 Poster: A snowHead
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| rambotrader wrote: |
| moseyp wrote: |
| Out of interest rambotrader, have you raised this debate over at TGR? |
TGR? |
The more manly American version of Snowheads.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Unless you really can. Then tell them to suck it up.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
The more manly American version of Snowheads.
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*terrifying
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Dont be telling them you ski better than an instructor.....
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Definitely tell them you ski better than an instructor.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
It sounds like you might have a vested interest moseyp?
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Sounds like you need to wind your neck in a bit, rambo, is you want to continue to get good advice round here. This Forum has members who are real experts about Chamonix (I'm not one of them.....) who can tell you a lot of useful things and might be willing to go skiing with you if you don't come across as a complete tosser.
Guides are self employed and there's plenty of competition. And with instructors, it doesn't work in France like it does in US resorts where monopoly providers seem to rip off pretty well everybody. Even small resorts often have more than one ski school, and independent instructors, who have to offer competitive rates.
Neither is accommodation particularly expensive, especially in Chamonix where there are good value hostels etc. Though if you go in the peak French holiday weeks (4 weeks from 4 February in 2017) you can expect to find big lift queues, packed buses and high prices. I have an apartment in the Alps (not Chamonix) and always absent myself for those weeks.
Very few of us can afford 2 months in the mountains during our working lives (I am an old age pensioner) so don't expect a lot of sympathy for your pleading poverty.
Why are you fixated on the VB? There's a whole lot more than that in Chamonix and much that doesn't require any guides at all. And you can go wherever you like without a guide anyway; nobody's forcing you but your suggestion of just following a guided group in the hope that the guide would pull you out of a crevasse is crass.
Do you have any idea how long it takes to become a fully accredited high mountain guide in France? How much does a US accountant or lawyer charge for a day's work?
You might find the folk at TGR less abrasive...... 
PS Group lessons with the ESF are cheap. 13 euros-is an hour for their "expert level", 4.5 hours a day. And you'll find the instructor is a pretty good skier. A good way of discovering some of the skiing throughout the resort.
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Tell them you ski the East Coast, the Tetons are over-rated, and that anyone can ski Alaska if they have 120cm skis like yours. Oh, and that Chamonix is crap, and for posers only.
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@rambotrader, I'm glad you're excited about your trip, and it's awesome you'll have so much time there!
I think you might be misunderstanding the total costs involved though - so I hope I can put your mind at rest a little.
1. There is a huge amount of skiing in Chamonix that does NOT involve any glaciers. And I'm still talking seriously steep, tough, long stuff, offpiste. If you are confident offpiste, and routefinding, there is more than enough to keep you occupied for 2 months (I've done 2 seasons, plus more weekends, and barely scratched the surface of it). So the amount of time you'd be on a glacier (and therefore maybe wanting a guide) can actually be very small.
2. We're not suggesting you spend money on having a guide every day. If you really want to ski the VB, then maybe plan to do that twice with a guide - so 85x2 = 170Eur total per person, which isn't too bad over the course of 2 months. If you want to do it more often (I doubt it, once you see how much else there is) you'll probably know your way around by then, and have met some ski buddies to go with.
| rambotrader wrote: |
paying US $700 a day for an instructor (who gets maybe $100 of that) is a rip off. Group lessons are not much better.
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85 euros is not exactly cheap......although not cheap for a couple of hours and 1 run down the hill. Maybe ask the guides what they actually get. Not a real lot I'd venture to say. |
Actually it's about 4 hours. If the guide knows you are good, and can put you in a top group, it can be all day, and 2 (very very long) runs.
And the instructors in Europe are not paid like NAmerican instructors - they'll get more than 10/15%. Can be up to 50% depending on their level/employer (e.g. Evo2 instructors doing the groups on VB), and of course more if it's an independant guide.
There are other options for cheaper guiding (or similar too) that won't add that much to the cost. e.g. the Avalanche acedemy days I mentioned before (which I think are so excellent, and such good value, I do at least one every winter, even though I'm 'repeating' the same level), and SCGB - pay for membership, then only £10/20 per day of half day, with some very tough skiing on offer with a good group.
Just a quick other point I had to comment on:
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Not sure what the instructors are like in Europe as will be first time there. Given that skiing is a national obsession in a few countries I doubt that instructors are crap skiers. Bravado fine but reality better.
I've seen what 90% of people ski like: crap! Sorry to be clinical but that's the reality of people who show up for a week a year. |
The instructors are generally excellent. As for the other skiers on the mountain - the standard is very very high in Chamonix (I'm a reasonably good skier, pretty comfortable on NA double blacks if that helps for comparison, but I always feel like I'm a terrible skier in Chamonix compared to the general standard). Of course you will still get the once a year tourists (they get everywhere) - but unless you spend all your time on piste, or attempt to ski during the NY or half term mayhem, you will generally see a much higher standard of skiing than in most resorts. And as for when the FWT is in town.... Wow! Not just the competitors, but the place is full of people from all over the Alps just coming to watch the top guys, but also putting down lines of their own that amaze and scare me.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 17-08-16 15:08; edited 4 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| moseyp wrote: |
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Dont be telling them you ski better than an instructor.....
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Definitely tell them you ski better than an instructor. |
Because, how hard can it be?
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"Fair enough, but if you can't afford it then you can't afford to do it."
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit moseyp and I do not not need that whilst trying to fill in the blanks for a place I have never been to before. Also, I have no intention of "sneaking" into a helicopter or indeed a guided group but I and other skiers are not banks.
If you believe that being paid 85 euros for a group of 4 to 10 for 2 hours of work is fair pay for a contractor then please go to Monte Carlo and play the casinos. Unbelievable!
".....if you can't afford it then you can't afford to do it."
Yeah, that says a lot. Whilst this is indeed about affordability the real issue is that there are always expensive avenues as well as cheaper options, often for the same service. Six years skiing Colorado and Canada has taught me that and if you believe otherwise then you need to broaden your education.
It seems that you have an interest in this. Not sure if you are a guide but sounding very much like you are protecting an overinflated livelihood. Let's leave it at that mate. Enjoy 2017. Cheers.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@pam w, +1. Good points well stated.
Edit: and I've just read back and seen that rambotrader will be there over Half term unfortunately - so likely bumping up the total accommodation cost.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
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It sounds like you might have a vested interest moseyp?
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Sounds like you need to wind your neck in a bit, rambo, is you want to continue to get good advice round here. This Forum has members who are real experts about Chamonix (I'm not one of them.....) who can tell you a lot of useful things and might be willing to go skiing with you if you don't come across as a complete tosser.
Guides are self employed and there's plenty of competition. And with instructors, it doesn't work in France like it does in US resorts where monopoly providers seem to rip off pretty well everybody. Even small resorts often have more than one ski school, and independent instructors, who have to offer competitive rates.
Neither is accommodation particularly expensive, especially in Chamonix where there are good value hostels etc. Though if you go in the peak French holiday weeks (4 weeks from 4 February in 2017) you can expect to find big lift queues, packed buses and high prices. I have an apartment in the Alps (not Chamonix) and always absent myself for those weeks.
Very few of us can afford 2 months in the mountains during our working lives (I am an old age pensioner) so don't expect a lot of sympathy for your pleading poverty.
Why are you fixated on the VB? There's a whole lot more than that in Chamonix and much that doesn't require any guides at all. And you can go wherever you like without a guide anyway; nobody's forcing you but your suggestion of just following a guided group in the hope that the guide would pull you out of a crevasse is crass.
Do you have any idea how long it takes to become a fully accredited high mountain guide in France? How much does a US accountant or lawyer charge for a day's work?
You might find the folk at TGR less abrasive......
PS Group lessons with the ESF are cheap. 13 euros-is an hour for their "expert level", 4.5 hours a day. And you'll find the instructor is a pretty good skier. A good way of discovering some of the skiing throughout the resort. |
Apologies if I seem ticked off. You have to give newcomers a bit of a chance to work the joint out. Still doing that.
Accommodation in Chamonix commensurate with Colorado although Vail and Beaver Creek are the Monte Carlos of the snow so understandably expensive. Having said that we stayed a month on the outskirts of Vail a couple of years ago and it cost us no more than our regular digs....and indeed about the same as Chamonix, for which we have prepaid already.
Skiing 2 months works out pretty cheap. The worst part is the season pass but that will be on sale soon. Double the price of an Epic Pass in Colorado. I am also retired and hence need to get some value as well as the annual fix. It is affordable! And I ski because I make it work for us. Quite possible.
I will be skiing all areas and also Courmayeur and Verbier. The VB sounds like a challenge with some of the steeps and staying out of a hole. Will need to make a proper assessment once it is done and maybe no big deal. We'll see.
The point I raised about being pulled out of a hole was to indicate that guides would not just leave you there. Nothing more. Maybe I am wrong?
I take your point about the skills required but the issue is that there fees are not commensurate with the training.
What do TGR and ESF stand for? Yeah, 13 euros an hour fair enough but general instruction not needed. Moguls need work though and I will definitely take a few lessons if moguls technique available. I'll check it out if you provide further details.
Last thing.......I am not a yank. Just ski there because cheaper than my own country.
Thanks. Again apologies if I was a bit aggressive. Not used to being a target and a bit touchy at times. Goes with the age.
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| fixx wrote: |
@pam w, +1. Good points well stated.
Edit: and I've just read back and seen that rambotrader will be there over Half term unfortunately - so likely bumping up the total accommodation cost. |
Accommodation cost not too bad because of length of stay. That's why we ski for 2 months and not 1 week. 
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You know it makes sense.
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"Goes with the age"
Ha ha I know exactly what you mean, me too.
Vallee Blanche only a big issue - if your route finding copes with avvy danger - because it's glaciated. Guides nearby may help, but their priority is their own clients safety (I'm pretty sure).
Guides are not expensive, relatively, but I think we covered that  & their fees are entirely commensurate with their training.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit moseyp and I do not not need that whilst trying to fill in the blanks for a place I have never been to before. Also, I have no intention of "sneaking" into a helicopter or indeed a guided group but I and other skiers are not banks.
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I wasn't being sarcastic - I meant exactly what I said.
We're all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars #blessed
How do you still not understand what you're paying for?! Read back on Pam w's earlier posts, she's explained it better than I have - edit: or fixx post sorry
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It seems that you have an interest in this.
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I have none. I am not a guide. But I do live in the mountains, in a ski resort and I have the respect for them that they're due
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Poster: A snowHead
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What do TGR and ESF stand for?
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Ecole de ski Francais. TGR explained above. I get the impression you haven't read all the posts - I hope you took on board the one about insurance. Few policies cover skiing off piste without a guide.
Of course any guides (or anyone else, for that matter) in the vicinity of an accident will do their best to help. But they are not stationed every 100 metres.
The VB isn't necessarily a difficult ski. Loads of intermediate skiers do the easier routes. The danger on those routes is that the crevasses aren't visible and might lurk on deceptively benign terrain.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have read all the posts pam but maybe I missed this. Thanks for your contribution. Very helpful indeed.
Insurance noted: I knew that the cover I had with my Platinum Card was only on piste in designated ski areas so have already done a bit of work there. I did find it strange where you would be buying this insurance from and hope it is legit if something were to happen.
Chamonix will be a very interesting place to ski. Yeah, I read about a few deaths just recently (the guy in the flying suit and the French Foreign Legion). But then if the number is up I'd rather die on my skis than in a rocking chair with a straw in my mouth. What skier wouldn't. Having said that it would be nice to plug along for another decade (or two) if my dear wife can tolerate my skiing addiction.
You might also be able to shed some light on what we can expect from the locals. We spent 3 months in Mont Tremblant in Canada 7 years ago. Gorgeous little ski town although the skiing area was small. The only thing which got up our noses was the unfriendly nature of the local (French) people who refused to converse with us in English even though we suspected many did speak English. Is this going to be the same deal in Chamonix?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rambotrader wrote: |
| moseyp wrote: |
It's about €400 for the group, or for one person private. But if you don't want private, then pay €85 to join a group.
The VB has a reputation for being easy, most intermediate skiers could do it but I don't know anyone who would go up there without a local guide. I assume that's the sort of thing you're talking about? |
I was sort of thinking I'd go up and follow a group down. Yeah....they might end up doing cliff jumps (not me!) but I can pretty well handle most conditions other than ice, for whoch my allmountain skis are crap.
Is that an insane idea? |
Bad idea indeed. Just go with a local guide company and you may also choose which variant of the Valle Blanche to ski - the tourist one or the more advanced one. The guide company will also provide you with some safety equipment in case you fall into a crevasse (it does happen on a glacier). Also, as far as I understand ski rent is much more affordable in Europe than the USA, so check whether renting a pair is cheaper than taking your own over the pond (and you could then choose skis that are better suited for conditions)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| moseyp wrote: |
| Quote: |
Those of us who have been skiing a long time will appreciate the fact that skiers are fair game but pushing skiers into high cost guiding is not fair. Sure the guides train for this but then so do many other parts of society. I would hardly even try to compare guides with doctors and charging like a wounded bull at Pamplona is not what skiing should be all about. This sadly is how the industry seems to function worldwide.
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I don't think you appreciate how difficult it is to become a guide, how dangerous their work can be, and the value of putting your life into their hands.
€85 for several hours on the VB with a guide is hardly extortionate - I'd go so far as to say it's not even expensive. I pay €80 for ten minutes with my GP. Some people pay several times that for half a day with a ski instructor. It's hardly only for the wealthy |
I think the OP might be confused between the difference of a ski instructor and a mountain guide. And he said he never skied on glaciers,mso he may not understand all the advice and warnings he is gettting.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@rambotrader, on youtube you can search "vallee blanche ski" to get an idea of what its like, and add "crevasse" to the search to get convinced that you need a guide
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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refused to converse with us in English even though we suspected many did speak English. Is this going to be the same deal in Chamonix?
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Generally you'll find they'll refuse to speak to you in FRench even if you can as their English is better.
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That would help FreeRider. I will be brushing up on my high school French but the speed of speech is tough, unlike skiing.
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No worries, user.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@rambotrader, Chamonix has loads of people who aren't French - it's very cosmopolitan. We get lots of interesting posts here from people spending the season in Chamonix and there are very few complaints! But a little bit of schoolboy French will go down far better than simply spouting at everyone in English without even saying "bonjour" - even if that's about the limit of it. It's a basic courtesy in France, even before you (for example) order a beer.
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Thanks pam. Very informative.
My French goes a lot further than bonjour or au revoir so it will be interesting to dust it off after all these years.
Looking forward to 2017.
Still wanting some info in regard to our banking in France. Our main funds will need to come from a Citibank debit card and I am concerned that this may prove harder than first expected. Any suggestions as to where I can this facility other than at the airport?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rambotrader wrote: |
| Still wanting some info in regard to our banking in France. Our main funds will need to come from a Citibank debit card and I am concerned that this may prove harder than first expected. Any suggestions as to where I can this facility other than at the airport? |
I would expect that your debit card provides access to a worldwide network like Cirrus, there isn't a Citibank at Geneva Airport.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@rambotrader, try asking Citibank rather than some random internet strangers?
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Yes, Citibank should know. Or there are plenty of cards you can "load up" in advance if there looks like being a problem.
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I knew that the cover I had with my Platinum Card was only on piste in designated ski areas so have already done a bit of work there. I did find it strange where you would be buying this insurance from and hope it is legit if something were to happen.
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Not sure what that meant, really. But I think if you are US resident you would need to take out insurance there. Lots of Americans go off piste/back country skiing in Europe - it shouldn't be impossible but it will probably be expensive.
You can buy a French ski insurance either with your lift pass or separately but you'd need to be very careful about what it covered. Perhaps not a great deal beyond getting you off the mountain, which would be a start.
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You know it makes sense.
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@rambotrader, you'll be able to use your citibank debit card in any ATM that has the CIRRUS, MAESTRO or MasterCard logo.... that's pretty much every ATM in the world.
Simply for FX rate and bank charge purposes, you may want to explore a load up travel card as @pam w, suggests. These typically have preferential FX rates and no transaction fees. You can normally top these up either online or via an app direct from your Citi account. Get one issued by either Visa or Mastercard and you'll be able to use in ATMs and all shops that accept contactless as well Chip and PIN.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rambotrader wrote: |
| ...... Insurance noted: I knew that the cover I had with my Platinum Card was only on piste in designated ski areas so have already done a bit of work there. I did find it strange where you would be buying this insurance from and hope it is legit if something were to happen. |
Citibank UK's free insurance covers what you'd need - see page 19: https://www.citibank.co.uk/personal/documents.do?name=travel_insurance_policy
Off piste is explicitly included and there are no guide related exclusion clauses. This is what UK customers with appropriate balances get for free.
ATM selection?I guess you're asking because: "The 2.75% Commission as well as the 2% Charge are both waived for transactions at Citi ATMs, anywhere in the world."
Google is your friend: http://www.findmyciti.com/ however you're most unlikely to find a Citibank ATM around here. If you don't want to take those charges, then you need a different approach. The obvious way to do this with Citibank UK is to have multiple currency accounts (free), and link whichever you like to the card. Or have multiple cards. Other approaches obviously exist and may be more appropriate depending on what you're trying to achieve.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@philwig, As far as I can see, that policy covers loss of equipment, etc, but not rescue or medical costs
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's a general policy which doesn't anywhere separate repatriation costs caused by skiing from those arising from other activities for example walking, driving, or alpine climbing. Obviously contact them directly if you're concerned.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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That policy only covers 30 consecutive days.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Interesting discussion. We have (free) Platinum Credit Card Insurance but of course ONLY ON PISTE. That's fine for my better half but not for a high octane snow sniffer like myself. 30 days sadly not of much use for a 60 day ski. I guess that is the way they ensure that longer term skiers (= greater risk) take out appropriate insurance. So is the Carte Neige worth it...and what might be the cost for 2 months for two skiers? Any other options?
Still playing with the Citibank debit card. Of course the beauty of this card is that the exchange rate is the bank exchange rate and no other fees either. The catch is that you get the rate on the day, not the rate when you load up the card. That's where a bank account (we cannot get one in Europe) is wunderbar. Again, this cuts our costs when the US.
Will check out the ATM options guys. Thanks.
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FAQ
