 Poster: A snowHead
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| JackSkier wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
@uktrailmonster,
Interesting. I haven't skied them but had in mind that the Atris would be a fun soft snow focused do-it-all ski but it sounds harder work than I thought.
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That's what I had in mind too, but they are nothing like the do-it-all skis that the Line Sir Francis Bacon or Volkl 90Eight are. If I had to ski the Atris every day they would be very limiting in anything other than boot deep powder. I could make them work in various conditions, but they were just making the job harder than necessary and certainly not as much fun. In the right conditions they were great, but a poor choice for an everyday ski. It was a good lesson for me to learn re. some of the marketing claims of wide skis like this! |
Can't say I agree with this at all having skiied pretty much only the Atris all season (out of 8 skis to choose from!), but I guess everyone has a different opinion on things. Out of interest, how heavy are you? Could it be the 189s are just too long? |
I'm 88 kg, so I don't think the length was a problem. I enjoyed skiing the Atris a lot, but they certainly wouldn't be my first choice on most days. They are night and day less agile than my other wide skis and nowhere near as versatile as my Volkl 90Eights. So I'm wondering what your 8 skis are and what conditions you actually ski in? For me the Atris is a fairly hard charging powder ski for more open spaces and pretty hard work for anything else. I can see their strengths i.e. stability and strong edge hold in variable conditions, but they come at a cost in terms of versatility and ease of use. I was having to really work these skis to get them to turn in tight spots and anything other than light powder and I was left thinking why bother when other skis can do the same job effortlessly?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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So what else have you skied in the width bracket? Cochise, Soul 7, BMX105, Cham 107, Director, Ranger/R108, Nomad, CT3.0, Wailer 105?
I'm struggling to believe that the Atris is harder work than all of the category but I could believe that the longest layup is a bit chargier than the average (same with a number of brands where they know the longest size is big guys or very good skiers)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
So what else have you skied in the width bracket? Cochise, Soul 7, BMX105, Cham 107, Director, Ranger/R108, Nomad, CT3.0, Wailer 105?
I'm struggling to believe that the Atris is harder work than all of the category but I could believe that the longest layup is a bit chargier than the average (same with a number of brands where they know the longest size is big guys or very good skiers) |
In that width bracket, only the Line Sir Francis Bacon (108 mm version at 184 cm length - longest available at that time) which I can assure you are far easier to turn and I used them as my everyday ski for about 3 or 4 seasons and still prefer them today in most conditions. I was very surprised about the Atris too. I was expecting a far easier going ride than they turned out to be. They can certainly charge and I ended up doing just that simply because it was the easiest way to get down the mountain on them! But I was expecting something a lot more playful than they are. Turning them involves considerable effort compared to other options. A good friend of mine was trying out the Soul 7 HD and Head Kore 105 and found both of those pretty easy to ski compared to his Atomic Automatics, which also turn very easily. I couldn't keep up with him through the trees on the Atris (he was putting in about 3 turns for every 1 of mine) but on my Bacons I could match him turn for turn. It was that much of a night and day difference, not something subtle. For me the Atris is a ski to break out on a fairly big powder day when skiing open faces. In those conditions they put a big smile on my face, but in the trees they just felt like clown shoes!
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To be fair the Soul 7 is a VERY flickable ski and the Kore 105 is simply amazing for a big boy manufacturer. Sounds like the Kore would have done the job better for you though I can heartily recommend the carbonlite Director in the same size for all round fun.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| DPS Lotus 124 Alchemist in a 185 will solve all your problems with the Atris 😉 |
If only I could demo DPS skis, they do look good. I think I will get a chance to demo the Blizzard Rustlers you mentioned earlier though, so that could be an option for next season.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| To be fair the Soul 7 is a VERY flickable ski and the Kore 105 is simply amazing for a big boy manufacturer. Sounds like the Kore would have done the job better for you though I can heartily recommend the carbonlite Director in the same size for all round fun. |
I think you're right about the Kore. My friend thought they were great and he looked at home on them instantly. He quite like the latest Soul 7 too, but thought the Kore had better high speed stability. Following him on the Atris through the trees in deep medium weight powder was seriously hard work and I'm the stronger skier! Oh well, I guess that's the problem with buying before trying! It doesn't always work out how you expect. I honestly thought the Atris would be along the same lines as these other options, but my pair certainly are not. In hindsight I would have got the 184 cm version, but the sizing guide clearly recommends 189 cm for my height/weight even as the "relaxed" skiing option.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| JackSkier wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
@uktrailmonster,
Interesting. I haven't skied them but had in mind that the Atris would be a fun soft snow focused do-it-all ski but it sounds harder work than I thought.
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That's what I had in mind too, but they are nothing like the do-it-all skis that the Line Sir Francis Bacon or Volkl 90Eight are. If I had to ski the Atris every day they would be very limiting in anything other than boot deep powder. I could make them work in various conditions, but they were just making the job harder than necessary and certainly not as much fun. In the right conditions they were great, but a poor choice for an everyday ski. It was a good lesson for me to learn re. some of the marketing claims of wide skis like this! |
Can't say I agree with this at all having skiied pretty much only the Atris all season (out of 8 skis to choose from!), but I guess everyone has a different opinion on things. Out of interest, how heavy are you? Could it be the 189s are just too long? |
I'm 88 kg, so I don't think the length was a problem. I enjoyed skiing the Atris a lot, but they certainly wouldn't be my first choice on most days. They are night and day less agile than my other wide skis and nowhere near as versatile as my Volkl 90Eights. So I'm wondering what your 8 skis are and what conditions you actually ski in? For me the Atris is a fairly hard charging powder ski for more open spaces and pretty hard work for anything else. I can see their strengths i.e. stability and strong edge hold in variable conditions, but they come at a cost in terms of versatility and ease of use. I was having to really work these skis to get them to turn in tight spots and anything other than light powder and I was left thinking why bother when other skis can do the same job effortlessly? |
Other skis we have in the same waist width are the Black Crows Corvus and Movement Trust, Atris are definitely less chargey than those two, and better in tight spaces.
Then narrower/ touring skis we have Scott Powdairs, and Fischer Hannibal's. Much prefer my Atris' in all conditions than these, the Powdairs are less stable and less nimble, and the Hannibal's are too light to be a fair comparison.
Out of ~60 days skiing this season in Europe (Chamonix, Alagna, Briancon area) there was probably 4 days when I wouldn't have minded something wider and the occasional tour when I wanted something lighter- although I like to see it as fitness training and suffer on the up for better performance going down.
I reckon the Atris sits on the charger side of more playful skis like your SFBs and Soul 7s but they're not an out and out charger like the Corvus, and I dont find mine a handful in pretty tight terrain (couloirs, trees etc). I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I guess everyone skis in different ways and likes different things.
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| JackSkier wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| JackSkier wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
@uktrailmonster,
Interesting. I haven't skied them but had in mind that the Atris would be a fun soft snow focused do-it-all ski but it sounds harder work than I thought.
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That's what I had in mind too, but they are nothing like the do-it-all skis that the Line Sir Francis Bacon or Volkl 90Eight are. If I had to ski the Atris every day they would be very limiting in anything other than boot deep powder. I could make them work in various conditions, but they were just making the job harder than necessary and certainly not as much fun. In the right conditions they were great, but a poor choice for an everyday ski. It was a good lesson for me to learn re. some of the marketing claims of wide skis like this! |
Can't say I agree with this at all having skiied pretty much only the Atris all season (out of 8 skis to choose from!), but I guess everyone has a different opinion on things. Out of interest, how heavy are you? Could it be the 189s are just too long? |
I'm 88 kg, so I don't think the length was a problem. I enjoyed skiing the Atris a lot, but they certainly wouldn't be my first choice on most days. They are night and day less agile than my other wide skis and nowhere near as versatile as my Volkl 90Eights. So I'm wondering what your 8 skis are and what conditions you actually ski in? For me the Atris is a fairly hard charging powder ski for more open spaces and pretty hard work for anything else. I can see their strengths i.e. stability and strong edge hold in variable conditions, but they come at a cost in terms of versatility and ease of use. I was having to really work these skis to get them to turn in tight spots and anything other than light powder and I was left thinking why bother when other skis can do the same job effortlessly? |
Other skis we have in the same waist width are the Black Crows Corvus and Movement Trust, Atris are definitely less chargey than those two, and better in tight spaces.
Then narrower/ touring skis we have Scott Powdairs, and Fischer Hannibal's. Much prefer my Atris' in all conditions than these, the Powdairs are less stable and less nimble, and the Hannibal's are too light to be a fair comparison.
Out of ~60 days skiing this season in Europe (Chamonix, Alagna, Briancon area) there was probably 4 days when I wouldn't have minded something wider and the occasional tour when I wanted something lighter- although I like to see it as fitness training and suffer on the up for better performance going down.
I reckon the Atris sits on the charger side of more playful skis like your SFBs and Soul 7s but they're not an out and out charger like the Corvus, and I dont find mine a handful in pretty tight terrain (couloirs, trees etc). I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I guess everyone skis in different ways and likes different things. |
I can see we have very different tastes in skis, so it's not really a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. SFBs are WAYYYYY more playful than the Atris and I can only imagine how hard work the Corvus is to turn in direct comparison. It's all relative. I simply don't like directional chargers for an everyday ski and the Atris is not far enough away from that mould as I expected. They have their place in my quiver, but certainly not as an everyday choice.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
My last three skis have been centre-mounted bi-directional twin tip skis, albeit narrower than what you're looking at.
They do everything.
I wouldn't go back. |
Let's just say I'm now back to looking at the current narrower Line Bacons. At 104 mm underfoot, they sound ideal for a very playful all-mountain ski. I don't ski switch, but I love how these centre mounted skis perform going forwards! |
Given your experience on the 98 Volkls have a different look at the 108 volkl as well, as the rocker is different to the 98s and essentially the 108has negative camber making them super easy to pivot , slash etc as well as carve. I have the BMT 109 which is the same shape and is great everywhere , especially in tight spots, trees, needs to be bossed in crud (get on the tips to avoid deflection -but the 108 is a heavier construction). The only downside is that is powder , like a lot of reverse camber skis , there is no "pop" or rebound as you bounce around your turn - its still dead easy to turn but different face shots!
I have also had a really good season on my new Head Kore 105s -but only after I took a "gummi" to the tails to allow them to release at the end of the turn more easily rather than forcing me to fully finish it - perhaps you should try that with the Atris ?
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| To be fair the Soul 7 is a VERY flickable ski and the Kore 105 is simply amazing for a big boy manufacturer. Sounds like the Kore would have done the job better for you though I can heartily recommend the carbonlite Director in the same size for all round fun. |
I think you're right about the Kore. My friend thought they were great and he looked at home on them instantly. He quite like the latest Soul 7 too, but thought the Kore had better high speed stability. Following him on the Atris through the trees in deep medium weight powder was seriously hard work and I'm the stronger skier! |
I really like the Kore 105, but personally I definitely find the Atris more playful and less chargey than the Kore.
I have to say I'm surprised by your opinion, as IME the Atris is very much at the playful end of that category. But I guess perception of what playful is depends on what you compare them too, and I wonder if your perception is a little skewed due to your time on the SFBs? They certainly are at the EXTREME playful end of the spectrum...
I also definitely wouldn't look at the Völkl 108 if the Atris was too much ski - Soul 7 should be much more along the right lines.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Still have no idea what the axis of playful-directional is 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@under a new name, does the ski need to go forwards, on edge and usually fast for rewarding performance (probably traditional works as well as directional, though there are plenty of modern skis that fit that bill too) or is it equally fun when being surf about sideways, pivoted, slashing the tails around, etc.
The feeling of either being on rail tracks and able to charge/smash through everything vs the feeling of being a dancer and using terrain features rather than demolishing them.
Both fun at the right time
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@clarky999, so “directionality” doesn’t really, in an Americanism for twin tipped, come into it?
All about the skillz, to my mind...
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You know it makes sense.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| To be fair the Soul 7 is a VERY flickable ski and the Kore 105 is simply amazing for a big boy manufacturer. Sounds like the Kore would have done the job better for you though I can heartily recommend the carbonlite Director in the same size for all round fun. |
I think you're right about the Kore. My friend thought they were great and he looked at home on them instantly. He quite like the latest Soul 7 too, but thought the Kore had better high speed stability. Following him on the Atris through the trees in deep medium weight powder was seriously hard work and I'm the stronger skier! |
I really like the Kore 105, but personally I definitely find the Atris more playful and less chargey than the Kore.
I have to say I'm surprised by your opinion, as IME the Atris is very much at the playful end of that category. But I guess perception of what playful is depends on what you compare them too, and I wonder if your perception is a little skewed due to your time on the SFBs? They certainly are at the EXTREME playful end of the spectrum...
I also definitely wouldn't look at the Völkl 108 if the Atris was too much ski - Soul 7 should be much more along the right lines. |
Yeah - I guess I would probably agree with that other than if the OP loves the construction of the 98 then how about the same build in 108 but reverse camber?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| under a new name wrote: |
@clarky999, so “directionality” doesn’t really, in an Americanism for twin tipped, come into it?
All about the skillz, to my mind... |
"Directional"means long radius in my understanding -and therefore more input to turn shorter.
"Playful"means short radius and gets squirrelly if you aren't turning it
But rather than theorising ,I would love to hear a view from classic alpine skier on an outing on one of the class leading skis like the Rossi Soul 7 or the DPS wailer 112 - that you think its all bollax or you think its amazeballs!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
| bi-directional twin tip skis |
You ski backwards as well 😇 |
😁
When I'm teaching
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
My last three skis have been centre-mounted bi-directional twin tip skis, albeit narrower than what you're looking at.
They do everything.
I wouldn't go back. |
Let's just say I'm now back to looking at the current narrower Line Bacons. At 104 mm underfoot, they sound ideal for a very playful all-mountain ski. I don't ski switch, but I love how these centre mounted skis perform going forwards! |
Yep.
Pivotting is so much more balanced and easier on a centre mounted ski.
And touring feels more like walking, especially when on steeper terrain. And kickturning.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My most agile and playful ski is the Atomic Bent Chetler which is a bit fatter than most discussed here but with a lot of rocker and a fairly centrally mounted freeride/touring binding. I demo'd the DPS Wailer too and although good I rated it just behind the Bents.
Here is my mate being playful on his Atris's
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
I have to say I'm surprised by your opinion, as IME the Atris is very much at the playful end of that category. But I guess perception of what playful is depends on what you compare them too, and I wonder if your perception is a little skewed due to your time on the SFBs? They certainly are at the EXTREME playful end of the spectrum...
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It's not just the SFB, my Volkl 90Eights are also far more "playful" despite a more traditional mount point, although they are of course 10 mm narrower. I was very surprised too that the Atris was so reluctant to turn and dance. I've also previously had seasons on stiff directional skis like Head Monsters without any rocker at all and found them easier to live with on a daily basis. It's not like the Atris feel super stiff either. They just seem to resist changing direction and put a lot more load through my feet. Only in light deep powder at reasonable speed do they start to make sense. If it wasn't for a couple of great powder days I really enjoyed on the Atris I'd be putting them up for sale right now.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@mishmash,
| Quote: |
"Directional"means long radius in my understanding -and therefore more input to turn shorter.
"Playful"means short radius and gets squirrelly if you aren't turning it
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It's more complicated than that and as my post was suggesting it can be different "in" snow and "on" snow.
Skis with very straight sidecut (long radius) but lots of rocker can be VERY nimble and flickable, driftable in soft snow. Also the reverse camber makes them turn when you tip them "in"snow (the shape of the base creates the shape rather than the shaepe of the edge). The same ski can be very much less playful "on" snow - yes you can pivot them but you have grab from the width to manage and carving is tricky with long radius and short running length (plus width/castor angle).
Funnily enough my R108s are longer radius (28m) than my Redeemers but they are MUCH easier to ski "on" snow because they have longer running length and are not as wide so I can tip them to high edge angle and bend them into a tighter radius. However, the flat tail and generally lower rocker means that they are much more directional "in" snow than the Redeemers.
I find it all quite interesting - modern ski designers have come up with many more degrees of freedom in creating ski shapes. they all have their merits but it makes for increasingly specialised skis in my view.
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@mishmash, from what I read, the 'Merkins, who just seem to love coming up with this stuff, don't mean what you mean. I could easily be wrong.
My old FIS SLs were extremely "playful" in that they were delighted to switch edge-to-edge, but also immensely "directional" in that they wouldn't deviate from that edge until told to...
Definitions, eh?
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| mishmash wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
@clarky999, so “directionality” doesn’t really, in an Americanism for twin tipped, come into it?
All about the skillz, to my mind... |
"Directional"means long radius in my understanding -and therefore more input to turn shorter.
"Playful"means short radius and gets squirrelly if you aren't turning it
But rather than theorising ,I would love to hear a view from classic alpine skier on an outing on one of the class leading skis like the Rossi Soul 7 or the DPS wailer 112 - that you think its all bollax or you think its amazeballs! |
My latest experience with the Atris vs Line SFB was a real eye-opener in just how different modern skis can be. I was honestly expecting the Atris to ski along the same lines as the SFB, except with more stability at speed and a bit less agile. But the difference in handling was truly astonishing. The only thing they have in common is the 108 mm waist. Literally everything else felt totally different. Never before have I experienced such a night and day difference in two pairs of skis of the same width.
So my take is that twin tipped park inspired all-mountain skis are totally different from big-mountain "playful" skis. These two examples are for sure!
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| Quote: |
My old FIS SLs were extremely "playful" in that they were delighted to switch edge-to-edge, but also immensely "directional" in that they wouldn't deviate from that edge until told to...
Definitions, eh?
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Yep - I also skied a couple of mainly piste days on my old stormriders - stiff, no rocker, 18m radius - they were really playful edge to edge whether carving or pivoting, could deliver some really tight carves with a lot of angulation and certainly would hold a direction when they were set at whatever speed you wanted. Not as easy to pivot and drift in deep snow though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@mishmash, from what I read, the 'Merkins, who just seem to love coming up with this stuff, don't mean what you mean. I could easily be wrong.
My old FIS SLs were extremely "playful" in that they were delighted to switch edge-to-edge, but also immensely "directional" in that they wouldn't deviate from that edge until told to...
Definitions, eh? |
In this case "playful" means the ability to carve, slarve, pivot or skid sideways on demand in a wide range of turn shapes with little effort. Line SFBs are amazing in this respect, but there is a trade off in high speed stability and ultimate edge hold as you may expect.
By "directional" I mean a more locked in ski that holds a solid edge, but doesn't enjoy going sideways or slarving on demand. Such skis usually have a limited range of turn shapes that they will readily perform and require much more effort to operate outside their intended range.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
So I was wondering how skis like the Line Bacon, K2 Marksman compare against more "serious" but still relatively playful skis like the Black Crows Atris and Volkl 100Eight? I think it's a given that the latter type of ski is going to be more stable at speed and hold an edge better on piste or any hard snow, but are they going to be as much fun and easy going when skiing more moderate slopes in soft conditions, bumps and trees etc? I'm starting to think that the more all mountain orientated jib skis are a good choice for an everyday fun soft snow ski. Or are skis like the latest BC Atris just better at everything except in the Park? For clarity, what I definitely don't want is a super stiff directional charging machine like the Head Monster 108 or a flippy-floppy noodle of a park ski. So it's more a question of where do the stiffer, more serious jib skis meet with the new generation of lighter, rockered directional skis? |
Going back to my original pondering as above before I tried the Atris. The answer is that these two types of ski are still clearly miles apart in handling characteristics and personally I prefer the Line Bacons for most days without going anywhere near the park.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Mike Pow wrote: |
My last three skis have been centre-mounted bi-directional twin tip skis, albeit narrower than what you're looking at.
They do everything.
I wouldn't go back. |
Let's just say I'm now back to looking at the current narrower Line Bacons. At 104 mm underfoot, they sound ideal for a very playful all-mountain ski. I don't ski switch, but I love how these centre mounted skis perform going forwards! |
Yep.
Pivotting is so much more balanced and easier on a centre mounted ski.
And touring feels more like walking, especially when on steeper terrain. And kickturning. |
I was definitely sold on near centre mounting with the SFB right from the start, which is why I thought the Atris would suit me too. The Atris is mounted further back than the SFB, but still relatively forward mounted for its genre. But regardless, pivoting requires a whole lot more effort on the Atris vs SFB.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@uktrailmonster, I think your definition of "directional" is your very own. But, hey,
Reviews on the NA sites seem to describe directional as being only able to go forwards (one directional) whereas non-directional = twin tips = forwards and backwards (two directions). Makes little sense to me.
As I say, I could be completely wrong.
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| under a new name wrote: |
@uktrailmonster, I think your definition of "directional" is your very own. But, hey,
Reviews on the NA sites seem to describe directional as being only able to go forwards (one directional) whereas non-directional = twin tips = forwards and backwards (two directions). Makes little sense to me.
As I say, I could be completely wrong. |
I just wanted to clarify what I actually meant by "directional" and "playful" in my thread title. I agree with your more general "industry" definition, but twin-tipped skis tend to sit more on the playful end of the spectrum anyway as they need to pivot easily in order to ski switch and perform other tricks. Directional skis (i.e. flat tailed) often feel more locked-in and less playful too, but I'm sure there are exceptions.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
I have to say I'm surprised by your opinion, as IME the Atris is very much at the playful end of that category. But I guess perception of what playful is depends on what you compare them too, and I wonder if your perception is a little skewed due to your time on the SFBs? They certainly are at the EXTREME playful end of the spectrum...
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It's not just the SFB, my Volkl 90Eights are also far more "playful" despite a more traditional mount point, although they are of course 10 mm narrower. I was very surprised too that the Atris was so reluctant to turn and dance. I've also previously had seasons on stiff directional skis like Head Monsters without any rocker at all and found them easier to live with on a daily basis. It's not like the Atris feel super stiff either. They just seem to resist changing direction and put a lot more load through my feet. Only in light deep powder at reasonable speed do they start to make sense. If it wasn't for a couple of great powder days I really enjoyed on the Atris I'd be putting them up for sale right now. |
This makes me wonder if your Atris's had a bad tune or concave base? As there's no way that design should - or in my experience is - harder to ski than the Monsters! They literally ARE in the park/freesytle inspired AM ski category you mention later...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| jedster wrote: |
@mishmash,
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"Directional"means long radius in my understanding -and therefore more input to turn shorter.
"Playful"means short radius and gets squirrelly if you aren't turning it
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It's more complicated than that and as my post was suggesting it can be different "in" snow and "on" snow.
Skis with very straight sidecut (long radius) but lots of rocker can be VERY nimble and flickable, driftable in soft snow. Also the reverse camber makes them turn when you tip them "in"snow (the shape of the base creates the shape rather than the shaepe of the edge). The same ski can be very much less playful "on" snow - yes you can pivot them but you have grab from the width to manage and carving is tricky with long radius and short running length (plus width/castor angle).
Funnily enough my R108s are longer radius (28m) than my Redeemers but they are MUCH easier to ski "on" snow because they have longer running length and are not as wide so I can tip them to high edge angle and bend them into a tighter radius. However, the flat tail and generally lower rocker means that they are much more directional "in" snow than the Redeemers.
I find it all quite interesting - modern ski designers have come up with many more degrees of freedom in creating ski shapes. they all have their merits but it makes for increasingly specialised skis in my view. |
This
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| under a new name wrote: |
@mishmash, from what I read, the 'Merkins, who just seem to love coming up with this stuff, don't mean what you mean. I could easily be wrong.
My old FIS SLs were extremely "playful" in that they were delighted to switch edge-to-edge, but also immensely "directional" in that they wouldn't deviate from that edge until told to...
Definitions, eh? |
You same something a bit contradictory later (re. twenties etc) but what you say here is spot on. All about STYLE. Both styles lotsa fun in different ways at different times. Edge and carve vs base and slarve.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| jedster wrote: |
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My old FIS SLs were extremely "playful" in that they were delighted to switch edge-to-edge, but also immensely "directional" in that they wouldn't deviate from that edge until told to...
Definitions, eh?
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Yep - I also skied a couple of mainly piste days on my old stormriders - stiff, no rocker, 18m radius - they were really playful edge to edge whether carving or pivoting, could deliver some really tight carves with a lot of angulation and certainly would hold a direction when they were set at whatever speed you wanted. Not as easy to pivot and drift in deep snow though. |
This too. Again, STYLE. The most important thing in skiing.
And before someone says, no: fun comes in different styles too. Just depends which you prefer.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@clarky999, style is function, function is style?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
This makes me wonder if your Atris's had a bad tune or concave base? As there's no way that design should - or in my experience is - harder to ski than the Monsters! They literally ARE in the park/freesytle inspired AM ski category you mention later... |
I'd be surprised if it was the tune as they were brand new factory fresh and they felt fine on the freshly groomed runs carving out medium and large radius turns. Maybe de-tuning the tails might have helped a little, but I've never had to resort to that before on any other rockered skis. Having read all the reviews, they were not what I was expecting at all. I thought they would be very easy to slarve around at low speeds, but they demanded a lot more effort than I was expecting. At higher speeds in the open they were a lot better but not really what I was looking for overall. My wife even noticed how much harder I was having to work on them, especially in tight trees and chutes. When I reverted back to my Line Bacons they felt amazing and only at very high speed did they feel at a disadvantage. My Volkl 90Eights too felt much more nimble and easier to slarve and slash around on - which you wouldn't expect at all given their design.
I haven't given up on the Atris yet, but I won't be buying another pair of BC skis without trying them first!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
@clarky999, style is function, function is style?
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To a large extent but you can elect to ski the same slope in different ways or styles and those choices aren't necessarily better or worse just different. Slow line fast vs fast line slow is just one of those choices.
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| jedster wrote: |
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@clarky999, style is function, function is style?
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To a large extent but you can elect to ski the same slope in different ways or styles and those choices aren't necessarily better or worse just different. Slow line fast vs fast line slow is just one of those choices. |
Quite right and I like to mix it up all the time. I expected the Atris to be quite versatile, but found them a bit limiting in practice. Charging down everything seemed to be the best option on them, but not what I would call the most fun in most cases. I certainly wouldn't want them as my everyday ski.
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| jedster wrote: |
| Funnily enough my R108s are longer radius (28m) than my Redeemers but they are MUCH easier to ski "on" snow because they have longer running length and are not as wide so I can tip them to high edge angle and bend them into a tighter radius. However, the flat tail and generally lower rocker means that they are much more directional "in" snow than the Redeemers. |
Interesting. I do find the R018CL easy to ski on piste...as long as you're just happy drifting around and not trying to put in some proper carved turns. In the latter case, they're only ok when the snow softens, but there's no way to trust them for a faster turn on harder snow, let alone ice. I would much rather trust my old DPS 112 for that.
Don't get me wrong - I love my R108CLs and I skied them offpiste everywhere: La Grave, Lofoten, etc. But on the majority of European pistes I'll be skidding the majority of my turns, when I'm on them. (I know I shouldn't be on R108CLs on piste, that's why I put up other threads asking for suggestions).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Interesting thread
I was considering some BC skis but more from their resort range either the Orb or the Vertis.
Im a bit stuck as don't want to take a chance and really want a GP all Mountain Ski which will be enjoyable in fresh snow and powder, for playing down the side and getting a bit more confidence off piste.
Initially I thought the Vertis at 85mm though the 0rb at 91mm may be more flexible though is has more metal and maybe more directional. I'm 6ft tall 90kg and a solid intermediate. If anyone has any experiences og these BC skis Id love to hear from you..
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@marksovereign, I’m 85-90kg, fairly experienced (ski 30-40 days most seasons, mainly off-piste and touring); I have BC Camox Freebird for touring and Navis (standard, non-Freebird) for off-the-lifts. I’ve skied the standard Camox in a resort, on and off piste, and found them fab and they may be what you’re after. I don’t notice them being particularly wide at 98mm, they’re fast edge to edge and great fun on hard pack and soft snow alike.
A weekend trip to St Anton would let you try much of the BC range if you hire from Jennewein. I’m sure similar hire/ try options in Chamonix but don’t know which shops. BC could give you advice, their marketing team are very responsive and helpful.
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