 Poster: A snowHead
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It's difficult to compare the two sports, but I would disagree with Pam W. I think that competitive skiing, be it Freestyle or Alpine racing is more dangerous than rugby and that the chances of serious injury are far greater.
One study that I found for U16 rugby stated 24 injuries per 1,000 hours. 23% of these being serious, namely the participant being out of the sport for over 28 days.
Study for competitive freestyle skiing had the injury rate at 16 per 1,000 runs. Runs normally being less than 1min. 32% of these injuries being serious, although for Alpine racing I've seen this figure stated as high as 48%.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I can't see rugby existing in its current contact form in 40 years time. There will be so many kids withheld that the player pool will be significantly diminished. I'm kinda glad in hindsight that a job move and relocation in my 20s meant I never got round to finding another club though I did miss it at the time.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't think extreme skiing delivers the kind of head trauma that your football and mine (especially) do. In skiing it is more one-and-done, whereas in the footballs its getting the whacked all day for years that brings on the drooling. CTE isn't very pretty; seeing big strong sports figures reduced to a vegetable should be doing a better job of guiding folks to a different sport than it is, unfortunately.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I love watching kids develop on skis, but I still insist on keeping the risk levels low. I'm sure he will be pushed to ever greater challenges to sate the appetite of his parents youtube followers. That's where it grates with me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| doddsie wrote: |
It's difficult to compare the two sports, but I would disagree with Pam W. I think that competitive skiing, be it Freestyle or Alpine racing is more dangerous than rugby and that the chances of serious injury are far greater.
One study that I found for U16 rugby stated 24 injuries per 1,000 hours. 23% of these being serious, namely the participant being out of the sport for over 28 days.
Study for competitive freestyle skiing had the injury rate at 16 per 1,000 runs. Runs normally being less than 1min. 32% of these injuries being serious, although for Alpine racing I've seen this figure stated as high as 48%. |
This study suggests freestyle skiing is more dangerous than Alpine racing and football but alpine racing is less dangerous than football. I suspect football is safer than rugby.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/45/4/348.1
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| An unofficial straw-poll from reading the inevitable Whatsapp groups that come with kids sports clubs these days makes me think that Football (or soccer if you will) seems to result in far more injuries than Rugby - kids are forever having to drop out of training and matches because they've got a break or sprain from school/club/park football. @Alex_Sideways is 1 for 1 on the heftier football/rugby injuries sporting a shoulder disloc. from football and a concussion through rugby. |
Research suggests rugby is the more dangerous.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/2/168
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I have personal doubts about pushing/encouraging (the line is very difficult to discern) young kids into "excellence" in any sport (or most other things, come to that). None of mine had the kind of special talent or keenness which demanded hard decisions about what they, or other members of the family, had to "give up". Endless exhausting early morning swimming sessions, for example. And the damage - of all sorts - to young gymnasts of both sexes is well documented. One of my nieces was a talented young gymnast and coaches were keen - but my sister and brother in law were quite relieved when she decided off her own bat that she didn't want to do it (she's now a GP and still runs and cycles a ridiculous amount). I admire excellence in musicians, having never had any great talent myself, but once interviewed a young woman at the Civil Service Selection Board who had not only been highly talented (loads of kids are) but could at one point have realistically looked at a concern career. She had had years of real difficulty - like someone who "almost" made the Olympic team, or did so an "almost" won a medal. The way she had coped with it was admirable (and she made it through CSSB and, I hope, had a great career in the civil service) but it had been at huge personal cost which she spoke about with impressive insight and self-awareness.
As I have said before - I am a proud imperfectionist.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| I bet the injury rate for kids playing "proper" rugby is higher. |
Both rugby and this sort of skiing present the same ethical problem for parents. There is a growing body evidence that repeated low trauma non-concussive head injuries increase the risk of dementia in later life, and I don't think that parents can or should be able to ethically consent to that risk for their children. |
I guess I'll chip in from the other (non medical professional) side as a parent of a high-level competitive freeride skier. Since the resurrected thread was regarding Kai Jones, I think it is big mountain freeride skiing, not freestyle or racing that is the topic - the risks are the same but different...
Incidentally the things Kai does are different again as they are not so much competition freeride as film making - a whole other risk category trying to do something filmworthy!
The risks and energy involved with throwing spins and flips down a mountain with 30ft+ drops, rocks, trees, etc are fairly obvious; what may be not quite so obvious to those not involved is the skill level, and training (both on skis and off) that is also involved to do this at a high level. These are not kids that rocked up to the resort on a 1-week holiday and thought they'd give it a go.
I wonder how their skill level vs terrain/risk ratio compares to the average 1-week a year skier "trying out that blue/red/black run" with regard to skiing concussion/injury risks?
Jnr has been carted off to hospital this year with a suspected punctured lung from a crash in competition (fortunately got away without much damage in the end!), his friend fractured a vertebrae freeskiing a month or so back, so there are definitely considerable short term risks as well as the long term ones. So why do we let him do it?
- mainly because he wants to!
- it gives him focus and an understanding of how to train for something. This translates beyond skiing
- He learns to deal with sponsors, marketing, and business relationships already
- Learns to balance risk vs reward and the importance of good decision making. It is very tempting to go into a competition and send it as big as possible down the gnarliest line - but is it worth it? Eventually they figure out its not! 
So am I concerned about the possibility of short or long term injury - of course! But he also plays field hockey (as I once did) and I'm concerned about him getting smashed in the face with a stick or a ball at 100mph - would I stop him doing it - absolutely not. He rides a mountain bike down some crazy north shore trails with his friends - would I stop him doing it - absolutely not. There are many risks everyday, so it is a matter of balancing them and doing the best to mitigate any possible downsides.
Would I be happier if he sat in his room all day, or hung out at the mall? - absolutely not. Well I guess he has a lower concussion risk, but all sorts of other downsides
Being the parent of a freeride kid and watching them ski is a whole other thing - it is pretty damaging to my mental (and financial) health!!!
If you've been to whistler and been in the peak line cheering on the crazy people jumping the waterfalls and Air Jordan - well I'm the one looking a bit nervous in case it's my son launching them!
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 9-03-23 19:29; edited 7 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Interesting perspective, @stuarth!  Good luck to your son.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| An unofficial straw-poll from reading the inevitable Whatsapp groups that come with kids sports clubs these days makes me think that Football (or soccer if you will) seems to result in far more injuries than Rugby - kids are forever having to drop out of training and matches because they've got a break or sprain from school/club/park football. @Alex_Sideways is 1 for 1 on the heftier football/rugby injuries sporting a shoulder disloc. from football and a concussion through rugby. |
My understanding is that what makes rugby so dangerous is the repeated, apparently low-level (non-concussive or perhaps non-diagnosed concussive) head injuries that don’t cause players to drop out of training or matches.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jmr59 wrote: |
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| An unofficial straw-poll from reading the inevitable Whatsapp groups that come with kids sports clubs these days makes me think that Football (or soccer if you will) seems to result in far more injuries than Rugby - kids are forever having to drop out of training and matches because they've got a break or sprain from school/club/park football. @Alex_Sideways is 1 for 1 on the heftier football/rugby injuries sporting a shoulder disloc. from football and a concussion through rugby. |
My understanding is that what makes rugby so dangerous is the repeated, apparently low-level (non-concussive or perhaps non-diagnosed concussive) head injuries that don’t cause players to drop out of training or matches. |
Mine too.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Interesting thread.
Personally I'd it's irresponsible. He has his whole life ahead to ski. There is no reason he needs to be filming parts and skiing such big lines yet. Even if it's what he wants to do, kids that age don't fully understand the risks involved. Of course I'm not saying he shouldn't Freeride or push himself at all - I just think there's a suitable balance somewhere and right now the risk is too high.
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I can't see rugby existing in its current contact form in 40 years time
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The science supports lowering the tackle height. France have already implemented waist height. UK are trying but there's been a big push back by the players. I guess their argument is if they know the risk why can't they play the sport how they desire. Will be interesting to see how safer rules change the game going forward. Probably sacrilege to rugby purists, but get rid of the scrum and some of the physicality for a faster and more skillful game and it might actually bring in more fans (I know personally I'd much rather watch a sevens game than a full sided).
A lot of Freeride purists hate the current FWT scoring system, which is probably making the sport safer (relative of course). We'd rather watch the likes of navarro ski big mountain high consequence lines with no tricks even if the landings are a little sloppy, than someone trick a bunch of side court wind lips. So I can fully understand why rugby players might not want their sport changed.
@pam w, actually some research that kids that play a bunch of different sports growing up are more likely to become pros than those that are made to focus on just one. Of course lots of confounding variables but it's something that's definitely being researched further right now.
@stuarth, I doubt most people realise just how high the level is of junior free ski comps in n America. Seen a few at kicking horse and red, and it's humbling to see what 14 year old kids can already do. Most self proclaimed "experts" will never get close to that level.
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Sorry to hear he was injured. Inevitable with any sport like this. FWIW Skiing- I've dislocated my shoulder twice, wife has also (although one was whilst opening a hot tub lid) and eldest child has dislocated his shoulder twice skiing and then about 3 other times due to the first injury which was in a race. I guess the sorts of outrageous injury that could happen to Kai would be avalanche / tree well / mountain specific rather than a contact sport type injury that many people could see as analogous to injuries in rugby / riding / regular ski racing.
Brilliant films, I love the bits with him chewing his tongue. He is so obviously 'in the zone'.
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I have personal doubts about pushing/encouraging (the line is very difficult to discern) young kids into "excellence" in any sport (or most other things, come to that). None of mine had the kind of special talent or keenness which demanded hard decisions about what they, or other members of the family, had to "give up". Endless exhausting early morning swimming sessions, for example. And the damage - of all sorts - to young gymnasts of both sexes is well documented. One of my nieces was a talented young gymnast and coaches were keen - but my sister and brother in law were quite relieved when she decided off her own bat that she didn't want to do it (she's now a GP and still runs and cycles a ridiculous amount). I admire excellence in musicians, having never had any great talent myself, but once interviewed a young woman at the Civil Service Selection Board who had not only been highly talented (loads of kids are) but could at one point have realistically looked at a concern career. She had had years of real difficulty - like someone who "almost" made the Olympic team, or did so an "almost" won a medal. The way she had coped with it was admirable (and she made it through CSSB and, I hope, had a great career in the civil service) but it had been at huge personal cost which she spoke about with impressive insight and self-awareness. |
There is now a growing number of support groups set up to help those youngsters that go through the academy system in UK soccer, are dangled the carrot of so much, but never quite make the grade. The groups are pressuring for those with money within the sport (top clubs) to divert some of it to improve the outcomes for those the systems drops.
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