Of course they have done their research. However, they can not possibly accurately know the mean income of their customers. You think they record the income of every person that buys an epic pass?! Besides as I said the mean would be totally screwed by a few mega rich outliers.
@boarder2020,
Although in causal talk on forums people often use average income. When people look at statistics of income in a population they almost invariably use median to describe the central tendency rather than mean precisely because otherwise the mega rich will skew what any population looks like even at country level.
Taking a random sample it's pretty easy to make an estimate of median income.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
So if I go to Banff for 11 days skiing, it’s better to get a season pass? Is there a catch, like they stop selling them after November?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
It's not a catch. They usually stop selling Epic and Ikon pretty soon after US thanksgiving. And I don't think Banff days are unlimited maybe 7 days on a full Ikon.
The intent behind the passes is pre season/ summer cashfliow and to lock in visitors who will then spend on f&b, lidging etc. Tourists who want to decide on a more leisurely timerable pay the tourist price.
Screw lift prices in the US. We fly to Europe to do our skiing since passes are drastically cheaper, as are private lessons. We save enough in those two areas to cover the cost of airfare and then some. I'd rather ski in the Alps, eat great food and drink great wine/beer in a real chalet than a fake one in Colorado.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
stuarth wrote:
... Skiing is never going to be cheap anywhere, but a bit of a shame if people get priced out of doing it.
I wish someone had told the world that when I was a kid. Skiing used to be very much a rich peoples' game.
I think it's got a fair way to go before we're back there.
The best "first tracks" thing I know is Snowbird, where Seven Summits members get on the slopes an hour before
the first (season ticket holders only) tram. You get to park right outside the lodge, the breakfast is worth eating,
and if you can be bothered to stay out once the resort opens, you don't need to stand in line.
If you have to ask the price....
--
I think the Epic Pass thing is a brilliant piece of business strategy.
If they aren't teaching MBA people about it (stupidly), then they will be soon.
@boarder2020,
Although in causal talk on forums people often use average income. When people look at statistics of income in a population they almost invariably use median to describe the central tendency rather than mean precisely because otherwise the mega rich will skew what any population looks like even at country level.
Taking a random sample it's pretty easy to make an estimate of median income.
I still don't buy it. But it's a rather moot point anyone. Pre epic my whistler season pass cost $1,439. Every season since an epic pass has been less than that cost (and less than a regular an season pass). By definition cheaper skiing with epic than without it.
It's perhaps a little unfair to compare euro passes and n American passes directly anyway. North America you are getting better customer service and get controlled in bounds. Realistically I would probably need a guide to ski the same kinds of terrain in Europe, then still have the hassle of carrying avy gear and the risk of being caught in a slide. (Of course in bounds slides have happened but are so rare). Also way more snow and generally less crowds in north America.
As with most things it's possible to do north America on a budget. My 2 months in BC this year including all costs (flights, lift pass, food, accommodation) are coming to around £2200. Imo great value for 60 days snowboarding.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I'm skiing in Japan at the moment and there are a few things the iifties do here that are much better than north America or Europe.
The telecabine staff take your skis off you and put them in the carriers . A great boon with twin tip skis and hand them to you at the top.
A lifty with a sqeezy wipes the rain off the chair lift so you have a drier bottom.
The lift structure is pretty antiquated but there are so few skiers that there is never any one in front of you in the queue.
Mind you a few foot rests and safety bars would be appreciated
After all it is free
After all it is free
@ItaloSkier, Exactly. And I say this as an American who bagged the sport in my late 20s as I could not afford to ski in quality resorts. But when we moved to France -- voila! Now we've found the Dolomites you'd have a really hard time getting me to spend my money at a US resort with a "base village."
Airfare aside, a family of four, without pinching pennies, can spend a week in Selva (which you could compare to Vail as far as prestige), for around 3,000 euros, in a comfortable apartment, including great on slope lunches and a few dinners out. And the greatest snomaking and most modern lifts in the world. OK, compared to the US you give up legal in-bounds off piste.
@boarder2020, A single skier or couple willing to rough it a bit can still ski the good stuff in the US/Canada if you manage your lift passes correctly. But apples to apples, for a family confined to the school vacations, Europe wins hands down.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
The telecabine staff take your skis off you and put them in the carriers
Pretty common practice in Canada. Whistler gondola and kicking horse gondola both do this. I heard in Beaver creek they even carry your skis from the bus stop to the lifts
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I've skied regularly in the States and in Canada over the past few years, and I don't think that I have ever paid the kiosk price for a lift pass. There is always a deal available somewhere.
Despite the received wisdom, North American passes have often been cheaper for my particular circumstances. Some resorts give free or very sharply discounted tickets to teenagers, for example. Other resorts offer cheap passes provided you don't live in the USA. Sometimes you get a huge discount if you buy a pass at the same time as your accommodation.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Pasigal wrote:
@ItaloSkier, Exactly. And I say this as an American who bagged the sport in my late 20s as I could not afford to ski in quality resorts. But when we moved to France -- voila! Now we've found the Dolomites you'd have a really hard time getting me to spend my money at a US resort with a "base village."
Airfare aside, a family of four, without pinching pennies, can spend a week in Selva (which you could compare to Vail as far as prestige), for around 3,000 euros, in a comfortable apartment, including great on slope lunches and a few dinners out. And the greatest snomaking and most modern lifts in the world. OK, compared to the US you give up legal in-bounds off piste.
@boarder2020, A single skier or couple willing to rough it a bit can still ski the good stuff in the US/Canada if you manage your lift passes correctly. But apples to apples, for a family confined to the school vacations, Europe wins hands down.
Exactly it... I'm working on preliminary plans for Selva or Corvara for next year. The overall experience... the food, the scenery, the charm... you cannot come close in the US.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
What I will never understand is when French resorts decide to upgrade a chair, and have to choose between a 4, 6, or 8 manner, they never think it’d be cheaper to go with the 4 man and pay a liftie to manage a singles line, than go with an 8 man and run it half empty even on the busiest days. The Americans don’t run the queues like that for the fun of it, but because it’s the cheapest way to get x thousand people per hour up that hill.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
johnE wrote:
I'm skiing in Japan at the moment and there are a few things the iifties do here that are much better than north America or Europe.
The telecabine staff take your skis off you and put them in the carriers . A great boon with twin tip skis and hand them to you at the top.
A lifty with a sqeezy wipes the rain off the chair lift so you have a drier bottom.
Practically all mountains in North America do the last piece. It's rare they don't.
As for the telecabine part, my casual observation is about 1/2 of the NA mountains do that too.
So, whatever your impression of the US/Canada, you've gone to the wrong mountains.
Pasigal wrote:
OK, compared to the US you give up legal in-bounds off piste.
That's a BIG give up!
It's the difference between a holiday devoted to skiing vs a holiday that has some sort of skiing.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
abc wrote:
johnE wrote:
A lifty with a sqeezy wipes the rain off the chair lift so you have a drier bottom.
Practically all mountains in North America do the last piece. It's rare they don't.
Rain!?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Steve77 wrote:
What I will never understand is when French resorts decide to upgrade a chair, and have to choose between a 4, 6, or 8 manner, they never think it’d be cheaper to go with the 4 man and pay a liftie to manage a singles line, than go with an 8 man and run it half empty even on the busiest days.
Have you ever tried managing French people in a queue?
The telecabine staff take your skis off you and put them in the carriers
In Vail the staff rammed my immaculate 2 week old sick days into the telecabine rack and dinked them quite badly. The resort did pay for a service as compensation but even so, I refused to let them do it again. Maybe I was unlucky.
Quote:
Have you ever tried managing French people in a queue?
but you don't need a liftie to manage a singles line, you just need a singles line.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
abc wrote:
johnE wrote:
A lifty with a sqeezy wipes the rain off the chair lift so you have a drier bottom.
Practically all mountains in North America do the last piece. It's rare they don't.
Rain!? Shocked wink
Well it was Japan
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
But nobody pays that price. Next season's epic pass is on sale for $939 and gives unlimited skiing at Beaver creek.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
abc wrote:
Pasigal wrote:
OK, compared to the US you give up legal in-bounds off piste.
That's a BIG give up!
It's the difference between a holiday devoted to skiing vs a holiday that has some sort of skiing.
Hardly. If you're like 90 percent of the skiers out there, you'll never venture off piste, let alone off a marked trail.
For the remaining 10 percent, I agree wholeheartedly that the US/Canada are probably an equally good deal to going someplace like La Grave/Cham/etc and hiring a guide. That is the one thing that I miss from the US -- short hikes to in-bounds ungroomed areas...and glades. I really miss glades.
Hardly. If you're like 90 percent of the skiers out there, you'll never venture off piste, let alone off a marked trail.
Maybe 90% in Europe, in north America I would say at least 50% are going off piste, probably more. I suspect in Europe that 10% would rise if there was more controlled off piste. However, some of it is attitude, most n America skiers are wearing powder skis, there is no real emphasis on apres or nice lunch stops. Europe is more nice holiday with a bit of skiing thrown in for a lot.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Pasigal wrote:
Hardly. If you're like 90 percent of the European skiers out there, you'll never venture off piste, let alone off a marked trail.
Fix it for you
After all it is free
After all it is free
Been saying this for years about the American lift system, once you have tried it, you will be disappointed with anything else.
They manage the lines, no pushing and shoving or abuse, they fill the chairs, they are efficient, polite and professional.
My main reason for us not going back to France for over 10 years is the appalling way they treat their customers.
Yes the lift tickets are costly in the US but they are so worth it.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Been saying this for years about the American lift system, once you have tried it, you will be disappointed with anything else.
They manage the lines, no pushing and shoving or abuse, they fill the chairs, they are efficient, polite and professional.
My main reason for us not going back to France for over 10 years is the appalling way they treat their customers.
Yes the lift tickets are costly in the US but they are so worth it.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
There's always a lot of chatter on the US centric ski blogs about lift pass prices. Especially the walk up window rates. Over USD 150 these days for the Vail Resorts and the Ikon resorts. But they are currently selling those passes now at pre-season pricing to entice people to pay for them now. Nice bit of cash in the pockets of the companies. A lot of folks are complaining about what those passes have done to the lift ques and slopes being more crowded. It is becoming a rich man's sport, or really already has. Not too many families that can afford the cost of transportation, lodging, F&B, and lift passes for a family of 4,5,6 or more. Yet, every season, I season families skiing in the mtns. Taking lessons, eating in the lodges, etc. So as long as the resorts can lure skiers to the resorts with these Ikon and Epic passes, they will continue to make their money on the rest of the package. Ski rentals, ski lessons, lodging and F&B.
And depending on the resort, you will get a certain clientele that like to ski off-piste. Whistler Blackcomb, Kicking Horse, Revelstoke, Jackson Hole, Aspen Highlands, Squaw Valley, Alta, Snowbird all have reputations for off-piste skiing. You also risk losing your pass or at least a very stern warning at US resorts if you duck the ropes.
And generally the lifties that run the US ski lifts are pretty good at mitigating shenanigans with lift lines. Especially on powder days when the agro powder hounds tend to put their manners in their back pockets. But a good lifty will chill everyone out and de-escalate the situation. If not, patrol gets called in, and they take care of it.
Still me and my North American buddies like to get over to Europe every other year or so to experience the ski culture of Europe. The on mtn food, the apres and those big beautiful mountains.
Edit to add: I bought the Ikon pass for this season. Got 12 days of skiing in for $649. Walk up price for those 12 days would have been $1,646. I know a lot of folks that got way more use out of theirs. Lots of retired folks love the Epic and Ikon passes. Ran into them all over at Aspen-Snowmass.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
With the US lift system it's not just the wait time, it's the knowledge that things are operating fairly and that no-one is going to push in on you (with the exception of ski school classes on Snowmass Cirque Poma -- hang your head in shame Aspen ski school for abuse of priveleges) which makes everything less stressful. And a lot of the time midweek or in the afternoon you can ski straight on even on a "busy" day if you are single.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
And a lot of the time midweek or in the afternoon you can ski straight on
Well, the same thing applies a lot of the time in Europe, to be fair.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
pam w wrote:
Quote:
And a lot of the time midweek or in the afternoon you can ski straight on
Well, the same thing applies a lot of the time in Europe, to be fair.
Absolutely most places I ski most of the time I don't queue at all, popular places high season have some pinch points and there are one or two places when it can be quite bad high season though Whistler is one of the worst I've come across.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
Absolutely most places I ski most of the time I don't queue at all, popular places high season have some pinch points and there are one or two places when it can be quite bad high season though Whistler is one of the worst I've come across.
My longest ever wait for a lift was whistler, about 50mins. However, it was the perfect storm - holidays + big snow dump + all alpine lifts closed due to avy danger. I did a whole season there and it was usually walk straight on, at most a minute or two on a regular non-powder day. Even on powder days you didn't need to wait more than 5-10mins if you knew what you were doing.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
It has been a long time since I have skied Whistler, but I do recall one lift with a big queue and a coffee trailor by it. I wondered if it would be a good idea to issue a ticket when you arrived at the lift, then you could enjoy a coffee while waiting for your number to be called.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
johnE wrote:
It has been a long time since I have skied Whistler, but I do recall one lift with a big queue and a coffee trailor by it. I wondered if it would be a good idea to issue a ticket when you arrived at the lift, then you could enjoy a coffee while waiting for your number to be called.
Harmony. Probably on a powder day.
as above though Whistler may be crowded but is also pretty easy to circumvent if you're prepared to not think like a tourist, take secondary lifts and sacrifice a bit of the slim chance of a fresh line only available by standing in a line for 2-3 hours (e.g. Peak Chair before it opens after an alpine storm)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Wow, I've never seen anything like that in BC - you were very, very unlucky as you note.
Back in the day I think they used to refund you the ticket if you had to wait more than 10 minutes.
It is a zoo though - you can definitely find the crowds if you think like they do. I'm told that the new Epic Pass
system has if anything increased the lemming-level, which is reportedly good if you're a bit more free thinking.
There's also that whole thing about opening up the mountain after a bug dump, but that's not quite the same
thing, in my view. If you want somewhere that you don't need to wait for the avalanche control, find somewhere with no snow
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
boarder2020 wrote:
Quote:
9-day lift pass in Beaver Creek, $1323. Ouch
But nobody pays that price. Next season's epic pass is on sale for $939 and gives unlimited skiing at Beaver creek.
That is fat lot of use for people who want to/can only visit for 1 week-10 days. $939 is still a huge rip off if you only want 6-9 days skiing, plus you can only get that if you buy it by November or something daft.
The US epic types passes are killing off the 1 week visitors. Like I say, back in Jan I had what I considered an un-refusable deal on BA for flights and accommodation for a week in Breckenridge in April. I'd have booked. Then I realised it was going to cost something like 2.5-3k for lift tickets for a family of 2 adults and 2 children for the 7 days to ski (almost the same as epic pass holders paid for an enitre season!). This is versus a late season pass in April in the Espace Killy or 3v (both with massively bigger lift infrastrucutre and piste kms than Breck) which is under 1k for a family of 4 for 7 days, or even 500-600 EUR if we get one of the family deals in Austria where the kids are free (eg. Ski Amade, or even Sybells in France). Epic and Breckendridge therefore lost my cash. I'm going to Europe instead.
Certainly not a powder day and I cannot recall the lift. I fact if I recall it hadn't snowed at all when we were there. It was just a queue of about 10-15 minutes
Quote:
Wow, I've never seen anything like that in BC - you were very, very unlucky as you note.
Back in the day I think they used to refund you the ticket if you had to wait more than 10 minutes.
That would have been nice. I wonder if they would have refunded 3 times that amount for the 30 minute queue to get the gondola first thing in the morning. There was a well marshalled queue for the queue and it was over 15 years ago. I imagine they have upgraded their lift structure since then
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
30 minute queue to get the gondola
Gondola... you're talking about the Whistler side then.
... There was a well marshalled queue for the queue and it was over 15 years ago. I imagine they have upgraded their lift structure since then
I did say "back in the day", so back another 15 or so. It may have been Banff - I can't remember, but it was one or the other.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
That is fat lot of use for people who want to/can only visit for 1 week-10 days. $939 is still a huge rip off if you only want 6-9 days skiing, plus you can only get that if you buy it by November or something daft.
That's just how it is. The system benefits some (locals) and is worse for others (visitors). Although at $200 Vail day tickets a pass can pay for itself in 5 days. There are also plenty of cheaper options outside epic/ikon (Breckenridge is not a cheap option!), my season pass for red mountain this year was £470 granted it was bought at the early bird price. As for having to buy early, it's no different to buying flights (look at the threads about people having to buy flight the day they are released). At least with the early ski passes you have the flexibility to see where the snow is as they cover multiple resorts.
It's worth noting the 1 week/10 day holiday is quite a European thing. The North Americans get a lot less holiday leave so most are doing long weekend ski trips. So there are probably less people sitting on the bubble of wether buying a pass is worthwhile. Most vacationers will do a couple of days and shell out for day passes. The locals and weekend warriors know they are going to easily cover the days needed to break even and get a pass - plus have the benefits of being able to ski a bunch of resorts.
Quote:
It is a zoo though - you can definitely find the crowds if you think like they do. I'm told that the new Epic Pass
system has if anything increased the lemming-level, which is reportedly good if you're a bit more free thinking.
This is what I've heard. Village is heaving, but a lot of beginner/intermediate skiers sticking to the obvious stuff.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Pasigal wrote:
@ItaloSkier, Exactly. And I say this as an American who bagged the sport in my late 20s as I could not afford to ski in quality resorts. But when we moved to France -- voila! Now we've found the Dolomites you'd have a really hard time getting me to spend my money at a US resort with a "base village."
Airfare aside, a family of four, without pinching pennies, can spend a week in Selva (which you could compare to Vail as far as prestige), for around 3,000 euros, in a comfortable apartment, including great on slope lunches and a few dinners out. And the greatest snomaking and most modern lifts in the world. OK, compared to the US you give up legal in-bounds off piste.
@boarder2020, A single skier or couple willing to rough it a bit can still ski the good stuff in the US/Canada if you manage your lift passes correctly. But apples to apples, for a family confined to the school vacations, Europe wins hands down.
This is not comparing apples with apples.
Skiing in the Dolomites is a great experience but it’s nothing like skiing a big North American hill.
If I had to spend the rest of my skiing days largely on piste on man made snow I would probably lose interest. Now put me at Snowbird, Jackson or Whistler etc for the rest of my days and I’d be delighted.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
This is versus a late season pass in April in the Espace Killy or 3v (both with massively bigger lift infrastrucutre and piste kms than Breck) which is under 1k for a family of 4 for 7 days, or even 500-600 EUR if we get one of the family deals in Austria where the kids are free (eg. Ski Amade, or even Sybells in France). Epic and Breckendridge therefore lost my cash. I'm going to Europe instead.
Going back to my point about there being more affordable resorts than Breck. Loveland lift pass depending on your April dates would have been about £1000 for 4 adults to ski 7 days. A-basin is still selling unlimited skiing mid week passes for £230 for adults or £166 for under 18s, or £35 day passes. So it would have been possible to get 7 days skiing in colorado for around £1k. Time 10 days right and you can get 10 days for £300 per adult - which seems very good value imo.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
It's worth noting the 1 week/10 day holiday is quite a European thing.
I suspect that's more specifically a Brit thing. I wouldn't be too surprised the French, Swiss or Austrian ski a lot more than 1 week/year!
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I wish someone had told the world that when I was a kid. Skiing used to be very much a rich peoples' game.
but you don't need a liftie to manage a singles line, you just need a singles line.