In your original post I think you are talking about 25 degree slopes, not 25 % slopes. 25% is 14 degrees, you can cross country ski down that
Looking at the weather you had rain on Tue. 31st to 2200 meters. On the 2nd (Th.) it was dry but warm with the zero iso at 2700m finally Th/Fr night it cooled down with fresh snow, 15cm Thursday night, 10cm on Friday then further snow on Saturday when you skied the slope. I guess the soft slab is around 30cm deep at the crown. Winds were strong on Thursday night, a mild foehn from the south would have moved snow around.
So the following scenarios come to mind
scenario.1, and I think this is what your guide is talking about. Rain falls below 2200 meters, wet snow above say to 2400/2500m. Wednesday and Thursday it stays warm so the snow surface is still warm and humid and even where snow fell on Tuesday there is no temperature gradient.
Fresh snow falls on Friday but it is now colder so you have the rain layer at around zero degrees, a thin snowpack on top and maybe the air temperature above that at -5 (going by the FL), giving a temperature gradient of around 30C/meter. This will cause the snow immediately above the rain crust to begin to facet especially as it is full of moisture before the fresh snow but this would only have started to happen on Friday/Saturday. A process called melt-layer recrystalization. Persistence depends on how advanced the transformation of the snow crystals is as you add snow you reduce the temperature gradient and slow down, or potentially reverse, the growth of the crystals. Also once deeply buried - 50 to 100cm - they are less prone to triggering. It could be a layer that will stick around to the thaw.
scenario.2 on Wednesday/Thursday a hoar layer formed on the surface as the skies were clear due to diurnal radiation. Calm air in wooded clearings is notorious for this. Again surface hoar is persistent. This seems less likely given the temperatures and cloud cover and strong winds.
scenario.3 the slab triggered on the recent fresh snow, frequently the first flakes can form a weak layer of their own that persists for a day or so until the snowpack compresses. Hence the old saw of not skiing 2 days after fresh snowfall.
It looks as if the slope has some wind loading - the depths are variable and there seem to be some snow pillows at the top of the slope behind the trees. Wind blown snow is never a positive thing. The photo of the avalanche you took at the end of January was on a wind loaded slope, the slope on the west side (which you couldn't see) was bare of snow.
Remember if it is open enough to ski it is open enough to avalanche and even quite small slides can have serious consequences where there are obstacles, as you discovered. I've got some photos somewhere of a reasonably big skier triggered avalanche in the Monetier woods and I recall another in 2013 where the victim suffered a knee injury and was out for 18 months!
Not airbag terrain that's for sure. Your instinct not to pull the trigger was probably right.
Your guides comments are funny, sounds Ibsenesque in la Grave, hardly gives you confidence in the people running the place.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@davidof, a highly technical "nozaesque" appraisal from behind a screen
And yes your various scenarios etc all probably have elements that are correct.
I'm not too sure if you're agreeing with Joe or are "dissing" him, which I think is not at all too cool, as this "guide" (by the way he was not with us) is in on the mountain nigh on every day practically observing the actual conditions, and was alarmed at the developing situation from Jan 31st and was, and has been attempting to highlight that there was a real "issue" that should not go unpublicised.
Take a look at his FaceBook posts and re-read his posts.
I was with a major ski photographer tonight, who's been in the valley for well over twenty years, and said "trouble is Gavla, you do way more shite than most, hence greater the chance of getting caught out" all I know is that hopefully this incident will go into the grey matter of experience, yet again
At the end of the day, whilst all very well to attempt to assess / critique what happened as is so often the case on this forum, be it some pour soul in a collision not wearing a helmet etc, shite happens
Anyone want to loan me their knee
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Weathercam wrote:
@davidof, a highly technical "nozaesque" appraisal from behind a screen
...and a very useful assessment for everyone reading this from a very experienced off-piste skier. You did ask what the error traps were, remember?
I don't think @davidof is 'dissing' your bro Joe at all. If anything, he's highlighting the very issue that's been raised himself.
In your original post I think you are talking about 25 degree slopes, not 25 % slopes. 25% is 14 degrees, you can cross country ski down that
You might well think that, I couldn't possibly comment
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
'm not too sure if you're agreeing with Joe or are "dissing" him, which I think is not at all too cool, as this "guide" (by the way he was not with us) is in on the mountain nigh on every day practically observing the actual conditions, and was alarmed at the developing situation from Jan 31st and was, and has been attempting to highlight that there was a real "issue" that should not go unpublicised.
That's not how I read it. I read it as @davidof, being concerned that pressure was being applied on a guide not to speak openly about safety issue for commercial reasons. Not a criticism of Joe ar all. And assuming that my interpretation is right, I totally agree with him. Although I wouldn't call is worrying, I'd call it scandalous.
1. totally see why it would have "felt" safe to ski that in the moment - seductive
2. but objectively (with time to reflect) the angle, the "glade" and the fact you had seen a skier trigger a little slip above should have been enough to keep you off it. I'm not an expert but I think the few bushes in that slope are more likely to be fracture points than pin the snow pack. False friends
3. I take your points and others about whether pulling the bag would be a good idea in trees but my feeling is that it would be sensible to make that decision before getting into the line and the choice should be
a) too many objects to hit, don't pull the bag whatever happens - remove handle
b) bag probably worth deploying - PULL IT AT THE FIRST SIGN OF TROUBLE
The reason I say that is that from watching headcam footage of avalanches it seems absolutely classic that the first phase is "oh this is no big deal, I can ski out" but that phase 2 "expletive deleted" happens far too quickly after. Watch and wait isn't a viable strategy.
Like I say, I'm no expert so would really appreciate opinions on this.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 6-02-17 12:10; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
BTW 2
You sound quite composed about the whole thing. I bet it was bloody terrifying. Get well soon.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Weathercam, Glad to hear that you are pretty much ok. Coincidentally my closest call was very similar and in Serre Chevalier too.
A stupid split second decision to turn down a 1) steeper slope with less trees, 2) south facing in the sun, 3) late afternoon, 4) when I was back marker and finally 5) terrain trap
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@jedster, reading @davidof's comments now in the cold light of the day and not on red wine and Diciofenac / Tramadol / Ibuprofen I think I can see where he was coming from now, it was the use of Ibsenesque that maybe threw me.
I've been in touch with a fair number of Serre locals since, and most are astounded at what and where it happened, and out of those locals only 10% or so use airbags and are pure FreeRiders not going anywhere near a pair of skins.
The whole area of the chair lift is intensely controlled at the top as it's such easily accessible terrain and we were well down when it occurred.
I was thinking back it's now been 20 years since I first visited La Grave and Serre, which is where you go if staying in La Grave and storm conditions hit. When it's deep fresh snow you need to ski steep in the trees and as such that's what the terrain is about.
In hindsight I just think that was too big an open glade that was holding too much snow on too steeper pitch, where I dropped in the trees were tight and it was only once below did the terrain open out more into the trap?
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Quote:
When it's deep fresh snow you need to ski steep in the trees and as such that's what the terrain is about.
You probably don't mean it quite how that reads but it reads wrong - if it is deep and fresh and the only terrain is steep then you may NEED to stick to the piste or the bar, you don't NEED to ski steep. But all things being equal glades are going to be more dangerous than tight trees I think.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Sharkymark wrote:
I don't think @davidof is 'dissing' your bro Joe at all. If anything, he's highlighting the very issue that's been raised himself.
I was just trying to relate the weather conditions over the last week with what Joe Vallone had highlighted to understand the problem a bit better. Obviously none of the scenarios I thought of may correspond to what happened or what Joe has observed.
I was also concerned that he wasn't able to talk freely about his concerns.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@jedster, when skiing storms and in fresh snow and deep deep powder the only place is in the trees and you need it to be steep (av black run pitch and more) otherwise you'll just get stuck.
I'm talking about tight trees and not open terrain with glades. I've been fortunate to have done this with many a guide over the years, both on a board and skis.
Two years ago I rememeber an epic day in Prali where we were having to ski a steep line under chair lift as it was about the only pitch we could not get stuck on, though seem to recall the guide fell
Though maybe now I might well assess my line a little more carefully, but you probably stand more chance of busting your leg on a submerged tree / tree stump than getting caught.
That whole area where I was caught will be well and truly skied out by the end of the week.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Weathercam wrote:
The whole area of the chair lift is intensely controlled at the top as it's such easily accessible terrain and we were well down when it occurred.
I do recall on the 1st off piste bash, heading out that way with the guides who then cut and kicked slabs away on a couple of sections. The snow was coming down pretty fast.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@Weathercam, good to hear you were shaken not stirred. bonne récupération
spyderjon wrote:
One of the problems with a fixed leash in that the ski is gonna stay with you in a slide - which is why the B&D leash has a shear link within it which will snap with that amount of load applied to it thus freeing you from your 'anchor'.
You could make your own by adding in a 60lb breaking strain loop of fishing line in to your Dynafit leash connection but as that leash is so short there's still a chance that it would snap in a regular fall with the potential for a lost ski. That's why the B&D leash is a lot longer so that it gives a gradual deceleration in a fall plus they extend enough to allow you to fix/remove skins without taking the skins off.
Jon what does 60lbs actually mean?
...am swinging round to this system as i have always poo poo'ed it for the reason you give initially but wasn't aware of a built in shear link.
I was involved in a lost ski episode with a pow unity tracker last week which unfortunately ended up being a walk out, which also has got me doubting my resqski system. I know it isn't a blue tooth system but still..and it messes with my bases when transporting.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
B&D call it a "fuse". The idea is that there's a safety link that will break before a trapped ski tears your leg off
B&D used to use different width cable ties, which I've done, but they've gone a bit more scientific now. I think a 4mm width cable tie breaks around 50lbs - but I could be wrong!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
60lbs refers to the static failure load. Fishing line is perfect as it's closely controlled and available in a huge variety of weights. Usually have to buy a 25 or 50 yard spool of 'shock leader' material but hey ho you'll never run out.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
What does 50 lbs equate to ?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
push on the shoulder by a midget ?
push on the shoulder by a bear ?
... You probably don't mean it quite how that reads but it reads wrong - if it is deep and fresh and the only terrain is steep then you may NEED to stick to the piste or the bar, you don't NEED to ski steep. But all things being equal glades are going to be more dangerous than tight trees I think.
I'm just laughing, because to me the meaning of the original was perfectly clear as it stands.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Super Steezy wrote:
What does 50 lbs equate to ?
22.6796 kilo Now was it an Asian or an American bear?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
I'm just laughing, because to me the meaning of the original was perfectly clear as it stands.
Nah - I still think the tone is "well what was I going to do, it was a powder day and that was the only terrain available?" . If the snow pack isn't right and the only terrain is steep you don't need to ski it. Discretion the better part of valour etc. And for the avoidance of doubt:
Quote:
I'm talking about tight trees and not open terrain with glades. I've been fortunate to have done this with many a guide over the years, both on a board and skis.
Sure. Of course. Loads of the time it will be safe. Depends on the snow pack.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Weathercam wrote:
@davidof, a highly technical "nozaesque" appraisal from behind a screen
Yeah, I kind of feel I've earned the right to that.
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Ohhhh Willy waving contest 😄
Somewhere I've got a diploma from the very intense Euro Avalanche course I actually did a few years back that all UK aspirant guides have to do to progress to become a guide.
However I'd rather do hours up the hill Freeriding / Ski touring with accomplished guides etc, doing road trips, chasing snow etc etc as I readily acknowledge I'm fortunate to be able to do.
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@Weathercam, I am pretty sure @davidof, has done more than his fair share of that too.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Hells Bells, why yes of course
.......
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Weathercam, so what did go wrong!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I fecked up.....
Was in the wrong place at the wrong time and messed up.....
As has been so unfortunately the scenario in numerous cases with incidents like this, and like i said I was lucky.
Was I reckless, probably so, but that's what can happen with the red mist of powder skiing to get that line.
I admire Davidoff for all he does and his education to ohers, and hopefully the feeling is mutual.
But if we all knew the textbook answer then we would not for ever be reading of fatalities off piste.
I also partake in high wind kitesurfing and the accidents involving experienced surfers is equally disconcerting.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
OK my 2c... I think I have a perspective that benefits sharing here... the following description doesn't represent me inherently but I think there is a element of this in most of my demographic that I call the "Gopro Generation"
Ie. Millenial snowheads, with appetites for big mountain freeski Salomon youtube content, enough money to throw at fat skis and backcountry Goretex, and a social media fueled want of hothead Gopro footage that mimics Eric Pollard and all the heroes we aspire to be in our own lunchtimes.
There is WAY too much encouragement on youtube and vimeo to get on the off-piste buzz without knowing what you're doing.
THat's not even talking about skinning, backcountry etc... I'm just referring to seeing some tracks that lead off the trail, or some untracked powder and figuring that all roads lead to rome and a quick shortcut through these trees will make for some sweet footage before coming across the trail again lower down.
I nearly killed myself doing this last year in Fugen - nearly left wife and future behind. Because I succumbed to the urge (and followed my numpty boarder friend - he still doesn't know how close I can to carking it ). Ended up running out of slope, on top of a cliff, with the piste I left way uphill, now on the other side of a steep ravine. 4pm in Feb and phone dead. Lost my mate and alone, not a clue what to do. All options are bad. Decided to again take a shortcut, across the ravine, shuffled down the side of the cliff and into the trap (a steep ravine with lightly wooded sides and deep windblown powder pocket), trying to climb the other side up to the trail, 2 steps forward 2 steps back, going nowhere. Losing the light, starting to panic. Eventually, by brute determination I was able to lift myself out high enough to click in and traverse to where the trail reappeared through the woods. Got to the bottom of the run, utterly exhausted, just as the lifties were clearing off, managed to flag a lift downhill with them to share the experience with the boys... all in terms of "yeah wicked last run, through the trees, bit sketchy in places, can't wait to see the footage" macho horse manure.
What I'm trying to say is... nothing but respect to a report like this from OP who has retold a close call in all its gory detail. The big players have a greater role to play, there needs to be more scare stories out of the Candide and Faction camps to balance the stoke with healthy fear for survival!... but with a commercial agenda, the steeps and pillow drops will always get the lion's share... which makes snowhead reports of close calls like this all the more important... I happen to think the old heads here would be very surprised with the numbers who stumble in via google and view these posts without posting... so tut-tutting needs to be reined in because if folk get the impression they'll be patronised for sharing a close call they won't share and a vital message won't get coverage!
SO - thanks Weathercam for sharing, I got a ton of vital perspective out of this and others' comments also, hopefully other lurkers/drifters also get a dose of reality before they take to the slopes chasing the recent snowfall and make bad decisions. Cheers, stay stoked and stay safe
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Glad this turned out ok, a timely reminder to everyone how easily/quickly a nice day out can turn into a nightmare. Thanks for the share.
Just for the record and to plant a seed in everyone's mind, if you even vaguely think about your airbag during anything like this, PULL IT!
Refills are cheap, lives are not.
Worst case it's sluff and you feel like a tit, but you get to practice pulling your bag in a live situation regardless, best case it saves your life!
As for the potential of increasing risk of hitting a strainer, you can't evaluate that mid run (as has been mentioned), and i'd rather hit a tree on the surface of a slide than underneath it anyway.
Stay safe folks
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Hmm.
1 - respect for sharing, and glad you're ok!
2 -
Weathercam wrote:
But if we all knew the textbook answer then we would not for ever be reading of fatalities off piste.
From reading most reports about accidents it seems the majority have no idea of the textbook answer. Many many cases where it should have been abundantly clear the slope was suspect.
3. Yep you messed up, especially considering the apparently specific and known snow problem
4. Pretty sure I'd have messed up too. In trees like that (from what I can tell in the photos) I think most of us, including me, most of the time, would just think "woohoo clear cut send it!" and go. Despite knowing trees aren't inherently safe, conditions - and localised terrain - have to be pretty unusual before I really start to think about it. So thanks for the lesson.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I apologise if I sounded overly critical. As I said early on - I could easily have been seduced into skiing it. The reason I picked up on weathercam's PHRASING (not I think his meaning) is because of how it could beninterpreted by less experienced readers than him.
I'd also echo thanks for posting up the story - I find discussing real examples very helpful to learn at low risk. It's hard to do a post mortum (questionable choice of words) without it sounding critical but I suspect weatherman is big and ugly enough to realise that
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@jedster, hoi who you calling big and ugly
@Skiwi 55, raises a bit of a topical point re Go-Pro generation etc - though I think it's more about Social Media.
Few weeks back I was skiing down in Italy with a guide and a mate, and once back at the hotel we'd all be glued to our phones / tablets taking pictures off and uploading them to various social media channels and blogs, including the guide!
I commented about this and he agreed that there is almost a pressure to out do your mates, and who has the been getting the best powder etc
For the Guide it was not just about promoting his services to his FaceBook likes (clients) but also to other Guides - as in "look at the conditions we've been getting!"
I'm in a Whatsapp group for both skiing and kitesurfing and at times it's ridiculous, with the general theme being about the great conditions one's getting etc etc rubbing it in to those stuck in the office / with the family etc
Should "Social Media" be added to the list of Heuristic Traps?
@Weathercam, thanks for posting this. As @clarky999 said, this is the kind of terrain that many of us, me included, will often think of as "safe terrain for an avalanche day" and not necessarily give it the respect it deserves.
It's hard to own up to mistakes. I climb far more than I ski nowadays and there is a similar issue/difficulty within the UK climbing community in talking about and discussing mistakes/errors/accidents and the inevitable criticism and upset that ensues so I do appreciate it when people confess to making a mistake and are honest about the decisions they have made to get into that position.
One question I do have is, have you skied these trees/this area before on "high risk" days and if so, do you think the fact that it was fine then affected your decision making this time?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Very much with @Skiwi 55 here except that even before GoPro's and social media we were all quite capable of "getting ourselves in the poo-poo". Playing it by the book is easier said than done when we have a human brain rather than a computer model in our skull. But I agree that helmet cams, youtube, etc. has made things worse. I like to use the phrase "if in doubt, dack out" but that relies on me using my noggin and asking questions of myself and others.
I agree we should expose the world to the stores such that @Weathercam and @Skiwi 55 have released.
I think it would be a fallacy to believe that "good behaviour" will isolate you from all risk.
Things go wrong, systems are fallible, you may die. That's kind of the whole point for lots of young people, and some not so young too.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Skiwi 55 wrote:
Ended up running out of slope, on top of a cliff, with the piste I left way uphill, now on the other side of a steep ravine. 4pm in Feb and phone dead. Lost my mate and alone, not a clue what to do.
No map, no compass, no daylight and alone - and with an over-reliance on your mobile phone and calling an Uber. Time to learn some mountain craft, I think. Although ski resorts often have a similar feel to a municipal swimming pool - busy, coffee on tap, loads of people around - they're places where people die.
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davidof wrote:
giving a temperature gradient of around 30C/meter.
30 Deg C per meter ?
Shirley you can't be serious !
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@DB, I'm now looking at cheap fold up metal detectors that fit in a back-pack, so when knee is better ski to the bottom of the slope and skin up looking for the ski.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
). Ended up running out of slope, on top of a cliff, with the piste I left way uphill, now on the other side of a steep ravine. 4pm in Feb and phone dead. Lost my mate and alone, not a clue what to do. All options are bad. Decided to again take a shortcut, across the ravine, shuffled down the side of the cliff and into the trap (a steep ravine with lightly wooded sides and deep windblown powder pocket), trying to climb the other side up to the trail, 2 steps forward 2 steps back, going nowhere. Losing the light, starting to panic. Eventually, by brute determination I was able to lift myself out high enough to click in and traverse to where the trail reappeared through the woods. Got to the bottom of the run, utterly exhausted, just as the lifties were clearing off, managed to flag a lift downhill with them to share the experience with the boys... all in terms of "yeah wicked last run, through the trees, bit sketchy in places, can't wait to see the footage" macho horse manure. 
