And are those characteristics optimised for racing or actually race boots is a misnomer and they are just boots?
When you say you wear race boots all day does that mean you use them all the time when skiing, even if just piste cruising all day?
| rjs wrote: |
| Layne wrote: |
| #2 Doesn't fit come into it? If I buy a pair of slippers a size down they are going to cause discomfort and I won't want to wear them for too long. |
Buy them the correct size then. I admit that I do have easy to fit feet, they are narrow and I only need two small punches in each boot to get them to fit plus another punch around the navicular bone for alignment. |
The point I was making is that there is the boot itself and then there is the fit. Maybe you wear your Dobermans all day but maybe you have the fit done easy. Just like a punter may get a standard pair but have the fit tight
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The point is that the fit of the boot is key, whatever the level, what problems would you expect a beginner to have in a WC boot assuming the fit is precise and comfortable?
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You know it makes sense.
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Just like a punter may get a standard pair but have the fit tight
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Indeed, indeed, however, back to the snow, optimising this for any level really requires regular showtime and feed back, it's soooooo valuable to us, I doubt we'd be getting results without it. Possibly of satisfied customers, but not optimised.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| CH2O wrote: |
| The point is that the fit of the boot is key, whatever the level, what problems would you expect a beginner to have in a WC boot assuming the fit is precise and comfortable? |
The Doberman's rjs linked to have a flex of 150. Would that pose problems for a beginner? Does a race boot need to have such a high flex?
Aside from Flex are there any other characteristics that differentiate a race boot from a normal boot? If not then what is a race boot exactly. It's the question I asked rjs that he didn't answer.
Anyhow, I don't fundamentally disagree with "the fit of the boot is key" - more that buying boots in resorts was the only way this was possible or even the best way.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Do these racers not train in their race boots?? Genuine question.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| endoman wrote: |
| Do these racers not train in their race boots?? Genuine question. |
Be crazy not to. Training should replicate the conditions of racing as much as possible.
But I presume they don't train for more than a couple of hours at a time. Not on the hill at least. I presume they do weights and other training. Maybe as their boots are so comfortable they wear them for that aswell.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Layne, Can you explain 150 flex to me?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Do these racers not train in their race boots?? Genuine question.
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Absolutely they do, and are comfortable for the most part, this worry about WC race boots is more of a worry than WC race boots are worrying.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| CH2O wrote: |
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Do these racers not train in their race boots?? Genuine question.
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Absolutely they do, and are comfortable for the most part, this worry about WC race boots is more of a worry than WC race boots are worrying. |
So why the reports of changing into race boots from normal boots and skiing with boot bags on their backs? Maybe an opportunity for a fitter in Les Contamines ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Layne, There are also 130 and 100 flex versions.
On one level they are just boots, the main difference is that the liners are thinner than most other boots so that you need to make sure that the shell shape matches your foot. The liners use cork granules in oil/wax so they don't compress much over time but do mould around your foot and the shell. I have a 5mm shell fit which is fine for the thickness of the liner.
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| endoman wrote: |
| CH2O wrote: |
| Quote: |
Do these racers not train in their race boots?? Genuine question.
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Absolutely they do, and are comfortable for the most part, this worry about WC race boots is more of a worry than WC race boots are worrying. |
So why the reports of changing into race boots from normal boots and skiing with boot bags on their backs? Maybe an opportunity for a fitter in Les Contamines ? |
Yeah - they carry the boots up for training sessions too.
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| rjs wrote: |
| @Layne, There are also 130 and 100 flex versions. |
OK, so flex is removed from the equation.
| rjs wrote: |
| On one level they are just boots, the main difference is that the liners are thinner than most other boots so that you need to make sure that the shell shape matches your foot. |
But you would have to do that with any shell. My liner is for want of a better word standard and my shell was selected as the best fit for my feet and further modified for a bone growth on the ball of my toe and my bony ankles. Whatever liner I had this would need to be done if I am to have comfortable boots. A thicker liner with no modification may hide the problem for a while until compressed but ultimately...
| rjs wrote: |
| The liners use cork granules in oil/wax so they don't compress much over time but do mould around your foot and the shell. I have a 5mm shell fit which is fine for the thickness of the liner. |
I would assume those liners would be much more expensive than standard liners in order that they can match up to a standard liner and not decompress any further? Which is fine. Your pays your money, etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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this is only my personal experience.
I bought my boots from Profeet which is highly regarded on this forum. They fitted me very well but since my feet are hyper flexible and are constantly changing shape it took 4 return visits to get my boots close to where I want them to be.
I went to hemel each time after I had the boots refitted and discovered some other bits and bobs that made my feet uncomfortable. Just as I thought I had them perfect (I had only tested my boots in hemel to this point) I went to the alps with them. Worked well for the first week but by the second week when I was going a bit faster I realised another trip to Profeet was needed. I have had a lot of work done to my boots so being able to go back to get it refitted fairly easily is definitely a plus.
Every time Profeet was exceptionally professional and tried their best to figure out how to make my boots comfortable yet, not compromising on performance. In hindsight I would've gotten a pair on the mountain which would've highlighted all the issues with the boots straight away but the downside of that is you'd lose a good few hours to have the initial fitting and the follow up adjustment.
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I think 4 return visits is probably average 
The shop may be good but the reality is that unless your feet have no bones sticking out anywhere, or you never ski at more than 10mph (it's amazing to see how many people just slide down slopes in a straight line, slowly) you are likely to need return visits. My first boots (Salomon, £250, thermal fit) needed at least 5 returns. These were mostly to adjust the shell, for sticking out ankles etc, which was actually dumb because most of that problem was fixed with Sidas insoles for €100, but the first 5 boot shops didn't think of that. My 2nd boots (Head, €450, wax injection, later replaced with Sidas thermal fit for €200) needed an ankle adjustment on the shell (each foot, different places), plus I had to replace the straps because one came off at one of the rivets; replaced it with this thing
https://www.ellis-brigham.com/sidas-booster-strap-expert-racer-710011
(ignore the "Racer" boll0x name).
And I do 0.001% of the skiing of the sky-gods here
So I suspect going back to get boots modified is actually quite common, for anyone who has "caught the bug" for skiing.
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FAQ
