 Poster: A snowHead
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Opps thought you meant skiing on the outside edge..!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ssh, whenever I've tried outside edge skiing I've always found that pushing my weight forwards into the fall line and on to the end of the turn helps with the tendency to lean my weight into the hill as it's just somewhere to consciously and actively put the weight. It also helps with the tendency of my weight to fall back on the tails when I'm on the outside edge. I find it easiest to concentrate on doing this right one leg at a time ie with one ski off.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ssh wrote: |
| hibernia, I used to be a good skier! |
And now hopefully you are even a better one 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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hibernia, a bit of background that may help you understand my perspective: this season is my 35th skiing. I live in Colorado, and have skied 30+ days the past three seasons. Before that, I was more a "fair weather" skier, spending about 10 days per season on snow. As a kid, I skied over 100 days/season my first few years, and raced in high school. I've been a student of skiing since 1971, and have refocused on the teaching of it since October 2003. I say all of that to say this: skiing has changed. Especially with those great carving skis that you have! You can use your older technique to ski them and they will feel substantially better than anything you've ever skied...
...but not nearly as nice as they will if you learn how to use them best! 
You can move from edge to edge of a modern ski by tipping it. You do not need to set the edges and use the rebound to get to the new edges. You can arc turns of quite short radius simply by riding the edges and changing the angle of the ski to the snow. All movements in modern skiing are progressive: we move from edge to edge like a pendulum swings and not by sudden changes. We eliminate those sudden movements and thus reduce our energy usage dramatically--enabling us to ski longer during the day, more difficult terrain, and so on. It really is a different sport IMHO.
FWIW, I've spent the past three years trying to stop the edge set-redirectd sequence. I'm still trying to get extraneous movements out of my hands (they still brush the invisible poles out of my way!).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges, if I say "angulation", does anything come to mind that would help you with that?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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hibernia, I certainly understand how it must be with one or two weeks per year. And, on those older skis, that technique would work very well (and probably be your best option!). On the newer skis, it won't be. I'm sure that there are a number of video options for you, and I don't know all of those available in Europe. I'll rely on others to make those recommendations. Perhaps, if I'm very lucky, I'll get to meet you at the EoSB '07 and I can show you what I mean...
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 14-02-06 0:22; edited 1 time in total
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ssh, I know we've done the carving skis/techniques stuff time and time again here, and I buy what you're saying for wide open spaces and pistes etc.. But how have modern skis changed how you tackle cruddy narrow slopes of 30+ degrees (which is the kind of skiing I enjoy - even if I'm not particularly expert at it)? Surely here it's short swings, jumps, unweighting and all the rest of that good old-fashined stuff! (Unless of course you're a complete lunatic and bomb down everything at Mach 6).
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ssh, In a bid to understand this, I have, as you hinted, started a separate thread.
the EOSB 07 that's a good idea and I may be able to go there, will have to check the dates when announced. Thanks again for your help!.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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GrahamN, FWIW, I just got done skiing mostly that kind of terrain at Alta/Snowbird during the ESA. I didn't bomb it at Mach 6 (OK, at least not very often!). But, it has changed dramatically. I used no vertical up-and-down motion, no edge sets. While there was some flex/extend movement (of course!), it was largely to keep my upper body on a straight-line path down the mountain while my legs did all the work underneath. In a retraction turn, I'd turn my legs into the fall line while pulling my feet up, then extend into the bottom of the turn. Or, in a different type of turn, I would maintain my ankle flex, open my knee joint (moving my hips forward), and open my downhill/new inside thigh/femur down the hill to start the turn.
None of these were moves that I would have used even 5 years ago (but, 5 years ago I was behind the times...).
In other words, I think that technique for all terrain has changed and become more subtle.
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ssh, not sure what you mean, I know I should be moving my hips inside as I start the turn but on the outside edge it isn't till I'm coming out of the fall line that I get any edge or angulation and it's if I can get the weight forwards that I can get the angulation (visualising being one-legged helps). I'm certainly not doing a carved initiation on the outside edge, more of a ski flattening and drifting towards the fall line.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ssh, it's interesting you mentioning the retraction turn stuff as a new thing. This was basically the technique I was introduced to in my first ever mogul lesson, about 10 years ago, by a very old-school instructor! It works very well, whenever I can remember to do it that way. I still remain to be convinced though that there is any quicker way of getting around a corner than a smooth pivot with skis flat on the snow.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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GrahamN, I didn't mean to suggest that retraction turns are a "new thing". They're certainly not! But, it is new for many folks as a turn to use as a "bulletproof" turn on terrain that isn't bumped; terrain where we pull up and push down when we're not following snow contours. Sorry for the confusion...
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 14-02-06 0:52; edited 1 time in total
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slikedges, do you believe me when I say that you can get edge angles on your new edges before the fall line on your new inside ski (so you're on the inside edge of the inside ski only)? If so, what must you do to get there?
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You know it makes sense.
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ssh, get the hips forward and inside 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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slikedges, yep. The key is inside. Angulated. Upper body more upright, legs more angled. It feels uncomfortable because there's no foot to fall onto if the ski lets go. So, you don't want to really commit to that ski edge. You hedge your bets by trying to stay more balanced between your feet than you are on that ski. As a result, you don't get sufficiently balanced over that ski edge to get it to arc well. Commit to that edge and feel the difference. Worth playing with!
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Poster: A snowHead
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ssh, I'm steadily building a list of stuff to concentrate my mind on those greens! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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slikedges, yeah, baby! I have a new focus when I'm skiing: let no terrain go to waste. I've learned so much skiing terrain that is supposedly below my ability. And it's made all of my skiing better as a result.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have nothing to add - ssh, has pretty much said it all.
GrahamN, It seems unlikely that you were taught retraction turns for moguls - compression turns would have been far more likely (and still used today). I do disagree about off piste crud and so on. good modern technique works just as well on that as anything else ....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski You may well be right that it started out as a compression turn, but it seemed pretty obvious to change it (when coordination allowed) very soon after to what, after checking around a bit, seems to be called "Avalement". Is this the same thing as ssh is talking about?
| ssh wrote: |
| While there was some flex/extend movement (of course!), it was largely to keep my upper body on a straight-line path down the mountain while my legs did all the work underneath |
sounds just like what it feels like on the rare occasions when I get into the rhythm and it all clicks - retract the legs slighly on the upside of the "bump" (or rise in the terrain), let the skis turn while the edges are released (I guess we're no longer allowed to use the word "unweighted" ), then extend into the subsequent trough and use a bit of pressure for speed control. Or if it's going really well the turn happens all on the upside of the "bump". Tune to taste down pretty much any heavily-skied unpisted terrain (i.e. the majority of what I've seen in the Alps). I'm not up to doing this true "zipper-line", but can normally do it about 1 bump/lump/divot wide. So I still don't get how the modern gear/orthodoxy changes things to the "retraction turn". What am I missing here?
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GrahamN, Avalement was the folding of the legs underneath the body. With a compression turn you do this and then extend the legs (while keeping the head still) into the trough (or imagined one), with a slightly rotary movement, not unlike kicking a football. Retraction was a positive retraction (snatching up) of the legs (rather than the legs being pressed up) followed by a strong outward and round push. Your head did not necessarily have to stay level, and it's a very strong but tiring turn to use in crud. By golly - all this is bringing back some odd memories!!
I would say, however, that the best advice I've ever been given in bumps is to more or less ignore any flexion (your legs will automatically flex to take in the bump if they're relaxed), and to concentrate on pushing your toes into the trough. At the end of the extension of your legs your skis will naturally find their edge.
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FAQ
