Snow Chains/Socks if we have Winter Tyres

A snowHead

Was stuck on the way up last week behind a BMW with snow tyres, carrying socks and chains. I suspect a better prepared driver may have made it. A few thoughts;

Read the owner's manual. My other BM has a 'traction' setting in the traction control to allow some wheel slip. Without it, engine power is cut as soon a slip is detected = no forward progress.

Make sure the socks fit (they didn't).

Practice fitting the chains with the car loaded. There's much less clearance around the tyre with a full boot.

One tip from a winter driving course, if you cannot restart on an incline, reverse back turning the car until it is across the road, then start on the 'flat' turning into the slope. (Perhaps not so useful when there's traffic coming the other way, or a precipice at the side of the road....)

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It's odd @LaForet, that I find myself agreeing with what you say, and @mooney058's opposing position, at the same time. I am on the

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I agree with @under a new name

In a couple of seasons as a driver with a few snowmageddons, I put chains on winter equipped FWD vehicles all the time but never once on our 4WD Land Rovers or my own 4WD Subaru and Audi. I had/have unopened snowsocks in the boot for both my own cars.

@LaForet, your probability isn't 1 in 7. If you drive every day in a four month season it's 1 in 840 or 0.1%.

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@caughtanedge, a 1 in 7 probability is once a week if you drive every day. That clearly isn't correct for chain use on an 4WD vehicle with winter tyres, which is what was being discussed. Nobody's disputing that you will need chains on a 2WD vehicle from time to time, whatever the tyres.

After all it is free

I just carry some snow sox now, easier to put on and they've never let me down in the past 7 years of using them both in UK and in Valmeiner. If I really needed snow chains I think I'd just sit that day out.

Yeh point to note many car rentals at GVA are no longer including chains in the boot - which used to be included in a sealed box just in case. I enquired at Hertz last weekend and attendant view was you have winter tyres and now go away and let me deal with the next person in line.

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@Raceplate, I think @LaForet was talking about the probability per trip, not per day of using the vehicle, and that's what affects your decision to buy chains and chuck them in the boot, or not. This thread has covered a range of vehicle types, tyre types, driver skills etc - there are plenty of videos out there of 4x4 vehicles sliding gracefully sideways or downhill on icy roads (not Snowheads of course). I'm happy to pay out for 2 sets of chains in 16 years - a small outlay compared to the cost of all those trips.

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I think if you have all season tyres instead of full on winter tyres, these have more sips and usually a more aggressive tread, then you are asking for trouble in the Alps.
I think driving ability is another issue, some posters on here claim they have had to put chains on to get 4x4 vehicles out of car parks which is obviously nonsense, it's their incompetence.
I agree about 2 wheel drive cars, occasionally you might need chains, but putting them on has its own risks, because they snap regularly, and get thrown off if the car loses traction.

The gendarmes don't carry chains in their 4x4, I asked a few last winter. Nor will they ask you to put chains on if you have a 4x4 and winter tyres, because snapped chains cause so many issues.
Unfortunately chains are not a solve all panacea to lack of experience on snow, and not having a 4x4 with winter tyres, especially the flimsy ones from supermarkets.

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Hi

Probably overkill but I aim for the most uneventful journey as possible. My set up is 4WD, winter tyres with M+S and 3PMSSF (Continental Winter Contact TS) on each wheel and a set of chains behind the drivers seat just in case. Never had an issue.

You know it makes sense.

@Ozboy, Hah, hah!! This is why a Swiss rental in front of us on Tuesday was slithering all over the place on admittedly quite slippy roads ... winter tyres but applying way, way too much pressure with the right foot. (N.B. the conditions were not conducive to chains and would have shredded sox in 2 minutes - well cleaned road with light snow on thin ice, rather rough, too thin for chains to catch, too rough for sox to last but very slippy, if you didn't know what you were doing).

@nevis1003, we had new all seasons on our 4WD car the first winter, they were great. For "reasons" we kept them on all summer and the tread went down to around 5mm. They got swapped for proper winters by the first week of January Shocked

It wasn't the snowiest winter but when it snowed properly, it snowed properly. @LaForet, has shown on here a very nice diagram of when chains/socks are a valid choice and the decision space is not huge.

@Griggs, have you ever needed to use your chains?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Hi

No never had to call on the services of the chains - 4WD and the winter tyres cope well. Chains are specifically for low profile vehicles - so my car is a BMW M Sport 320d X-Drive Touring. Chains are laid over the tyre without the need to reach around the back and are then secured to a wheel nut. You tension the chain to the tyre and then slowly drive off and the chain will centre itself on the tyre and auto tension further. After a short distance you check all OK and then carry on. Despite the ease of fitting I hope to not have to use them as guaranteed if you need to fit them it will be snowing, in the dark and by the side of a busy road ! If you do get chains make sure you practice fitting them at home, have them in the car with you (rather than buried in the boot), have something to kneel on, some gloves and a head torch is also useful.

A snowHead

There’s a You Tube tyre test doing the rounds at the moment.

Essentially a Mid-range 4x4 driven on a snow covered slope with Summer, All Season and then Winter tyres. Exactly the same test carried out for all 3 tyre types. I think (my wife reported on the test) that the test was on grip under braking (distance). Clearly, the Summer tyres were awful. The effectiveness of All Season were closer to Summer tyres than Winter!

We have a 4x4 and only use Winter tyres in Winter (alpine village, Austria). Never had to use chains. Waived on by the police at control points where chains are being advised/insisted on for mountain roads in difficult conditions. That said, in Winter, we always have a set of chains in the car….just in case!

A snowHead

I have a Merc e-class estate with 4Matic to which I am running Michelin Cross Climate 2 all-season tyres. I've been driving to Chatel for over 5 years (2-3 trips per winter) where we have encountered some severe snow conditions both on route and in resort (we live up a 1Km 10pct incline, seldom ploughed), as well as torrential rain. No issues to date with lack of traction when other [CH] cars and busses around us have been stuck or stopped to install chains going up the Pas du Morgins. I do have a pair of expensive easy-fit Thule chains in the back of the car and to date I've never had to use them - but I would never leave home without them including an old avi shovel, scaffolding gloves and a head-torch packed in the bag. I really like the Cross-Climates and think they are also great around London in the wet winter for added traction.

Tyre Reviews youtube channel has some really good comparison tests:

http://youtube.com/v/QQQjamHdqZk

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@Ozboy, just for comparison, our old house was up a 300m road, usually well ploughed but average 13% and max (per Google Earth anyway) 30% incline ...

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

So where to start on this debate….
I am competent driver on snow, my early driving involved a lot of driving on snow.
I have winter tyres, decent make, etc
I have driven my car to Cervinia in quite heavy snow, and did not need chains
This week to La Tania I needed chains, first time in 15 years of driving up the mountains…..so not required previously, but it was wet slushy snow and I believe that was a factor.
I do drive a rear wheel drive automatic so not an ideal vehicle, but this time I definitely needed chains.

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Tips:
New snow is the slickest, so you are most likely to get caught out soon after it starts snowing.
It usually snows at night, or it does for me.
You can get really stuck with a 4WD
I'll carry chains or socks (never tried them though) even at Easter.
Practice makes perfect.
When you are driving in the dark and the snow is coming through the dark like stair rods at you, take extreme care when drive into our out of a tunnel, there will probably be black ice there.

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It may seem trite to mention this, but prompted by the good Doctor's advice re. getting stuck with a 4wd:

4wd will get you moving, but it won't help you stop.

I used to run our regional 4x4 response team working with blue light services across the South West UK whenever weather conditions meant "normal" cars couldn't get about.

Our advice to all our drivers was "Don't brake all the way to the junction, drive to it" (basically slow down naturally then drive slowly to the junction, because sure as eggs is eggs, you will sail straight through the junction with your ABS chattering if you try to brake to the line). We also advocated avoiding roads with a central reservation in poor conditions, as it only takes one car going sideways to block it and no amount of 4x4 will get you past them, but on a back road you can do a u-turn.

Re. chains, I've had to use them on a Discovery 4 fitted with winter tyres on two occasions, about 10 years back when we saw -10C here in Dorset. Each was on steep (1:4) exposed rural roads. As soon as I got clear of those sections, off they came. I've never needed chains in the alps in 25 years of driving there, but I've always had them with me.

After all it is free

Winter tyres will help you stop, but obviously much greater stopping distance should be allowed, and a huge distance between car in front.
Best advice is probably don't drive in France to or from a ski resort on a Saturday. Beware of Dutch drivers rolling eyes

There are a lot of opinions and assertions in this thread. The FACT is that the French police will sometimes demand that all cars other than 4WD vehicles with decent winter tyres MUST put chains on before they are allowed to drive up to resorts. Certainly, having chains as well as winter tyres is not a general legal requirement. But on some days it you won't get up the hill without them. It doesn't happen often, but it happens. Happened twice to me on very snowy transfer days and happened once to one of my visitors, in a rented car from Gva airport, with winter tyres.

That's three times in 15 winters. But there were one or two occasions each winter when I put chains on my winter tyres not because I was obliged to, and not because I am a crap driver, but because I knew that if forced to a stop on a tricky bit of road (probably by someone who believed the assurances that he'd never need chains on a car with winter tyres) I would lose traction and not be in a position to put on chains. Putting chains on a car is like reefing the sails on a boat - you do it when you first think of it, not when you are on the brink losing control, or have already lost it.

This is, it seems, much more likely to happen in France where resorts are often up steep, winding roads than in Austria or Switzerland, where they are more likely to be lower down on roads with much easier geometry. Many French resort roads have an "aire de chainage" where you can pull off for precisely to put your chains on. Sailing blithely past the "aire de chainage" on a nasty snowy night, relying on assurances from an internet forum, is pretty stupid. Those of us who have driven on steep snowy roads a lot lot have woven our way past people trying to put on chains in the most unsuitable places and causing havoc.

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Personally, I would not put chains on with winter tyres because chains snap, or wrap around the transmission. Particularly with a 4x4 they are not required. Pam, you were the person that said you need chains on a 4x4 to get out a car park once, so I can't take anything you say about driving seriously. Cool

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You know it makes sense.

And if you think I am lying when I say that the French police DO stop cars going up the hill without chains, you're mistaken. Like they will stop people taking (otherwise perfectly legal) side roads off the main road to the Tarentaise. Loads of reports about that on Snowheads. Personally, I've never been daft enough to try to drive into the Tarentaise on a snowmageddon transfer day.

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I don't think 4WDs are normally required to put on chains - but anyone who has spent much time round snowy French drives has seen lots in ditches. I will if pushed too far re-tell my story of towing a Porsche Cayenne out of a snowdrift with my Fiat Multipla. Laughing

A snowHead

I saw that before, great story!!

A snowHead

So @nevis1003, where's your evidence that I needed chains to drive a 4x4 out of a car park?

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The Frenchman in the Porsche Cayenne didn't think so. I had 4 good winter tyres but still had to put my chains on to have enough traction to pull his stupid great vehicle out of the snowdrift where his machismo had put it. He was pathetically grateful as it was 11 o'clock on a dark and snowy night.

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@pam w, you were very kind to help. I would have made it contingent on him pinky swearing of getting winter tyres or, in case he had them on, to do winter driving training Smile

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He was on a downhill bend in a huge, top-heavy, vehicle. Every bit as ugly as a Multipla but laughably more expensive. Of course we helped. 4 British old age pensioners in a Fiat Multipla. Laughing

I bet he didn't tell his mates. We needed 4 people - 2 to go up and down the road to flag down any oncoming vehicles as we had to pull him obliquely across the road, one to drive the towing vehicle and one to help him push his heap of crap out of the snow.

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He flagged us down, but we would probably have stopped anyway, seeing a car off the side of the road - he was nose in to a heap of that very hard stuff pushed up by a snowplough.

After all it is free

@pam w, defo a great story.

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Many people seem to think if they have 4WD /AWD with summer or M&S tyres then they don't need chains. If you have a 4WD /AWD with summer tyres but can't fit chains to the vehicle then in really bad snow conditions where chains are required you are stuffed (technical term).

Help!!

Snow Chains/Socks if we have Winter Tyres

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