 Poster: A snowHead
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@skimottaret, I've always assumed that your required DIN should be around the mid-range of your binding. Whilst I'm sure that the ISO standards are well applied by the manufactures today, from an engineering perspective, I have more confidence in it operating as designed in the mid-range rather than at either end of its max or min setting. So yes, if you ski on 10, and binding that went from 5-15 would be ideal IMO.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Haggis_Trap, Looking at that link, and the pin setting formula, it's interesting the effect of age on the setting level. If all other parameters are left the same, it stays constant for each decade from 20 to 40, then drops by 1.5 from 40 to 50.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| RichClark wrote: |
| @skimottaret, I've always assumed that your required DIN should be around the mid-range of your binding. Whilst I'm sure that the ISO standards are well applied by the manufactures today, from an engineering perspective, I have more confidence in it operating as designed in the mid-range rather than at either end of its max or min setting. So yes, if you ski on 10, and binding that went from 5-15 would be ideal IMO. |
I've tested hundreds of bindings of all makes/models & have never seen a loss of consistency/accuracy when they're at the extremes of the din range. With modern bindings/springs there's no requirement to run 'em at their mid setting.
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@spyderjon, okay but would you say the higher cost higher DIN versions are more consistent typically?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@spyderjon, Thanks, that's good to know especially as I'm in the market for some new skis & bindings.
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I've also noticed I can run some bindings lower than others. Eg rossi race bindings on GS skis have been fine so far at 8.5 including racing (not very well) and same bindings on a rec. ski have been fine at 8, while the axium tpx has pre released at the heel a few times using those values on another rec. ski.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| @spyderjon, I have two pairs of identical GS skis only difference is being binders, one set is rated up to 12 the other 15 with metal toe pieces and I had 4 "pre releases" on the lower din binders and never on the better bindings (both set the same DIN). I recon the higher rated binders have more elasticity and are just better designed..... |
Agreed.
The elasticity of a binding has a big effect on its performance & therefore its safety. Bindings with limited travel (usually lower end models but not always) do not give the skier the time needed to recover when things get a out of shape, basically you're either in or out, so you end up with a pre release, ie the binding released whilst the skier still had reasonable control. The solution to this is to up the din setting - which could end with you having too high a setting when it really matters like a slow speed fall. Whereas a binding with greater elasticity/travel will give you more time to recover balance etc & then re-centre etc.
Unfortunately most binding manufacturers only put their best features/functionality on their high din models which is a real shame. And to make it harder for the consumer the lower spec models look pretty much identical to the higher spec models but the materials, torsional stiffness & elasticity etc is quite different. The reason I'm a big fan of the Free range of alpine bindings from Vist is that you get the exact same binding whether you choose the 3-11, 4-12, 6-14, 8-16 or 10-18 versions. The same goes for the Beast/Rad 2 tech bindings which also have a lot more elasticity due their rotary toes. Like many of my Beast customers, I run mine a din lower than my old Baron setting.
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@balernoStu, I have AXIAL³ 120 ROCKERFLEX on hero masters and they have released more than a few times but the 150's with solid toe piece on the Dynastar equivalent ski is rock solid... get what you pay for I guess.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| @spyderjon, okay but would you say the higher cost higher DIN versions are more consistent typically? |
Not necessarily, it depends upon the make/model. All bindings, to obtain din certification, have to have a minimum level of consistency but, like in most mechanical items, tighter tolerances & better materials etc lead to better/smoother/consistent function etc.
From my observations the torsional stiffness of a binding is really important too. It's disconcerting when you see how some bindings can flex/twist in the torque machine when being tested - and any flex at the toe means that the toe wings are gripping the boot lug against the AFD thus affecting the release. And it's common to see the exact same toe binding used say a 10, 12 & even 14 din model.
Durability is also important. There's a very popular heel binding on the market that develops a large amount of lateral play very quickly which doesn't effect its vertical release at all but will allow the boot to twist thus affecting the toe release.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Re : Tech Bindings vs Alpine.
Alpine bindings release from the toe.
In general this can protect against leg breaks.
... but can lead to more ACL type injuries.
Tech binding release at the rotating heel.
In general this can protect against ACL injury.
... but can leads to more broken legs.
Something I thought interesting : more below from Wildsnow.
https://www.wildsnow.com/15123/tech-binding-release-testing-acl-broken-leg/ |
I'm wondering what impact (if any) this has on the respective merits of the Vipec vs Dynafit Radical 2.0 toe release?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@On the rocks, the Vipec, with it's lateral release at the toe is very similar to an alpine binding but not quite as it's lateral release is straight across whereas the lateral release on an alpine toe allows for a rotary release. However, I'd say that the Vipec is an improvement on the fixed in line toes of traditional tech bindings with respect to mitigating tib/fib issues but I'd rather have a traditional tech heel for ACL/MCL protection.
The Dynafit Beasts & Rad 2's are totally different to the tech bindings used in the Wildsnow test due to their rotary toes. Their lateral release is still in the heel like traditional tech bindings but the rotary toes not only provide elasticity but, IMO, also reduced the load on the tib/fib as they allow the leg to swivel & buy the time the toe has reached the limit of it's rotation the heel will have already released. So for me the Beasts/Rad 2's give the best of both worlds.
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Just recalled a good tip I had from a race tech on pre releases. He said some pre releases were due to people setting up the toe pressure at room temperature. When it is very cold the boot contracts more than the ski does and causes insufficient toe pressure and you should double check toe pressure on the hill when the skis and boots have stabilised in temperature. I haven't done this myself but will do this coming season and will probably also invest in some better bindings as well as going down a notch on my DIN's
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| Note that comparisons between din settings, even when ht/wt/skier type is stated, is meaningless without the boot sole length which can make a big difference. |
That makes sense...although not really thought of it before.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@skimottaret, thanks, so for an experienced skier at 50+ use one line up from a younger skier of otherwise similar attributes. Makes sense.
On fwd pressure settings I have seen a good few skis with it set too light, quite clear on the Rossis with the notch on the adjustor sticking out. Never considered it changing with temperature though!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
| @spyderjon, good points. I think talking about din settings on alpine bindings and release settings on tech bindings are completely different topics, although tech bindings do seem to be getting better |
Agreed re the older model true outright tech touring bindings but the latest freeride touring Beast, Rad 2 & Kingpin tech bindings are TUV din certified so no different at all re the din/torques required to release etc.. |
Maybe I'm being daft, but does the Kingpin have a lateral release at the heel like other tech bindings ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@balernoStu, yes.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@clarky999, glad to hear it, looks a nice binding. A friend was using them on the one tour I managed to fit in this season, while I lugged Barons round for the day (on DIN 7 fwiw in this discussion).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, The tech guys at Salomon disagree with you, they have set mine up and normally go over 12, there is a reason the sth 16 is a big seller, with free ride and freestyle guys, but I guess the designers and experts are wrong and internet info is correct. @moseyp, I have seen his skis and Dider Cuche, in the flesh and both had them set above 20, for DH training. |
Well you either see wrong, or you are not telling truth... or you have never seen those skis and you are one of those "internet I know everything, even though I have never seen anything myself" guys  Tyrolia RD bindings (that's what Head, Fischer and Elan use) are either 16 (for tech) or 20 (for speed), so it's kinda impossible to get them over 20 And racers use those bindings not some custom developed stuff... well those RD bindings are basically "custom developed stuff" as you don't get them in shop anyway.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Must admit, @primoz, that I find it difficult enough to see what my kit's set on never mind getting close enough to anyone else's... 
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@under a new name, and that anyone else is Bode!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Fattes13, not that I would understand what you wanted to tell, but fact is, it's simply impossible to have Tyrolia bindings set above 20 I have seen Bode's skis, and I actually skied then in past. I have been using Tryrolia race bindings (stuff that WC guys get, not something else) for long time, so I actually know how far up they can go. And it's pretty much irrelevant what kind of custom designed father Hirscher has (whatever that would mean anyway). Hirscher is on Marker not on Tyrolia and Marker has different scale of marking then Tyrolia, which both Bode and Cuche were using. And again, Tyrolia speed binding for World cup was FF 20 RD which had max DIN 20, not 21, not 23, not 28 but 20, so in best case they had it set to 20 (can't say for Cuche, but I'm sure Bode didn't have it set to 20) and not above 20.
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@primoz, Bode skis 18 for DH, he's said it before in interviews and you can occasionally see his DINs in some very HR photos. No idea what Didier Cuche is on but the point I was making earlier is that people do tend to exaggerate because they think DINs are a measure of skill. I like to err on the side of caution for the sake of a few pre-releases (but then I'm a horrendously bad skier)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@primoz, He is on Marker because atomic refused to make what he wanted! Made by marker, branded Atomic
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Interesting on the foreward pressure / temp issue.
As I have posted before I always set my bindings lower than I think I will end up using, and then adjust upwards if I get too many pre releases. However, it also depends on the skis. I am 76kg and can ski on one all mountain set up at 9, the other fatter skis at 9.5 and my slalom skis at 10.5 but on an older ex race binding that still seems to release well at that setting. If I drop my fat skis, which are longer, down to 9 then I still get a few too many releases for my piece of mind, even half a DIN setting makes the difference there. I am not the most delicate of skiers and am still trying to improve my technique so in future I am prepared to lower them.
As mentioned above, every binding seems to be slightly different in how they release and age and wear may also play a factor. I use the Guardian / Tracker binding on my fatter skis, combined with 3 different boots depending on what I am doing. One thing I do is use a feeler gauge and properly check the binding height adjust between the boots as with the older spec non moving AFD this seems pretty important.
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A chap in the same chalet as me in April broke his tibia in 4 places. His din was over 9. About 80kg and 6ft. His skis did not release. For a recreational skier that is too high in my opinion. Mine are about 6.5-7. I am shorter and lighter. I am surprised at some of the settings being expressed here. Unless you are very big or highly trained I think you are asking for trouble.
I do not know about Bode Miller's setting but stayed in the same hotel as the US team before the Lauberhorn a few years ago. The standard setting for the GS or DH chaps was around 20 on bindings with a 16-24 range.
My knees are in a poor state so I keep my speed down. With the low setting above my skis come off when they should but do not pre-release.
The length of your boot comes into the determination of your setting I have been told.
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FAQ
So, we have a combination of speed, mass and inertia that really likes to bite back when things go titsup.
