 Poster: A snowHead
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| T_Hee wrote: |
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Can you really be fully 'situation aware' as all snow users are legally obliged to be and listen/think/react to this device simultaneously - i think not. As i haven't used this device, perhaps i should keep an open mind but there again i see phone users walk across roads without even looking - hmm... am i over reacting? |
Drivers also need to be fully situation aware. The parallel with phone use is interesting as it has I believe been proven that phone use in cars, including hands free, causes a significant deterioration in awareness. On the other hand, there doesn't appear to be similar evidence around listening to other inputs, e.g. music, radio 4, learn French tapes etc.
My guess is that being given advice about how you're skiing while you are skiing would have a similar effect as receiving advice on driving while driving; if anything it would sharpen awareness.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Dr John, I'm mostly on your page about this. Humans are equipped with all the essential sensors to ski well. What we lack sometimes is insufficient physical and psychological 'gusto' to implement positive movement. It is right that people with low levels of 'gusto' for want of a better word, keep safe off demanding situations. I can't see how this device would improve those aspects over an instructor.
Clearly though, at this moment any speculation could be wildly of the mark. I assume the makers will, without a doubt, set clear boundary's where and under what circumstances they're device is to be used - of course, 'some' users, may ( again, my speculation only) soon afterwards disregard such advice at their risk and probably to other's as well.
As for remarks from others about developments, sure, but they have to be market led , delays due to project 'specification creep' do nobody any good.
Nay sayer's of technological advances have always existed - surely sensible adoption of technology, mostly yield's positive outcomes.
Not sure what the Instructor associations and 'legals' are going to think about this technology. Only time will tell...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Richard_Sideways,
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Dr John wrote:
or just, perhaps, you know, go skiing.
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Richard wrote:
You're, surely, joking! I've never met a skier who wouldn't give their good right ski pole to prove - in numbers - that they are categorically better than the next guy.
[quote]
WOW !, for me, skiing is an expression of joyful fluid movement sensation, directed (but under my control) by the ever changing terrain features / patterns... surely your not 100% serious are you?, but if you are...and you have every right to be who you wan't, shouldn't you take up racing then... 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Richard_Sideways,
I fear 'thread' creep is happening here...
nothing personal...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@T_Hee, a successful ski run should be measured by smiles, not stats.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Richard_Sideways, that’s academic because I’m the best skier on the mountain.
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@SnoodlesMcFlude, Finally! Perhaps now the rest can stop competing for the title.
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@Dr John, I'm with you fully - well, almost. In some situations, i might ask an Instructor for advice / help.
Yes, it's all about smiles...never had a bad holiday when pure free skiing EVER. Only when i take group lessons does the enjoyment decrease, which is probably due to not being able to initially concur / achieve the task that well and , i have to face it, i'm impatient and i want to get on with it now.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@snowglider, we're offering Carv right now at a pre-launch price of £199 on www.getcarv.com (20% off normal price of £249). If you buy two there's a further 10% off although our pre-xmas December shipment is almost sold out so I'd recommend acting now 
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| dp wrote: |
I just saw this and I really like the concept. But my cynicism lies in:
1) Can I ski and then look back at the data in my phone and get post-session advice from the phone, rather than taking real-time advice from headphones? I cannot stand having headphones in unless at rest, they take away a lot of spatial awareness and I don't like it - even when walking or running.
2) Can the insole thing work with a custom footbed? I think most of us rely on custom footbeds for our boots and for me, correct fitting boot with good footbed will come way higher in the priority list than the interactive ski coach app. |
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good questions dp!
#1 Yes, Carv gives basic audio feedback as you ski and detailed analysis at the end of your run / day. You can choose to simply look at the detailed analysis we've broken down into Balance, Edging, Rotary and Pressure instead of the real-time audio feedback.
#2 Carv fits in-between your liner and bootboard so you can wear it with your custom footbed no problem. We liken Carv to the equivalent of wearing a thicker sock.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| T_Hee wrote: |
This is an area where AI could start playing a role - for good and bad. Lets just say when it starts giving you advice, and then starts modifying that advice upon your effort / advance / degradation etc to the previous advice, isn't that an area where Ski Instructor associations start 'believing' they're losing custom and express safety concerns on skier concentration / awareness issues.
An instructor may talk to you via a headphones setup, but that's still somebody with another pair of eye's watching out for your well being, keeping you (hopefully) on safe runs, directing your path and avoiding unnecessary risks, building confidence etc. etc. If you're listening and taking advice from this device - is that really the right advice in your present situation?
Can you really be fully 'situation aware' as all snow users are legally obliged to be and listen/think/react to this device simultaneously - i think not. As i haven't used this device, perhaps i should keep an open mind but there again i see phone users walk across roads without even looking - hmm... am i over reacting? |
Hi T_Hee! An interesting question and one we've certainly fielded before from the ski community including athletes and instructors so you're not alone in thinking this. The safety of our customers as well as others on the mountain is paramount to us. Carv has been built with safety in mind so we keep real-time audio feedback to an absolute minimum whilst you ski - e.g. on the edge angle challenge we'll give you your edge angle only on every turn and then a score at the end of the drill when we recognise you're stationary. We'll then give you a richer dataset of visual and audio feedback when you've stopped just like a ski instructor would.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 31-10-17 23:04; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
*technically* not AI, but an expert system - minor point but y'know.
It'd be interesting to expand the system with additional biometric sensors for heart rate, O2 etc like you'd get through fitbit etc. Assuming you're pulling accelerometer, inclinometer metrics through either the device or through the phone itself - relative speed through gps? Adding a vibration or torsion sensor to the ski itself could yield some interesting results relating to being able to offer different advice for detecting the surface conditions directly... If that took off you could start licensing the product to manufacturers for boots and skis to embed the sensors directly into their products... SmartSki SmartBoot ranges... etc. |
Hi Richard_Sideways,
we're looking into what integrations with other devices and leading sports apps would be a great addition to Carv on top of the 100+ sensors we already use. We're also in discussions with all major boot manufacturers as they're obviously very interested in the possibilities Carv presents but that's a little further down the line. For this season and next, we're concentrating on bringing our customers detailed and accurate technique analysis and audio coaching. That's our biggest priority!
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 31-10-17 23:05; edited 2 times in total
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| Dr John wrote: |
| or just, perhaps, you know, go skiing. |
You're, surely, joking! I've never met a skier who wouldn't give their good right ski pole to prove - in numbers - that they are categorically better than the next guy. |
You bet! With Carv's Ski IQ, we can finally answer that age old question and settle things once and for all
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You know it makes sense.
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@RossCarvDigitalSkiCoach, as long as all possible safety scenarios as voiced by respected on-snow professionals are met and guaranteed along with mountain insurance companies, i can't and wouldn't object and i'd be interested in a test. I hope the program either would not function outside of safe protocols or within itself, it would register / record the user deliberately defied instructions. The former IMO, is mandatory.
It wouldn't take much of a legal US lawsuit to bankrupt or jail anyone...
At Hemel indoor dome i witness quite a few skiing / boarding around with headphones either listening to music or availing themselves of the free WiFi and holding conversations as they ski / board down. I attempt to give wide margins to such. If i talk to friends there who use headphones listening to music, they can't hear my voice and have to remove a ear piece or off the music to natter.
If people can over ride safety protocols because it suits them they will - never seen reading / writing text messages on motorways? We all know that kills and yet the urge for some cannot be constrained.
Can we rely upon you having the 10 ski safety rules there for users to 'tick' as read and understood to be actually relied upon them obeying them unlike an instructor who might loose his licence or be held legally liable for the safety of his clients in an accident situation. Yeah, yeah, i know i'm discussing hypothetical s ...
On a practical matter, i'd be surprised if i have 2mm spare under my liner base to take the pressure matt thickness. Most would but i haven't and i expect many athletes would be pushed to find that spare volume either...admittedly, i cram my foot into low volume boots. 
Apart from the above doubts, i'd love to have a go... 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I am sure the goggles with displays worse than these would be
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Poster: A snowHead
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@recz, Reading that you have used them, how durable are the pads and cables? In my boots I put the liners and shells on and off separately. So if the pressure pad is tween liner and shell, I can see them getting scrunched up and the cable getting worn through/damaged.
Could put the pad under custom footbed inside liner, but then have to route the cable either out through a hole in the liner heel and to top of shell, or up inside liner along achilles/calf.
Wondered what you might think??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| T_Hee wrote: |
@red 27,
I'm hoping it can be hired for a day for a try out... |
If you're ever in the Austrian Alps, we'd love to go for a ski with you to demo Carv to answer all your valid questions.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| RossCarvDigitalSkiCoach wrote: |
| T_Hee wrote: |
@red 27,
I'm hoping it can be hired for a day for a try out... |
If you're ever in the Austrian Alps, we'd love to go for a ski with you to demo Carv to answer all your valid questions. |
Saw you at the ski show but didnt stop to talk.
When and where in Austria will you be?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@ster, you should have come and said hello! Our team of data scientists are in London although we have a large testing team in Mayrhofen next to Hintertux glacier.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Will be in Kaltenbach. If I get over to Mayrhofen how do I find/get hold of you?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| colinstone wrote: |
@recz, Reading that you have used them, how durable are the pads and cables? In my boots I put the liners and shells on and off separately. So if the pressure pad is tween liner and shell, I can see them getting scrunched up and the cable getting worn through/damaged.
Could put the pad under custom footbed inside liner, but then have to route the cable either out through a hole in the liner heel and to top of shell, or up inside liner along achilles/calf.
Wondered what you might think?? |
I'd say they are pretty durable - not not much chance of the insole getting scrunched up once it's in. Not saying it would be impossible to cause wear eventually but with a bit of care I don't think it should be an issue. I've never taken off/put on boots like you so maybe I can't really say definitively but from reading the updates on Kickstarter, I know there have been a number of iterations purely focussed on enhancing aspects of the durability. E.g. they've fixed problems to do with the connector pins and have moved from a printed circuit board to a flexible printed circuit board to improve the robustness of the insole. The cabling is quite wide, feels pleasingly soild and sits flush with the boot. If you were really concerned about friction between cable and liner you could potentially gaffer tape the cable to the shell for added security.
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@ster, We're in Mayrhofen. Email me ross@motionmetrics.co if you'd like to demo Carv and we'd be happy to show you all the great features we've built including the audio coaching and technique analysis functionality.
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Not sure I could spend £200 on a gadget but looks good.
Loving the stereotypes in the marketing, all the men are charging/racing/jumping, the women is in a fur lined coat skiding about.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| RossCarvDigitalSkiCoach wrote: |
| @ster, We're in Mayrhofen. Email me ross@motionmetrics.co if you'd like to demo Carv and we'd be happy to show you all the great features we've built including the audio coaching and technique analysis functionality. |
Cheers. If we end up heading there will drop you a line.
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@RossCarvDigitalSkiCoach, having looked at the Kickstarter.com and found Carv, i understand...but one thing, please put up some evidence the pressure sensor footbed is truly only 1mm - thanks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Recently they had a note at their home page that was 2mm, but in FAQ, 1mm. I made the point and they apologised and confirmed ~2mm.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| RossCarvDigitalSkiCoach wrote: |
| @ster, We're in Mayrhofen. Email me ross@motionmetrics.co if you'd like to demo Carv and we'd be happy to show you all the great features we've built including the audio coaching and technique analysis functionality. |
Hi Ross,
I've been following this quietly, as I'm not sure what to make of it, but given how much you can spend on lessons while skiing which have been very hit and miss for me, I'd like to give this a go.
I'm in Les Gets next week, but its just a boys trip away, then I'm in Zell am See three weeks after that skiing with friends who go there for the season. I'll send you an email to try to arrange a time with you.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| Dr John wrote: |
| or just, perhaps, you know, go skiing. |
You're, surely, joking! I've never met a skier who wouldn't give their good right ski pole to prove - in numbers - that they are categorically better than the next guy. |
Haha. So true!
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You know it makes sense.
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Hi,
Have any Snowheads out there received their Carv and tried it out yet?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Have my eye on this myself, not getting it for this year cause it won't arrive soon enough for my trip but really looking forward to hearing how people find it
I have the app and see the training in it. I think this could live and die on the amount of training content, if there's plenty to go through it'd be great
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Poster: A snowHead
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@MeriDebs, I got mine this week and took it to Hemel today with everything crossed that it will work inside. It didn't but then without GPS to determine position I'm not sure how it could work so I knew it would be hit or miss. Snowdome mode would be totally amazing since that's where I'll spend the summer doing drills. They did announce an issue with connecting the app to the units so, who knows, it might have been that. Both ours kept losing connection to the app. I'm happy to accept some teething issues for a period of time although would really hope all is good to go by March.
I generally have issues with my feet in boots, I appear to have a crazy low threshold for pressure, so when I added the pads into my main pair of boots it was too uncomfortable for me. I placed them in my more relaxed boots and they were ok and probably helped a little as I probably have a bit too much space in those. My wife also has a set and they went fine in her boots so she thinks I'm just a wus.
So I've got mine, they look very well made, very nicely presented and boxed, had some fun routing the cables, setup was easy, so we shall see. First proper trip is in March so fingers crossed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@RossCarvDigitalSkiCoach, Hi Ross, have tried e-mailing you but no response so I thought I'd ressurect this thread. Keen on buying some Carv insoles for the coming season and am wondering about availability and delivery times (I'm UK size 10)? Carv website says preorder only. Also wondering how many snowheads actually bought this product last season and what their opinion of them is?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@almost there, mine never worked, you'd set them up and by the time it came to skiing they needed setting up again, this would be after you'd just left the restaurant where you looked a bit silly moving your boots around...
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 25-10-18 10:20; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Little Martin wrote: |
| @almost there, mine never worked, you'd set them up and by the time it came to skiing they needed setting up again by the time you'd left the restaurant where you'd looked a bit silly moving your boots around... |
That's both a shame and embarrassing.. thought this had potential..
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think they might have fixed that I know with my wife’s she just had to lift her foot occasionally to reset the sensors but no waving around.
We had mixed results with the devices. Mine did really end up hurting too much in my boots. But then my boots hurt without them as well so I had to give up on the units and take them out of my boots. I’ve new boots now so I will try them again in them.
My wife’s have stayed in her boots without issue so ymmv.
I had some issues with the lessons aspect as they jumped in difficulty quite quickly. Apparently for this next season they’ve expanded and evened out the lessons so that should be better. Previously you ended up getting into a lesson where it kept telling you it’s failed. That really wound me up so I’m looking forward to seeing if that’s better.
I’m really hoping they’ll go in my new boots as I still think it’s got potential. Don’t think it’ll replace the lessons I take though.
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Hi everyone, I love gadjets so I was very curious about Carv, got mine in January and test them on my ski trip in Austria. A pitty that it only runs on Iphone still.....Had to borrow one just for the trip. I really liked it, It didn't bother me much within the boots and I have had major boot problems. Setting up was simple enough. I only had to recalibrate them 2 times the whole week and it took no longer than 2 minutes, more time from taking off the gloves, getting the phone , etc, then the recalibrating itself. I liked the info it gave me, it wants you on you edges and carving the whole time, as snow was a bit hard and the temperatures were very low, we partially skid more so be less tiresome so I always had the feedback to "improve my maximum edge angle and the duration of my edge through the turn. Game levels are fun. I'm going back in March hopefully I can test it some more and improve my ski IQ up on 122 now. The only big complaint was from my husband every time we sat in a chair you get a 15-20 sec feedback of you run, and how to improve, and he always seemed to be wanting to talk to me precisely at that time  , I think he teases me about it, but in the end he wants a Carv for himself!!
Let me know if you have any questions about it
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Husband talking to wife! That will never do!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'd still love to see a snowboard version. No reason it couldn't work in exactly the same way, just different parameters.
Purely from personal curiosity (I'm geeky about this stuff) but I'm both a top-level snowboard instructor and an engineering graduate with a bit of background in condition monitoring and data-mining if any Carv people are keen to chat!
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I'd still love to see a snowboard version. No reason it couldn't work in exactly the same way, just different parameters.
Purely from personal curiosity (I'm geeky about this stuff) but I'm both a top-level snowboard instructor and an engineering graduate with a bit of background in condition monitoring and data-mining if any Carv people are keen to chat!
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FAQ
