 Poster: A snowHead
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Skiing is no longer cool. Hipsters just don't do it.
Like golf and Marks and Spencer, skiing has targeted affluent baby boomers - a demographic who have loads of ready cash to splurge on expensive in-resort extras. Resorts have focused on luxury property development, posh restaurants and plush facilities. Value for money and creating a cool vibe have not really been a major feature - hence the drive to regulate chalet holidays, for example.
But no year old 18 wants to be surrounded by rich 50 year olds when they're on holiday. So skiers are retiring with arthritis and middle age spread faster than youngsters are taking up the sport.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
It is notable that TUI are selling off their 2 or 3 school trip ski co's. Having purchased them in a flurry of pr speak press releases about making skiing more accessible for schools through lower pricing because of Tui's purchasing power etc etc
Obviously it was just PR speak perhaps.... |
I think their sale is just incidental to the new German CEO's 'corporate policy' since Peter Long left.
The background explaining the sale of SHG by TUI is summarised here: http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?news_id=2022085
Basically, the brands that weren't using TUI flights and IT (ie. most of SHG) were put on the 'dump' list.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is demographic decline a part of the reason in Europe? I don't think the middle classes are breeding at replacement rate in any West European country. I suspect many of us boomers got into skiing big-time as a way of getting high-quality, healthful family fun.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| But no year old 18 wants to be surrounded by rich 50 year olds when they're on holiday. |
They seem willing enough when the bank of mum and dad is paying for their holiday or subsidising their season. I don't think it's those rich 50 year olds who are staggering around the streets of Val d'Isere in the pre-dawn hours.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Jonny Jones, I think you have hit the nail on the head with your M&S analogy. On my last trip I noticed the large number of exactly that group of people. Cool was not the word to describe the people, but on the other hand they were having a good time and economically much better go the local economy.
It was New Year so maybe cost was s factor.
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IME, people in their 20s and early 30s are saving for house deposits and things like ski holidays are quick to fall off the priority list, especially if they aren't really winter sports aficionados but holidaymakers. The whole "more expendable income nowadays" is rubbish when taking the price of housing into account.
I think skiing (snowboarding maybe less so) is still seen as cool by the youf. You only have to see how popular viral videos such as Candide's are.
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Interesting debate. Cost is no doubt part of it - the decline of the middle class and aspirant middle class demographic - there is little doubt for certain sections of society real wages have gone nowhere for a long time but house prices, rents etc have increased.
and then there was a much wider tho' reducing range of short haul winter holiday option at far lower costs when the Red Sea, Tunisia etc were accessible - the Canaries still are with far more flights etc and £ for £ people can get more holidays for the same budget - so cost does enter into it as well and the perception that people are being ripped off in certain ski resorts adds to an anti ski feeling I think.
But also people are more risk averse, accidents get more publicity, and from my limited experience of skiing a few people ski recklessly more than they used to. It is actually that factor that is making me think twice approaching 60 about skiing again - hit by a 12ish year old snowboarder this year from behind - people coming on piste from nowhere and never checking what is going on - extreme speed and taking air over blind drops. Yes, I know on piste issues are rare and most deaths are way off piste but the Snail and others report them and that influences non but potential skier views.
Incidentally is there really any evidences that accidents have increased - I know insurance premiums have gone up but that might be cost of incidents increasing, profit raking or a reflection of an actual increase in the injury frequency rate?
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| leggyblonde wrote: |
| IME, people in their 20s and early 30s are saving for house deposits and things like ski holidays are quick to fall off the priority list, especially if they aren't really winter sports aficionados but holidaymakers. The whole "more expendable income nowadays" is rubbish when taking the price of housing into account. |
Housing, student loans and the trend towards internships i.e. come and work for us for little or nothing while we decide how much we like you.
My main sport is sailing and there are plenty of youth and boomers sailing whereas 25-40s are an endangered species. Moreover that seems to be a worldwide trend. I think that's far more about money than what may or may not be cool. Similar on the slopes I think though perhaps less of an extreme trend.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| countryman wrote: |
| Incidentally is there really any evidences that accidents have increased |
Overall injuries have decreased. There don't appear to be any statistics on collisions but plenty here believe they are increasing, of whom I am one.
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'Norway - Skier visits up (unspecified) after a few flat seasons.'
I wonder what most of us are missing in Norway?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Have insurance premiums increased much in real terms? That's not my impression but I have no data.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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'if the industry doesn't figure out how to turn the "tedious learning process into a great time" it will fail to capture the interest of young potential skiers and snowboarders.'
I remember the learning process being great fun. Challenging, with some disappointments and setbacks, but still great fun. Do beginners tend to expect it all to be easy these days 
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You know it makes sense.
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I suspect the skiing industry has stood still for a few years. With countries like France, for example, investing massively in infrastructure, developing some mega-resorts to attract the mass market, one can't afford to stand still when it comes to retaining snow sports enthusiasts and attracting the next generation(s). Tastes and demographics change. Economics change. Access to much wider ranges of activities has become easier, and possibly cheaper.
Chuck in the oft repeated cynical view that once on the mountain you can expect to get fleeced (and in many cases that may well be true) by businesses that are only eager to take you hard earned money and see the back of you, and its not hard to understand why some may well be turning away from snow sports.
Or perhaps cheaper package holidays in cramped, over-hyped accommodations with sub-standard fayre, in areas catering to the masses who have to fork out large sums to access the mega slopes, never mind feed and water themselves are moving out of fashion. Nothing is permanent and everything tends to be cyclical.
Maybe a fresh approach is all that is needed.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
My main sport is sailing and there are plenty of youth and boomers sailing whereas 25-40s are an endangered species. Moreover that seems to be a worldwide trend. I think that's far more about money than what may or may not be cool. Similar on the slopes I think though perhaps less of an extreme trend.
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I wonder if this is the heart of it.
Recently I started playing tennis again after decade(s) away. I'm 45 and I was one of the youngest at the club night. THere are plenty of teens then its 50+. I hear similar stories about cricket. The engine of the clubs used to be people in their 30s who had a bit of financial security, who had got passed sleepless nights with babies and were ready to take on roles in the community. Today, a lot of those people are just starting families, trying to pay for huge mortgages, are probably both working and don't have spare time or money.
I wonder of that is the problem - a lot of people in their late 20s and 30s are too pressed for skiing holidays?
These trends probably don't apply as much in continental Europe but will to a large extent.
On a related topic, can we put to bed the issue of pistes getting more crowded now?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
can we put to bed the issue of pistes getting more crowded now
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Than what will we witter on about?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Other than making participation in snowHeads compulsory, anyone have any thoughts on what the wintersports industry could/should do to halt the decline in numbers participating?
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getting back to Rob's question, not sure if we are the people to ask. I mean, I suspect most of us were hooked at our first taste.
We've had a few total or almost total beginners come skiing with us. We've also had a few people who like it but don't love it and come along for the family when they'd probably prefer a beach. I guess any suggestions come from that direction.
Opinions differ but I do think a little practice and instruction in the UK first really helps beginners to approach their first day in ski school with confidence and that really helps them get off to a good start. A day spent struggling at the "bottom of the class" in bad weather can kill enthusiasm.
Many of us get take skiing for the first time by experienced friends and family. We did that with my sisters family recently. My BiL was really grateful for all our help and advice about seemingly trivial stuff - ski hire, booking lessons, what to wear each day, getting around - never mind skiing itself. Made me think that it must be quite daunting to a family who is wondering about a skiing holiday but has no one to take them? Does anyone target them with holiday packages / groups of similar families?
Younger is better - learn quicker, less worried about falling, get them hooked. Try to find affordable routes for schools, universities, early 20s - I know these things have been done for years but they need to keep happening with a view of "how do we make this cheaper?".
For the less keen who can kill family holidays if they are not catered for - got to make it as easy as possible to dip in and out during a ski day so logistics around gear storage, ski in ski out, really easy buses, comfortable attractive bars at main lift stations, spas etc
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There was a huge uptake in people playing hockey when Britain won the gold at the Olympics back in 80s - then numbers tailed off
There was a huge uptake in cycling with Sky/Wiggo/2012 Olympics - this seems to be tailing off now
For numerous reasons skiing is also seeing a decline
It's hardly surprising - like fashion things come and go out of favour
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Poor snow early-ish in the season won't have helped. I skipped the BB having been on artificial snow throughout the Dolomites area during the preBB ... so in a tiny way I didn't help the trend. Let's hope for better conditions next year.
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I think it is just the Cost of Skiing/Snowboarding.
and if you Brits decide to leave the EU it will become a whole hell of a lot more expensive 
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We've sorted a big group (around 20) of people for our trip next year. Primary problem for most was being able to bring a cost-effective trip in for their budgets in the Feb half-term week, as most of the attendees have kids or are travelling with people with kids. Some are novices, some have skied/snowboarded before and are coming back to it after a break of a few years while kids were young. Fact is, a ski trip is bloomin' expensive - yeah I KNOW it can be cheap but frankly, it isn't - we've hacked the costs to the bone for this trip as Always29 pointed out in her thread on this trip but costs soon rack up when you factor in lift passes, teaching, kit hire etc etc.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| We've sorted a big group (around 20) of people for our trip next year. Primary problem for most was being able to bring a cost-effective trip in for their budgets in the Feb half-term week, as most of the attendees have kids or are travelling with people with kids. Some are novices, some have skied/snowboarded before and are coming back to it after a break of a few years while kids were young. Fact is, a ski trip is bloomin' expensive - yeah I KNOW it can be cheap but frankly, it isn't - we've hacked the costs to the bone for this trip as Always29 pointed out in her thread on this trip but costs soon rack up when you factor in lift passes, teaching, kit hire etc etc. |
^ This I think. I know of several people who are keen skiers who just won't entertain skiing while the kids are young because i) they'd rather spend the considerable cash on the house ii) they are worried the kids won't love it which will result in a miserable experience for all and very definitely not VFM.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jedster wrote: |
| On a related topic, can we put to bed the issue of pistes getting more crowded now? |
No. That's more a function of uplift capacity.
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| Boris wrote: |
There was a huge uptake in cycling with Sky/Wiggo/2012 Olympics - this seems to be tailing off now
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Is that so? The 100s who roll past my door on a sunny weekend don't seem to have got the memo.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I wonder of that is the problem - a lot of people in their late 20s and 30s are too pressed for skiing holidays?
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my own sons are over 25 now. They want to come out for Christmas with us, but one of them doesn't think he will be granted the 2 days leave necessary to leave home on the 22nd Dec. So it will probably mean he stays home or has a very short trip the following week.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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There's definitely more than a few factors at play, but here's my $0.02
In regards to school trips, I think this very much depends on the school. Personally I've noticed that my younger sister has been on many more adventurous trips abroad than were offered whilst my and the other sister were at the same school. Whilst there's certainly a cost factor involved in participating on these trips, I don't see it making a massive difference over all. University clubs however may be one place where the issue lies - as students are charged ever more ridiculous amounts, the number of them going on jollies overseas has dropped as people stay back to study and make the most out of their degree. When I was in my first year, the ski trip was nigh on impossible to get on, even as part of the club, with about 4 reserve waiting lists. In my final year (everyone in lower years by this point was paying substantially more than I was) the trip was opened up to just about anyone to fill up spaces, even non students. This has continued to the point that even now, 3 years later, I'm receiving invites to go and make up numbers with the uni club.
Following on from that, people have mentioned the cost involved and the missing demographics (25-30), and it's certainly not something to play down. Many in this age group are opting to splash their cash on getaways that are far cheaper than skiing. It's almost a quantity/quality argument - why would I pay £600 to go skiing for a week when I can get a month (probably two if they're not going with a TO) in Thailand or the like for a couple hundred quid more? For a lot of these travelling types (I did languages so I know a lot of them. Dossers), the appeal of doing nothing in a warm climate working on their Instagame is a lot more appealing than eating pasta for a week in the cold. It's only where people have a passion for it or a lot of money that they go for a ski holiday (Nouveau riche types like my boss and uncle go on ski holidays not because they enjoy it, but because it's expected. Seriously it's like a social milestone. I don't think my uncle even bought a lift pass last time..). Where am I going with this? I'm rambling.
Ah yes, start up costs. It was only a few years ago so I can remember well. I've spunked money up the walls for a lot of hobbies, but getting into snowsports was a real moment of clarity for me. "£200 for a day course? [expletives deleted]" just so that I could get some slope time with my friends on a winter trip? And the gear that I had to buy? And there's limited opportunity to practice in the UK outside of £30 a session fridge trips? And you can't do those fridge trips without learning what you do on the £200 day course? Even if you just tool around at your local dome once a month and don't buy anything, you're looking at £560 for your first year. Do you know how many nights out you could get for that? And in comparison to longboarding, which I did competitively in Europe, it wasn't until I was in my first year racing without a sponsor that I had to spend that much on gear. It's over all an expensive hobby for a generation that's graduating with a hell of a lot of debt (I accrue more interest than loan I pay off every year, thanks student loan company!).
There is another thing that I don't think anyone's mentioned though. My generation (in the 25-30 bracket) don't seem to be able to stick with things as long. We have a short attention span, and by and large people don't have the commitment available for something like snowsports, whether that means sticking with it after the next new and exciting thing™ pops up, or fixating on it as a reason to work all year just for your ski trip.
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| Iamnotacrook wrote: |
| My generation (in the 25-30 bracket) don't seem to be able to stick with things as long. We have a short attention span, and by and large people don't have the commitment |
Possibly don't post this comment on the forum at the same time as looking for a job 
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You know it makes sense.
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Well, @Iamnotacrook, you realise you are a sample size of n=1 so taken as it was meant.
I know rather many 25-30 year olds who are getting very into their skiing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The proportion of the population within younger age groups is also in long turn decline, particularly amongst groups likely to be attracted to skiing. Also there may well be fewer of them now. So with the other key factors discussed above the industry is presumably competing with itself gor market share.
Would be interested to know the market strategies and target audiences of the various resorts.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| miranda wrote: |
| Iamnotacrook wrote: |
| My generation (in the 25-30 bracket) don't seem to be able to stick with things as long. We have a short attention span, and by and large people don't have the commitment |
Possibly don't post this comment on the forum at the same time as looking for a job |
Haha true, perhaps I should have said that it seems that a majority of my generation don't. This is simply what I've noticed from people I went to university with and people who I grew up with on the whole. For every handful of people I know who are drop commitments easily for something else, there are also others like myself and some friends that have stuck to past times religiously, occasionally adding new ones but avoiding neglecting the old ones too. A generalisation to be sure, but it is something I notice. It could also be down to geography/social situation. Or potentially the people I know tend not to put too much on athletic endeavour/physical hobbies and that might be why come to think of it...
| under a new name wrote: |
you realise you are a sample size of n=1 so taken as it was meant.
I know rather many 25-30 year olds who are getting very into their skiing. |
It was an opinion so very much sample n=1. As I mentioned briefly in this post it could be down to many factors. Perhaps the reason I've noticed this and you haven't is down to different localities
| Peter S wrote: |
| The proportion of the population within younger age groups is also in long turn decline |
very good point!
The whole discussion is pretty damn interesting. I might try and dig through some skate/surf information I have from the previous year or two to see how much it is a snow problem, and how much is an action sports problem. Relatively similar industries and demographics I reckon, could make for a good comparison.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| ...My generation (in the 25-30 bracket) don't seem to be able to stick with things as long. |
Old people always said that when I was in that bracket, but I and all the people I was around were completely obsessed with the stuff we were doing at that age.
I employ people in that age range today and they're huge value mostly because they're easy to interest and they don't tire easily.
Personally I want to see fewer people on the slopes, not more. There's only so much snow to go around, and we don't need more concrete in the mountains.
I like the way people have more money and more options today, and like the fact that the demographic shift is reducing pressure on this sport.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@philwig,
You are old said the youth... as I mentioned before,
And your skis are uncommonly fat
Yet you turned a back somersault on that mogul
Pray what was the reason for that?
?....... I can never quite fathom why todays youth think the older generation are without the experience of youth and the insight of age.
By the use of this ointment
one shilling a box....... 
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| philwig wrote: |
| Quote: |
| ...My generation (in the 25-30 bracket) don't seem to be able to stick with things as long. |
Old people always said that when I was in that bracket, but I and all the people I was around were completely obsessed with the stuff we were doing at that age.
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Being obsessed with what you are doing and remaining obsessed long-term are not the same thing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think we are over-dramatising this. The decline is slight and probably accounted for mostly by the fact that there are so many other options that have become comparatively cheap. As I said before, winter sun used to be the preserve of the very rich. No more.
Other passtimes are now competing for they younger pound too. It could be my imagination but I think the young now spend far more time eating out and clubbing than happened 30 years ago.
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| philwig wrote: |
It's manifest nonsense to suggest that the standard of living hasn't gone up in the last few decades. This stuff is cheaper than it was, not the other way around.
The reason people are doing other things isn't that skiing is too expensive. |
There is still (as there always has been ) a perception that skiing is expensive. Those of us who do it regularly know it isn't all that expensive (though still not a cheap holiday compared to a summer package in the Med), but people who haven't skied much or at all think it is.
And there has also, in the last 10 years or so been "a global economic downturn", with most governments (including our own) imposing austerity measure. Which leads to a feeling that conspicuous consumption is bad, and therefore it is "wrong" to take what are perceived as expensive ski holidays.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
It is notable that TUI are selling off their 2 or 3 school trip ski co's. Having purchased them in a flurry of pr speak press releases about making skiing more accessible for schools through lower pricing because of Tui's purchasing power etc etc
Obviously it was just PR speak perhaps.... |
To be fair, they are selling off all of their specialist or niche brands, not just school skiing (or even just skiing).
In the UK, I think they are dropping to just their 3 main mass-market brand, Thomson, Crystal and First Choice.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Have insurance premiums increased much in real terms? That's not my impression but I have no data. |
For travel (with or without wintersports cover) - Not in my experience.
I am paying no more for my ski trip insurance now than I was 10 years ago, nor do premiums seem to expensive when my wife & I go on long haul holidays.
We don't actually buy insurance for non wintersports holidays in Europe, because we are covered by free insurance from our bank (Nationwide), and that includes the bits of Europe out in teh Atlantic - we were covered for Madeira in February.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
There is ... a perception that skiing is expensive
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In 1998 I reckon my skiing cost £100 / day. I hoped in season 98-99 to get about 35 days in. => £3,500.
A work colleague was talking about relative costs and he had a mate who had just paid £3,500 for a premier league team's season ticket. To sit in the rain and watch grown men play a kiddies game ...
Which is better value?
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^ obviously a subjective question.
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FAQ
