First Time Poster - quad pain

A snowHead

Just from my own experience and bad technique ... I have been skiing regularly since 1986 ...
I would be almost certain that your problem is skiing in the back seat. I still have this issue even after all of these years,but thankfully not all the time.
If you stand up with your legs relaxed and slightly flexed at the knees you can stand there all day. We skiers all seem to think that the laws of physics change when you strap on skis.
The moment you sit even a few degrees back really the only muscles holding you up are your thighs. It then doesn't take very long for agony to ensue [as with the 'sitting against the wall' excersise].
If I am happy,relaxed and on the middle of my skis I can ski hard and fast all day with little or no muscle pain. The MOMENT I get scared, sit back, and start fighting the hill my thighs start killing me.
It is very annoying that the difference in body angle from no pain to a lot of pain is minimal.
It's all about being relaxed in the centre of your skis .... I find it is more my mind that stops me skiing well than anything else. Of course good equipment is important but not a much as good relaxed technique for pain free skiing.

A snowHead

@VT2016, a boot with a short cuff and too much forward lean is the probable culprit.

Get some salomon x-max 100's (or similar 'punter' boot) and you'll be able to stand up straight without that constant tension through the quads

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@VT2016, I alas, have the same issue as you, and have done for 15 years ever since I started skiing! Shocked

Specifically, I have to stop every 3 or 4 minutes, and allow my thighs/quads to recover for 30 seconds or so. And I do NOT get much thigh burn at night or much stiffness in the morning, because I'm not able to really exhaust my quads.

I've concluded it's just something to do with my overall individual skeletal structure, and/or physiology, and/or some specific muscle that weakens, and/or some nerves or such like (but I never have any nerve pain).

And I assure you all I have tried EVERYTHING:

Water
Sports drinks
No alcohol (I don't drink)
Not smoking (I don't smoke)
Chocolate bars
Bananas
Losing weight
More salt/less salt
Cycling
Running
Walking
Swimming
Lots of skiing!
Breathing
Stretching
Sleeping
Sports massage
Gym (specific work for skiing)
Gym leg work
Prostretch calf & achilles tendon stretcher exercises every morning
Core-strength work
Cardio
Many one-on-one ski lessons (I'm told my technique and stance is fine, and I'm not in the backseat)
Video assessment of my ski technique (don't tell me I'm in the backseat, because I can show you endless videos that I'm not Very Happy

)
"Coacheseye" iPhone app to analyse my stance in slow-motion with graphics etc. (again, I'm not in the backseat)
Being centred and relaxed on my skis — not fighting the mountain.
New boots
Trying different skis
Visits to Colin and Andy at CEM with new boots, footbeds, delta angle, canting etc with my skis & boots on their balance machine. Plus going back for further adjustments, and trying more/less forward lean.

...and anything else you can think of, I've done it; but I can still not ski all the way down a mountain without stopping. Not a hope.

But it has got somewhat better with everything I've done over the years, and every little helps for sure. Colin & Andy @ Solutions4Feet were a big step forward, and their magic "balance" machine and shims etc., ensured I am in a relaxed, neutral stance on my skis.

Plus I have found recently that keeping my skis closer together has given me more endurance, as it alters the muscles you are using somewhat. I am also careful to push my hips forward, bend at the ankles (not the hips) and really hold my hands out in front of me — all of which keep me forward. Loosening my top buckle and strap slightly has also helped me really bend my ankles, and thus be forward and over the top of my skis. But I'm not too far forward if anyone is worried.

Also I will alter my stance during the day to use different muscle groups, and I will alter my gap between my skis; and this will help for a while only. I will also try and stand upright more for a while. And in the evenings, I get some calf stiffness and aching, which I'm told shows I am leaning forward and not in the backseat.

But then I will go skiing with a 50 year old guy, who has only ever skied for 3 weeks in his life, is technically obese, smokes, drinks, sits at a computer for 14 hours a day, does not exercise, has bad rented boots, no technique, and is in the backseat all day — yet he will sail up-and-down the slopes with out stopping until the cows come home for days on end. That's life.

Lastly, please don't tell me I'm in the backseat, because I can assure you, I am not. Laughing

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@VT2016, Get a few lessons. Instructor will work it out fairly quickly. Slightly OT, but might be related. I was a good golfer and average to decent squash player until I started rowing. Golf game went to bits. Squash improved dramatically. A pile of lessons (and cash) later we worked out that I was favouring my (massively powerful Laughing

) quads over timing and technique. I still row and never get quad burn. Can't bang out the sub 1.30 splits any more but I can string a few 1.40s together.. Your issue might be a result of your other training.

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@Poogle, that is totally weird. Mental issue? Skiing is a very psychological sport in my lay opinion...

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@Poogle, sounds like you're in the back seat Twisted Evil

It's quite funny to read various websites for 'expert' opinion on lactic acid. The web doctor type sites seem to suggest that it builds as a result of heavy exercise when there isn't enough oxygen and that the burning is a warning mechanism to stop your ruining your body. However the exercise freak websites seem to say that's all rubbish and that it's good for you....sadly none seem to give much advice other than what you're already doing.

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I have never had problems with quad burn despite a tendency to backseat. I do not do specific training for the sake of training and rely on my daily activities to keep reasonably in trim.

@SnoodyMcFlude, A quick glance at Mrs Rabbie's physiology books suggests that the web doctor type sites are correct about the formation of lactic acid. Also too high levels of it do damage muscle fibres. Once you are getting enough oxygen you convert it back to glucose. You can raise the threshold at which you feel pain by training

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@VT2016, I've just lost my reply, so abridged version. Male, small feet (24 mondo), fitted with woman's racing boot - quad burn hell. Gave up on them, bought same size but "unisex" (possibly just cosmetic difference) boot of a different make but with a more vertical and longer cuff - no quad burn.

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@Poogle, "did not eveolve to ski" ROFLOL Happy

Skiing is ine of the most prepostrous ideas ever. Pity it's so addictive... wink

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Again, some very helpful thoughts and comments here - much appreciated.

I have my own equipment - seemed like a sensible investment once I realised I was "hooked" Smile

My skis are Atomic Nomad Blackeye Ti (174cm) with XTO12 bindings. I intentionally got skis that were aimed at the upper limit of my skill set so I could grow into them - I love them. They feel stable at higher speeds and turn easily.

I agree with so much that is written above. In particular, whereas with beginners the problem is typically technique, if set up is not right then the beginner does not stand a chance – it applies to a lot of sports.

I have made a certain amount of progress. I happened to pass another ski shop and had my boot and skis with me (as you do). Went in for a chat. It was really useful. They had a good boot fitter and a ski instructor… so we had an impromptu coaching session. Ok, there wasn’t any snow exactly, but it allowed for some playing around with body position. It was a bit of an eye opener.

My boots do have quite a bit of forward lean, but it is within the range that one would call normal…. Unless you don’t do them up tight enough! It seems I had them way too loose, allowing my calves to flop forward. So I guess I did have too much forward lean… but it’s not the boots’ fault.

The other interesting thing that came out of it was body position. I have been so concerned about having my backside hanging out the back that apparently I have gone (a little) too far in the other direction. Legs too straight, hips pulled in too far forward.

There is another point that comes to mind. Although I had been doing a lot of leg work, it is all concentric. None of it is eccentric or quasistatic. That massively reduces its relevance. Something for me to think about – an adjustment to the training regime required.

I also think, if I am sufficiently self-critical, that whereas my CoG is reasonably forward standing at the top of the piste, or on easy green runs, I suspect that it is coming back quite a bit when things get a little steeper or bumpier. (Curiously, I went down a 45% slope yesterday and was so concerned about falling down it that I really exaggerated the lean forward... well, I thought I did, and there was far less leg pain than I was expecting - got down it fine in as much as I was on my skis rather than my face at the bottom Smile

).

The point about general relaxation and tension is also a very good one - yep, definitely far from as relaxed as I could be... I suspect that will come in time, but certainly something for me to think about.

So, going for a ski tomorrow morning with the family (what else is there to do on Christmas day?) and will see what happens with boots properly done up… Of course, I have beaten my legs up quite a bit in the last few days, so it is not going to be perfect. But I feel good about the fact that my body position is not the total disaster I thought it was, even if there is much work still to be done.

You know it makes sense.

Oh BTW @SnoodyMcFlude (and since this is my specialist subject Smile

), lactic acid formation does not generally occur as a result of the lack of oxygen (I say generally, because it may be a bit different in skiing).

When you use glucose as a fuel, it is broken down into two molecules of pyruvic acid and four hydrogen ions (H+). A little energy is released (about 15% of what is available in glucose). There is then a split in the metabolic pathway. EITHER the p/a and H+ are loaded into the mitochondria in the muscle cells together with oxygen, releasing the other 85% of the available energy and producing CO2 and water OR one H+ combines with the p/a to form lactic acid, but there is still an accumulation of H+ which is what causes the problem. So lactic acid is not the problem per se, but rather then evidence of the H+ accumulation.

Your muscle cells have different enzymes (lactate dehydrogenase and pyruvate dehydrogenase) which "direct" which pathway is chosen. You will produce some lactate at total rest. You have blood lactate concentration of around 1-2mM at rest. In a well trained person, the balance of enzymes changes to promote aerobic metabolism (but it is right to say that many other things change too so as to ensure greater oxygen supply and better H+ removal). So, yes, you need the oxygen to operate aerobically, but you will still produce lactate notwithstanding that there is available oxygen (which is why lactate threshold is below Vo2max).

The reason why it is a little different with skiing is because the muscle becomes occluded when under tension... blood stops moving through the muscle altogether. This creates H+ accumulation problems both because oxygen cannot get in, but also because the lactate cannot get out. (My best guess is that it is more of the latter than the former, but the former might also be operating as a contributing factor). If you are able to get the lactate out into the blood, it can be buffered by bicarbonate, forming carbon dioxide which you can breath out (or the lactate can be turned back into glucose or used as a fuel in other parts of the body). What is notable is that you do not see skiers, however much leg pain they may be suffering, desperately gasping for breath (breathing harder for sure, but not overwhelmed by Co2... although I defer to the more competent/competitive skiers on this and stand to be corrected - a world class skier might report uncontrollable gasping, but they don't seem to look like that?)(the breathing reflex is driven by the accumulation of CO2, not the lack of oxygen, at least not below 10,000ft). It suggests that the accumulated acid is building up locally in the muscles but is not overwhelming the body centrally. (Contrast the physiological condition of a rower or cyclist after a time trial).

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@VT2016, You must have some serious muscles if you can tense them enough to stop the blood flowing. Laughing

Half your last post was complete nonsense, in which case I conclude that all the self analysis isn't much better and your arse is probably hanging somewhere behind the tails of your skis.

A snowHead

I believe blood flow is very substantial impaired through static loaded muscle at quite low torques (say 35-40%). The contraction is an important part of moving the blood through the muscle. It makes skiing a really interesting physiological challenge.

Sorry you thought some of the last post was not correct (there were a few simplifications in there, but I thought it was enough for present purposes). In any event, probably best not to get into an off topic discussion.

I am extremely grateful for all the informative thoughts that people have taken the time to set out - being new to this particular sport, those responses are extremely useful.

A snowHead

@VT2016, I am pleased you are making progress and Merry Xmas by the way snowHead

On seeing skiers gasping for breath, check out any world cup racer at the end of a race. (Most recreational skiers aren't working so hard and it's not the most aerobic of activities vs. e.g. running).

Muscle occlusion under tension? Really? I am enormously sceptical. References please? My understanding is that blood flow increases under work. (Does "torque" apply? I think that's the wrong word...)

Hmmm, unfastened boots, definitely a huge issue if you aren't already reasonably skilled and quite balanced.

Sounds like you are on the right track, amazed no instructor has picked up on stance and tension issues, I would have thought they'd be glaringly apparent.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I must admit I'd never noted what seems to me extremely poor use of con- and ecc- centric v-a-v muscle training. Who thought that up?

Just re-read your post, so all your training is "on the lift" as it were? Yes, skiing is a very muscle balanced activity and I understand often described as quasi-static. So if you aren't training for that... Skullie

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But... I strongly think you are massively over analysing what is typically a pretty simple problem...

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From your description of not even being able to stand up tall on a flat bit of gradient, I'm almost certain that it's an excessive amount of forward lean in your boot that's causing it. I'd be incredibly sceptical of what the boot fitter told you - there are only a handful of them in the UK that are really experts, and most have just done a short course - which boot fitter was it? Your COG is meant to be balanced over the centre of your boot when you stand on a flat surface; it certainly shouldn't be in front of your toes!

The link to the Pink Pants thread that @gorilla provided is a good one and features info from one of the few guys in the UK that knows his onions regarding boot fitting and alignment: @CEM (does he still post here??).

In the meantime, try the squat test in your boots. This is where you stand on a flat surface and do a deep(ish) squat with your arms out in front of you. If your boots have the appropriate lean, your knees should be, more or less, directly under your shoulders/armpits. My guess is that your shoulders will be a good few inches in front of your knees.

see pic in link:https://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fi911.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fac317%2FmtnXtC%2Fron1.jpg%3Ft%3D1300754056&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theskidiva.com%2Fforums%2Findex.php%3Fthreads%2Fhelp-another-side-of-calf-boot-pain-issue.11906%2Fpage-2&docid=892jwGC5ZEBV5M&tbnid=FJ0vD82ov3FISM%3A&vet=1&w=530&h=313&source=sh%2Fx%2Fim

As a disclaimer, I'm not an instructor (although I do have CSIA level 2), but a mechanical engineer, recreational weightlifter and 35 yrs experienced skier.

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@underanewname - see e.g. de Ruiter C.J. et al., Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2007 Mar; 39(3) 443.

... and yes, probably over-analysing! Smile

@ben76 - bootfitters were in Kitsilano, Vancouver.

Merry Christmas all. Very Happy

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@VT2016, I think you have maybe missed the point? Muscle Occlusion is a clearly rather dodgy concept where you apply a strap to the upper limb to restrict venous return but (allegedly) allow arterial supply, hopefully to assist training.

The article you cite is quite clear on the mechanics (which are NOT that blood flow is reduced during exercise) and also that it doesn't help at all. I'm afraid your use of "torque" as a concept is also rather mis-applied...

A brief review on my part suggests that exercise increases muscular perfusion (which is what I would have thought).

Papers suggesting otherwise greatly appreciated Happy

After all it is free

This thread is useless without video of some skiing

@geeo, no, some of the chat is useless without references to reasonable research.

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Merry Christmas..............

VT2016 complains about quad pain - "indescribable" at that and then goes on to sez.............

"(1) If I put my boots on at home and straighten my legs, I fall forward… a lot. My CoG is way way beyond the tip of the boot (that may be absolutely normal?)
(2) If I do the above, the plumb line down from my knee is roughly in line with my toes; I have very short tibia’s compared to my femurs (and for my height generally), so this observation may be of limited use ?"

Pal-O-Mine, what boots you have clearly are not the design you need.......... You ARE in WAY too much of a forward leaning - racing boot as it were. Brings to mind the good old dummkopf days where many a recreational skier, in full blown racing boots with their knees in line with their (your) toes on mini (way too short) full blown slalom skies. In other words as I have said for years........, way too much boot and way too much/short a ski. It was beyond hysterical to witness these Einsteins in line, all the more on the slopes. What their quads and back went through in a given day no doubt fed the ibuprofen industry, as well, liquor industry. And the best part.......... The worthless ski shops had zero problem setting them up ($$$$$$$$) on these unconscionable rigs.

Time to get a set of boots that put you in a neutral stance with a softer flex. Too many today, on just the flex factor alone, are on too stiff a boot. Why the industry promotes this nonsense is almost simply beyond me.

Merry Christmas.

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@geeo,

Here's a far better video................. Merry Christmas...................

http://youtube.com/v/939gCB6UYBs

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@arcsinice, Most modern race boots are now slightly more upright in stance than in the old days. I do like a bit of forward lean and find no problem balancing centrally in the boot but I am not a hefty guy and carry more weight around my shoulders. I do now have a slightly softer more upright boot for off piste skiing which I will be testing out properly this season.

You know it makes sense.

Please let's just see the video rolling eyes

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Video, or the whole "quad fatigue" problem didn't happen Toofy Grin

A snowHead

Help!!

First Time Poster - quad pain

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