@valais2, you sure about Edge and Wax ? I see the website is down along with Bliss Bikes the other shop but FaceBook is still up and no mention either way.
That is a big casualty if true - that said think there was some writing on the wall at the end of the season when I bought some skis at a ludicrous price and thought that at the time was commercial suicide / cash flow issues.
I'll find out more from a man in the know............
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@letsgetpiste, there's a little place in Italy that is not unlike that. Over-development around a one lift, two piste "resort".
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Levi215 wrote:
johnE wrote:
I suspect since joining the EU the cost differential to the Alpine resorts has narrowed to such an extent that it is no longer worth going to Bulgaria for cheep skiing. And the Russians now go to Sloelden and Courcheval.
I must disagree, to my dismay i can't get my group away from going to Bulgaria every year primarily down to cost! It's stupidly cheap compared to Alpine resorts...
My lot believe (and i think they're probably right) that a Ski trip is £1,000-200 per head. Bulgaria can be done for £6-700, which to them is a no brainer. As a group we range between 27 and 44, couple of children but it really boils down to desire. People want to spend that kind of money on other summer holidays. One girl put it that she could go to the caribbean for 2 weeks for the price of a ski holiday and she's right she could. It's just about where you're willing to put your money.
I don't think they are necessarily right at all.
Even traveling solo, using TO (usually Crystal, sometimes Nielson), I have never yet had the total cost (including ski carriage, lift passes, what I spend on the mountain, car parking at the UK airport, basically everything) come to more than about £800 going to Austria. The actual TO package (flights, ski carriage, transfers, half board hotel) has only once been over £500, this year was £460.
Admittedly, that is travleing early January, which is very much low season - if you are stuck with something closer to peak season, then they will be closer to being right.
I don't know anything about either Edge and Wax or Bliss Bikes but I do know the bike industry is booming, is a 12 month business and many are thriving in that space. Maybe the ski business dragged the bike business down too.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
alex_heney wrote:
Levi215 wrote:
johnE wrote:
I suspect since joining the EU the cost differential to the Alpine resorts has narrowed to such an extent that it is no longer worth going to Bulgaria for cheep skiing. And the Russians now go to Sloelden and Courcheval.
I must disagree, to my dismay i can't get my group away from going to Bulgaria every year primarily down to cost! It's stupidly cheap compared to Alpine resorts...
My lot believe (and i think they're probably right) that a Ski trip is £1,000-200 per head. Bulgaria can be done for £6-700, which to them is a no brainer. As a group we range between 27 and 44, couple of children but it really boils down to desire. People want to spend that kind of money on other summer holidays. One girl put it that she could go to the caribbean for 2 weeks for the price of a ski holiday and she's right she could. It's just about where you're willing to put your money.
I don't think they are necessarily right at all.
Even traveling solo, using TO (usually Crystal, sometimes Nielson), I have never yet had the total cost (including ski carriage, lift passes, what I spend on the mountain, car parking at the UK airport, basically everything) come to more than about £800 going to Austria. The actual TO package (flights, ski carriage, transfers, half board hotel) has only once been over £500, this year was £460.
Admittedly, that is traveling early January, which is very much low season - if you are stuck with something closer to peak season, then they will be closer to being right.
We haven't discussed expectations vs reality about what you can get in one place or the other... The trip with the guys which involves going to the pub at 5 and leaving at 11 having had several good feeds costs £20-30 in Europe it'd be closer to £60 i would imagine, if not £80. Don't get me wrong i'm not one of those who says 'wo is me Europe (France) is soooo Expensive' but i've struggled to get equivalence for the kinds of figures you're talking about. One of the key things is you can make Bulgaria as cheap as you want by everyone mixing accommodation and then eating out every night. A large meal with drinks will be again £15-25, do that in the Alpine regions and i think you'll be struggling. As a result to make it cheaper you need to all stay and eat in, which means the same place which means lowest common denominator which no-one is willing to pay for.
@valais2, you sure about Edge and Wax ? I see the website is down along with Bliss Bikes the other shop but FaceBook is still up and no mention either way.
That is a big casualty if true - that said think there was some writing on the wall at the end of the season when I bought some skis at a ludicrous price and thought that at the time was commercial suicide / cash flow issues.
I'll find out more from a man in the know............
There were certainly google reviews - and responses from the owner only 3 weeks ago.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Just heard from a mate who is one of the big ski distributors and he confirmed he went "pop" a couple of weeks ago.
The bike business he had was really not that serious a player in this part of the world but as we know he was one of the top UK ski retailers and had probably had one of the best Online shops and CRM systems - but he just couldn't match the pricing of the big European Online outfits.
Oh well maybe he'll now be able to get out and actually "do" what he told people he did (not).
After all it is free
After all it is free
Weathercam wrote:
The bike business he had was really not that serious a player in this part of the world but as we know he was one of the top UK ski retailers and had probably had one of the best Online shops and CRM systems - but he just couldn't match the pricing of the big European Online outfits.
Maybe the mistake was trying to be a UK Conrad without the volume of business that you need in order to be able to operate on tiny margins. Amazon/direct sales will ultimately take over sports retail in the UK except for boot fitting and servicing. So your tennis racket stringers and binding mounters still have a role
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Ski holidays have always been expensive. But there seems no doubt that more people could afford them now than at most times (any time, probably) in the past. Whether that's their priority is another matter. From observation I'd say many are prioritising expensive house renovations over holidays. To me that's crazy, but young friends of my daughter with huge incomes are spending it all on creating mansions.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
^
I think the images of abandoned lifts around Cervinia are a bit misleading as they've been replaced by more modern lifts servicing much the same terrain.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@dogwatch, apologies ... didn't note that it was in the area of new installations on that side of the hill.
The Colorado resorts there are hardly resorts - often they are just a local town bunny hill or rope tow and many are still in use for sledging or sledding or kids initial learning (self uplift) e.g. if you go to Vail you can easily ski Meadow Mountain if the $175 day ticket price for uplift puts you off , nice big free parking lot at the bottom right by I 70 - just watch out for the fat bikes.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Levi215, We got a catered chalet in Alpe d'huez this year at £415 per head (including equipment surcharge) , add in 200 for the lift pass and 30 for an evening out on the chalet staffs' day off and the trip comes in at under £650 per person and this inlcudes more wine than could drink. Once upon a time Bulgaria would be half the price on the Alps.
I actually end up spending more on my summer holidays than during the winter once hut charges, hotels iin the valley etc are all added up.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@johnE, be very interested to know how you did that... everything i've looked at is almost always over 1k pp (granted i'm ignoring the low end accommodation) but then again i'm correlating standard, no doubt you could go 2* in Tignes for the same price as 4.5* in Bulgaria..
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
no doubt you could go 2* in Tignes for the same price as 4.5* in Bulgaria..
but what does that really mean? Tignes is a 5* destination, Bulgaria isn't. A holiday in a basic apartment in Tignes would offer better value, IMV, than a so-called "top class hotel" in Bulgaria. Apples and pears.
The deal quoted by @johnE might have been a last minute special - not really possible for groups who want everything fixed up in advance.
Maybe you should start holidaying with a different crowd, @Levi215?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@pam w, it's primarily focussed on the level and standard of accommodation, it's difficult to compare certain accommodation but Hotels are reasonably straight forward. The Skiing in Tignes certainly is excellent but that does mean costs are high for things which shouldn't be expensive (thinking on mountain refreshments / nibbles).
Trying to get a group of 8-12 organised is like herding cats, so a last minute is a challenge. Particularly when the 8-12 are 4-6 couples not 2 families of 4 or 6. Different crowd, yep good suggestion, but one can't just select new friends based on where they want to go Skiing! (sadly ;p )
it's primarily focussed on the level and standard of accommodation
yes, I realise that, but for me that's the least important aspect of a ski holiday and in fact I dislike hotels, which for me are places you get paid to stay in when working away from home! But the company is an important aspect - so I wasn't really suggesting you ditch your friends!
The friends of my daughter I referred to above spent over £750K on a (perfectly nice) house then spent several years and huge amounts of money having some major, and very stressful, renovations done. They could have had a couple of ski holidays a year during that time and not even dented the budget for the building, which was hugely stressful and took the entire first two years of their kids' lives.
People are, similarly, spending the cost of a decade of ski holidays on their weddings. In my day loads of my friends lived in fairly ordinary houses with hand-me-down furniture and had pretty basic weddings but did a lot of climbing/sailing/skiing/lounging on beaches holidays.
Times have changed, but IMV it's not about affordability.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Levi215, I've been on 6 ski trips now, not one of them has cost as much as £1000pp...except maybe the EoSB but it wouldn't have been much different. I include virtually everything I need from leaving my front door to getting back in those figures, so it conisders airport parking, flights, transfers etc etc. It's all down to what you want to compromise on. Personally I've gone for location and compromised on quality of accommodation or time of year, if it's hotels that are important to you then you either need to go to a cheaper resort or at low season. Likewise if you want to go at half term or New Year then you have to make a choice on resort or quality of hotel.
Agree that larger groups are difficult to get together, especially in striking the balance of compromise, but you can also benefit from splitting cost on some things. I spent Christmas week in La Tania in an apartment with 2 beds and 2 sofa beds, but paid for it all myself. If I'd had 3 more idiots to go with me then it would have been at least a hundred quid cheaper for me (Crystal building so not exactly luxury). Likewise if I'm going on my own then there's no way I can consider hiring a car as it'll hike the cost up unless I can split hire/fuel/tolls with someone.
Also you can choose new friends based on where they want to ski, it's called snowHeads A bash is a great way to ski/eat/drink withfriendly people
@johnE, be very interested to know how you did that
Crystal, a latish deal for 4 people, people who booked after us got the trip for under £400. It was a simple catered chalet, big rooms, comfortable beds, nice food, good skiing (much better than Bulgaria). I am not sure what more you could want. Like @pam w, I dislike hotels for exactly the same reasons and I have stayed in plenty of upmarket hotels in Bulgaria (a long time ago) and much prefer a small chalet or an apartment. But then everyone to their tastes.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Dave of the Marmottes, ...this sounds as if you are as keen on the tiny places as I am...I'm quite into day excursions to bonkers one-lift villages with someone sheltering from the snow in a small wooden shed, collecting 10chf for a days' up and down. There are then loads of two and three lift places - little gems....such as
but I also read the research on the 175 tiny places which did exist in Colorado in the 50s and 60s and which closed in the cold winds of the 70s and 80s - people had invested, it all seemed viable, and then it all went to hell in a handcart as the slim margins disappeared to less than nothing. And it seems that this may well be happening again - not a collapse, but a re-structuring...
After all it is free
After all it is free
pam w wrote:
Times have changed, but IMV it's not about affordability.
You're right it's about the choice of where the money goes... and those guts I go with choose not to spend more in other locations. It's just what it is
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
[quote="johnE]I dislike hotels for exactly the same reasons and I have stayed in plenty of upmarket hotels in Bulgaria (a long time ago) and much prefer a small chalet or an apartment. But then everyone to their tastes.[/quote]
Don't get me wrong, I'm not up for sacrificing the skiing aspect for a better hotel, to me if a trip was to be dropped it would be that one. I just need reasons / evidence to prove its possible to do, that said I doubt I'll try next year too much hassle
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
pam w wrote:
People are, similarly, spending the cost of a decade of ski holidays on their weddings.
They do, including people with pretty ordinary incomes, with parent with far from unlimited funds that might be better directed on a deposit on a house. It baffles me. I think we spent a few £100 on our wedding and it was lovely.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
dogwatch wrote:
pam w wrote:
People are, similarly, spending the cost of a decade of ski holidays on their weddings.
They do, including people with pretty ordinary incomes, with parent with far from unlimited funds that might be better directed on a deposit on a house. It baffles me. I think we spent a few £100 on our wedding and it was lovely.
A few hundred quid... luxury.
For us it was a two bob six marriage license and a hotel in skegness!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
My other interest is dinghy sailing ... There are lots of parallels ...
There is a void of virtual non participation between 18 - 40, loads of youngsters in organised training and loads of 50+ with disposable income and a desire to make the most while they have good physical health.
Both of these active groups are probably best served my snow sure mega resorts, and those that have failed to foresee the future will go by the wayside. Much the same is happening with sailing clubs, where there is a higher expectation with regard to facilities, organisation and venue, the small old style clubs struggle.
In retail the local chandler is really struggling and often provides the "service" only to see the mail order guys get the deal. There is a lot of consolidation in mail order, and since nobody in government is going to control sports retail, mail order is rapidly heading to a duopoly. This is sad in my opinion, since the retailers had an active part in promoting the sport ... I can see the same applying to the ski retailers.
I.M.O. University fees and Increased Weekend working are the main reasons for why thre 18-40's cannot commit to participating regularly in sailing and probably skiing.
Personally I think the pursuit of Keynesianism has a great deal to answer ... It may lead to great efficiencies but not always to a better quality of life, unless you are at the top of the pile.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@davidof, How much were you paid to go to Skeggie?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Levi215 wrote:
I must disagree, to my dismay i can't get my group away from going to Bulgaria every year primarily down to cost! It's stupidly cheap compared to Alpine resorts...
My lot believe (and i think they're probably right) that a Ski trip is £1,000-200 per head. Bulgaria can be done for £6-700, which to them is a no brainer. As a group we range between 27 and 44, couple of children but it really boils down to desire. People want to spend that kind of money on other summer holidays. One girl put it that she could go to the caribbean for 2 weeks for the price of a ski holiday and she's right she could. It's just about where you're willing to put your money.
We go to Austria in Feb Half term for £600 per head, inc. Hire, passes, self-catering accommodation, travel costs, lessons for kids, insurance.
Try to persuade them to branch out!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
DavidYacht wrote:
My other interest is dinghy sailing ... There are lots of parallels ...
There is a void of virtual non participation between 18 - 40, loads of youngsters in organised training and loads of 50+ with disposable income and a desire to make the most while they have good physical health.
I think you're highlighting a problem with people adopting skiing or sailing as a sport or regular activity. I tried sailing and dinghies multiple times between the ages of 18 & 40 but a) I found it bafflingly cliquey and b) ultimately decided it was largely tedious monotony and admin (prep and putting away) with the odd rare thrill of actually sailing at speed. My brother went a stage further and bought a share in a dinghy which soon became unused. Compared to say jumping on a bike it is an order of magnitude more faff and still subject to vagaries of weather.
I can see the same with skiing - it involves a hell of a lot of faffing, specialist kit and its cold you are exposed to the elements and as a beginner you can't figure out why these other people can do it efffortlessly etc. At least skiing as the advantage of being a "holiday" and something people tend to take their mates along with for the first time.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
On a related theme to expenditure and priorities, there was an article last week in a motoring mag by a young house journalist imploring the government to introduce a Help to Buy scheme for cars (in addition to houses - which is a completely different issue), his point was that buying a first car taxing it and insuring it was wayyy to expensive. I did a quick check and the costs of running my first banger in the early 80s were broadly the same as today having taken inflation into account. I don't expect my reply to be published but I suggested that expenditure priorities need to be assessed:
You don't need a new smart phone every year.
Gents boxers were five for a tenner at the millennium, paying £25 a pair just to have Calvin and Gabbana 2 inches above his pride and joy might not be money well spent.
Buy a jar of instant and a kettle instead of being a slave to Cafebucks.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Dave of the Marmottes, I agree with much of what you say, and yet the reality is that the kit you need to buy for skiing is pretty minimal (goggles, jacket, salopettes, gloves) and as we all know it is pretty unusual to get cold.
I think it's a general failing of the affleunt West that we seem to think you can't do anything without massive amounts of kit and we become more focused on the kit than on the activity itself.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
My point is that lack of available time and the cost of housing and student loans conspires against the 18-40's to invest time and effort into any sport that requires commitment.
I fully accept that there is no requirement to invest in ski hardware, but there is no escaping that a ski holiday is not cheap, even though there may be ways to economise.
Also the aspirational skier has been marketed the concept of the technical gear and the mega resorts as the way to do it, and once you have, it is hard to step back.
Interestingly I hired a bike in Mallorca last week, £ 2,500 of carbon for £ 30/day ... made me reflect on the cost of ski hire!
If the sales and availability of high-tech outdoor gear is anything to go by, the entire population ought to be out bivouacking on the fells or sailing high performance dinghies. There has certainly been a big escalation of standard of hardware in outdoor hobbies. The cruiser of choice in our sailing club is now a Hallberg-Rassy - and not small ones, either, whereas 40 years ago it was probably a Westerly Centaur. We have loads of dinghy sailors between 18 - 40 and we (I use the pronoun loosely, it's no thanks to me) regularly win Chichester Harbour's Fed week (now called something else, which I've forgotten). Last week I watched the superb ballet of two men on a fast planing dinghy, keeping it flat in flukey winds, weaving through the obstacles in their path. They must have been in their 20s or 30s and were at the top of their game - quite possibly national sailors.
But practically everybody out there is on a high performance planing dinghy with an asymmetric spinnaker. They're not sailing Mirrors, Wayfarers, etc. And they're all kitted up to the 9s.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
dogwatch wrote:
pam w wrote:
People are, similarly, spending the cost of a decade of ski holidays on their weddings.
They do, including people with pretty ordinary incomes, with parent with far from unlimited funds that might be better directed on a deposit on a house. It baffles me. I think we spent a few £100 on our wedding and it was lovely.
My old man maintains that his wedding was "the best £25 I ever spent", although he did tag it on the back of a surfing holiday to Barbados.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I think most sports have a low particiption rate between the 20s and 40s. Thinking of the activities I do, the only one that appears to attract that age group is indoor climbing, which appears to have a mix across all age groups and sexes from young children to one or two older women. I suspect part of the appeal lies in the fact you need very little equipment and what you do need can be hired. You do not have to go at any particular time or do much organising to participate, which must help.
What does amaze me however is the number of adults who bring their children along to an activity and even though there is the facility for them to take part as well will just sit and watch. I just don't get it.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@johnE, not sure that's true. I'm in that group and used to play 6 aside football where almost all were similar age range. Likewise the people I know that do mountain biking, skiing, surfing etc. are all in the same 20-40 bracket. What I would say is that it seems a common 'sport' which people of those ages seem to do is running or just going to the gym.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
johnE wrote:
@davidof, How much were you paid to go to Skeggie?
Not enough. Even the advertising with the psychotic gay fisherman and they bye-line screaming at you that it is "so bracing" (aka very very cold and windy) is enough to put all but the most foolhardy, or illiterate, off a casual visit.
but back on topic... The Rhone-Alpes are planning on spending 200 million euros on snowmaking, they want to cover 2/3 of runs with artificial snow as in Austria and alpe d'Huez plans a 350 million euro investment including the fabled link to les Deux Alps (don't get too excited, a lot of you will be too old for skiing by the time it opens).
Some old rumour and analysis about the link here: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=117664
The idea would be to get planning requests done by 2019 with probably completion some time in the middle of the next decade.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
A bash is a great way to ski/eat/drink with
