 Poster: A snowHead
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@crosbie, no, I really don't think they do.
They (presumably) haven't paid for a lift pass and a piste is expressly if perhaps informally set aside for downhill. Otherwise it would't be a piste.
I just think it's dangerous.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@under a new name, trespassers will be vindictively collided with eh? 
Is this just the 5 minute argument, or the full half-hour?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@crosbie, 5 minute only.
I just think it’s dangerous. Enough idiots out there without adding the analogue of the cyclists going up the wrong way of a one way street.
A thing that also gets my goat! 
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Extraordinary scenes a few years ago when a group of tourers decided to cut straight across the piste that was being used for the Belalp-Hexe (Open) Downhill... |
They seem to like using any race piste when it is in use.
I have wondered whether this was some statement about the whole mountain being available for use.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Pistes cost money to maintain and patrol. Anyone using them should expect to pay - albeit less than for a lift pass. There should be separate routes uphill. Most resorts have tracks for walkers and raquettes. If enough people want it, it will happen and resorts will work it out.
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I assume there is uphill Strava or the like for resort uphill tourers. How else will people prove their bragging rights?
Some observations from Patscherkofel on a snowy but moist day. Uphill traffic seemed to be exceeding downhill at times. A lot of people seemed to hop on lift at midpoint etc. So I'm not sure it's motivated by saving on a pass. The Innsbruck season pass is so cheap it would seem daft not to have one even only for variety of access to higher points you could skin from.
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Why don’t the skinners go up near the piste rather than on the piste?
They get the avi controll benefit without the potential hazard of collision?
They won’t get the peace and quiet of nature. But if it’s a high avi risk day , that maybe a good compromise?
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| under a new name wrote: |
@crosbie, no, I really don't think they do.
They (presumably) haven't paid for a lift pass and a piste is expressly if perhaps informally set aside for downhill. Otherwise it would't be a piste.
I just think it's dangerous. |
Who owns the land? who has right of way, the winter mountain walkers, snowshoers (and more recently ski tourers) or the people who came along later and built a ski resort there?
If it's dangerous then maybe it's best to close all pistes that run over a public right of way.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Regarding it being considered dangerous:-
I’m not sure how watching what an uphill slow moving tourer skinning up the side of the piste is doing (agreed if they are cutting across the middle of the piste then that would be different) is any different to watching what skiers downhill of you are doing. There are always obstacles, young unpredictable kids, beginners etc.
Surely as long as you give everyone plenty of room regardless it shouldn’t be an issue?
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Gotta earn your turns!
I would love to try it. Appeals to the masochist in me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
Regarding it being considered dangerous:-
I’m not sure how watching what an uphill slow moving tourer skinning up the side of the piste is doing (agreed if they are cutting across the middle of the piste then that would be different) is any different to watching what skiers downhill of you are doing. There are always obstacles, young unpredictable kids, beginners etc.
Surely as long as you give everyone plenty of room regardless it shouldn’t be an issue? |
I agree, I've skied past loads of people skinning uphill at the side of the piste and never considered them a danger. Just like folk standing at the side.
I guess it's a case of common sense though, if they were skinning up narrow cat tracks at at a busy time or cross crossing the piste it may be different.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It's all about the kit really.
If it allows middle aged men to wear lycra and arrive at club meets with a new bit of gear that cost more than anybody else's similar bit of gear then the sport will take off.
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I’m just back from a ski trip to Combloux and they have quite a few touring routes marked out away from the pistes / lifts and well signposted . Then you can go back down on blue or red pistes ( or off piste I guess if you want ) . The ascents take anything from 1 - 3 hours so they say but it seemed to take us quite a lot longer than they suggested ...., and you can link routes if you are really keen .Was ideal for me as I am a newish skier and not yet up to off piste shenanigans but really wanted to try it . I loved it was very relaxing and scenic swooshing uphill through the trees and it felt like good hot chocolate -with -cream burning off exercise as well . Cost about 40 Euros to hire all the stuff for the day. They also ran guided trips for touring beginners every Wed evening with guides to show you how to do it and use the skins etc and then a torchlit blue run descent think that was 25 euros with equipment so not too expensive. Will definitely do more
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You know it makes sense.
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@clairep, great stuff
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Good for Combloux - it sounds terrific. Resorts will need to keep exploring alternative activities and something like this, which a newish (or oldish....) skier can do in complete safety whilst burning off the hot chocolate can only be a good thing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Around here in Austria most people touring do have season passes. It'a more of keep fit thing for many, and some of the resorts create a path at the side of the piste. Also one resort has an agreement for night touring mainly up the side of the easy pistes but with forest cut throughs. the have Full Moon tours and it is a big feature of the mountain hut night life.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
if they were skinning up narrow cat tracks at at a busy time or cross crossing the piste it may be different.
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which they seem to do selectively
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@DB,
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If it's dangerous then maybe it's best to close all pistes that run over a public right of way.
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Now you're being stupid.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've ever only skinned up the pistes once when people were coming down and I definitely felt I was being buzzed, so much so that I too as others had mentioned had my poles out, it's not something I'd care to repeat, though you do see the occasional skier skinning up.
I do think that as @Scarpa, has mentioned that there is a potential for night time which would be pretty unique "adventure" for many. And if I was running a resort I'd create that experience with a restaurant open etc etc
The most obvious way to burn the hot chocolate off is cross country*, however, that requires new skills to be learnt, and for many Classic cross country is not that cool and skating whilst extremely cool is a pig to learn whereas the fundamentals of in resort ski touring, the skinning, require little technique and the decent is what people can do anyway and enjoy.
I'd hate to see what we call "slack country", where we go off the back for an adventurous ski down into a valley having taken the lifts up and then skin back up into resort become popular with a marked itinerary etc but that too would be logical next step, but that will raise issues of safety etc
*that's all I'm doing at the moment and love it as the ski touring is not that great
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@clairep,
Thanks for the write up. Didn't know that and I'm often in the area. Do the trails start from the bottom of the princess bubble towards Month Arbois or are they over the other side of Combloux?
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@Scarpa, yeah I’ve seen lots of posters around advertising touring nights
Like you say people do it to keep fit as downhill skiing just isn’t enough
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| cameronphillips2000 wrote: |
It's all about the kit really.
If it allows middle aged men to wear lycra and arrive at club meets with a new bit of gear that cost more than anybody else's similar bit of gear then the sport will take off. |
despite the sarcasm there a lot of truth in that...
Boys trip starts this week - I've one friend, a dedicated tourer, who is arriving early, and is intending to do some skinning on Saturday before the rest of us turn up. A dedicated hard-arsed pro who will leave the apartment at 6am to meet us "lifters" up top.
Another, the MAMIL - and for whom, only the most expensive of anything will do - is joining him on a 4 day tour of Mont Blanc later in the season, so is arriving with all the grear and literally no idea, in order to learn (to be fair, he's a fitness nut, who does Ironman's for fun, and see this as the next great adventure).
Les Arcs - you've been warned...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Another, the MAMIL - and for whom, only the most expensive of anything will do - is joining him on a 4 day tour of Mont Blanc later in the season, so is arriving with all the grear and literally no idea, in order to learn (to be fair, he's a fitness nut, who does Ironman's for fun, and see this as the next great adventure).
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To be fair he'll probably love it won't he? Skinning technique is easy to learn vs skiing and fitness counts for a lot. I doubt his gear will go to waste.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@DB,
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If it's dangerous then maybe it's best to close all pistes that run over a public right of way.
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Now you're being stupid. |
You don't know what you are talking about. Just because people have money doesn't mean they can take away other peoples rights.
e.g.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/jun/19/ruralaffairs.arts
Thankfully many resorts are coming up with solutions that work for both parties.
Maybe you should educate yourself before you start calling other people stupid.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Quote: |
if they were skinning up narrow cat tracks at at a busy time or cross crossing the piste it may be different.
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which they seem to do selectively |
I'm not a big fan of skining up the pistes and have only done it a couple of times to keep fit when other routes aren't possible either because of lack of snow or high avalanche danger.
Tourers cross pistes because so much has been pisted that there often isn't a way to the top without having to cross a piste.
Gemeindealpe in Lower Austria welcomes ski tourers to skin up the side of the piste during the day and has signs up for both alpine skiers and ski tourers. It works.
https://www.gemeindealpe.at/skitouren
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@DB, organised? Terrific.
Disorganised? I struggle to see how it's universally a Good Idea.
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I am new to all this and firmly fall into half the gear and no idea group at the moment. Skinning up at the side of the piste does not have any appeal but designated uphill track certinaĺy i would use that to get some practice in on.
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@DB, organised? Terrific.
Disorganised? I struggle to see how it's universally a Good Idea. |
For who? skiers who think because they have bought a lift ticket they own the mountain?
Because you buy a ski ticket I should forego my right to skin up the local highest mountain because someone built a ski resort there over rights of way?
Is your skiing that bad that you can't avoid an ascending ski-tourer or resist the urge to buzz him/her?
Skier, ski-tourer, mountain walker, snow shoer (I do all) we all have a right to be there. Live and let live.
To be honest most ski-tourers I know hate skining up the sides of pistes and only do it as a last resort because of the conditions.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Some of the resorts I ski in you see more people going up than coming down. As clarky999 says it's pretty big in Austria, probably because the resorts are more accessible to day trippers. Perhaps @under a new name's problem is he skis in the wrong country where people don't know how to do things properly 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DB wrote: |
| For who? skiers who think because they have bought a lift ticket they own the mountain? |
To be fair, there is only piste because people buy a lift pass.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| martinm wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| For who? skiers who think because they have bought a lift ticket they own the mountain? |
To be fair, there is only piste because people buy a lift pass. |
Sure and I don't mind paying a fair price for use of the infrastructure/piste (e.g. €5 parking fee). What I don't want is to be held ransom for is a full day ski ticket (that I won't fully use) or not be able to ascend the mountain. Some resorts offer a two hour ski-touring ticket for ski-tourers who want to tour in the morning and ski for a couple of ours in the afternoon. Even if I do have a ski ticket / season pass I don't want to be buzzed by descending alpine skiers either.
There are days when Ski-tourers wouldn't be able to
a) Ascend or descend without the piste (low snow conditions). There's no where else to go and so to improve or keep their fitness it's what they do.
b) Descend without the piste i.e. on these days they only go over the piste because someone put it there and they can't get to the top without a piste being in their way at some point.
Although if ski tourers decide to snowshoe when low snow conditions prevail (as I do) the "right to ascend issues" still remain without use of the piste.
If the ski-tourers, snow-shoers, winter walkers etc had kicked up a fuss when the piste was built (e.g. as the Ramblers do with walking routes in the UK) then maybe it wouldn't be there. Maybe us alpine skiers should be thankful for that and cut them a little bit of slack when snow conditions are scarce. Both sides should take care when ascending / descending.
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@martinm, that’s overly simplistic. People buy lift passes because companies make the passes (and the pistes and infrastructure) available to consumers. Sure the biz depends on demand, but it also creates the demand.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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When I do buy a ski ticket I always favour a skitouring friendly resort over a a skitourer resistant resort.
As was the case last Saturday …..
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=141282
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 23-01-19 12:57; edited 1 time in total
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| Quote: |
I was told by a local that if you are still climbing at the end of the day, when the lifts are closed and the patrollers are clearing the slopes ask if you have a pass, then say no, as otherwise they will try and insist you descend. If you don't have a pass and have ascended yourself they cannot say anything to you
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I am used to pisteurs doing a last "run down" every piste at the end of the day to ensure nobody is left - possibly injured or lost - before the piste bashers start. They can't "insist" on anything other than you must get off the piste. Whether you have a pass or not. They can be pretty firm - and in France there are local bye-laws to back them up - but there are always some muppets who think they know better.
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Funny how many ski resorts seem to be more insistent on sober ski tourers than skiers coming down from the Apres ski huts getting off the pistes after hours.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Inboard wrote: |
| @martinm, that’s overly simplistic. People buy lift passes because companies make the passes (and the pistes and infrastructure) available to consumers. Sure the biz depends on demand, but it also creates the demand. |
Yes, and the revenue pays for the snow to be pisted, so surely it's reasonable to give priority on the piste to those who've paid towards it's existence? There's plenty of un-pisted snow around as an alternative.
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Saw one today, skinning up my slalom track. The signs and nets stating that the piste was closed were just at the top.
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FAQ
Even in a big "commercial" resort like Alpe d'Huez it's possible to find quiet pistes or safe diversions off them and end up at the top of another one. I definitely try and avoid the buy pistes as although you can see 99% of people consciously turning away from you, there is the odd one 
I actually find the start of the season quite good as there are "unopened" pistes that have enough snow to skin on but not enough to ski down but still arrive at the top of an open piste. Never really had a problem with piste patrol, the army are regularly doing it in Alpe d'Huez anyway as they have a training centre there, mostly young recruits who are a bit wild on their well earned descent on what look like 20 year old skis. 
I was told by a local that if you are still climbing at the end of the day, when the lifts are closed and the patrollers are clearing the slopes ask if you have a pass, then say no, as otherwise they will try and insist you descend. If you don't have a pass and have ascended yourself they cannot say anything to you. I am not sure if he was trying to set me up for a stupid argument or there is truth in that 
Continuing to skin up after the lifts are closed, or even snowshoe up, is quite common, and there are many ways to descend without taking unnecessary risks. Some pistes are not bashed at all, some only occasionally and in any case even at my advanced age I find little difficulty in keeping well clear of large red tracked machines with flashing lights on, and yes I do know that sometimes they are using a winch wire from the top of the hill 