 Poster: A snowHead
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| tarrantd wrote: |
| luigi wrote: |
..... but threatening criminal convictions to parents who want to take their kids skiing is a very authoritarian stance.
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The PCN is NOT a criminal conviction and by paying it you save hundreds of pounds on the cost of your skiing holiday. I don't understand your problem!! Now if you do the same thing with the summer holiday and become a serial offender than of course a prosecution is inevitable.
Don't forget that the impact of lost school days is not just on the child. If they miss the introduction of a new concept then, on return, they may require extra support from a teaching assistant, which is not in the school budget and may impact on the support provided for other less able children.
Just to be clear when my kids were in primary school I took them skiing during term time, always authorised by the school but that was 25+ years ago.
A question for you who is the worse parent - one who takes their child out of school in order to pursue their own hobby or one who despite support, has a child who plays truant for 5 days a term? |
As I understand, if you refuse to pay the PCN on the principle that you are not harming your child (because he has an otherwise exemplary attendance record and is already 2 years ahead of the class average), they could prosecute you and if successful (there were 179 prosecutions for non-payment in Norfolk last year), it would result in a criminal conviction, higher fines and possibly a prison sentence.
Here is the guidance from Bedfordshire on the subject of prosecutions for unauthorised absences... http://www.centralbedfordshire.gov.uk/Images/Leaflet_Court_Action_Parents_tcm6-10885.pdf
The relevant paragraph reads:
Failure to ensure a child’s regular attendance at the school at which he/she is
a registered pupil is a criminal offence under the Education Act 1996. If
convicted under Section 444 (1) of the Act a parent can be fined up to £1000
for each offence. A conviction under Section 444 (1a) – which is the more
serious offence when a parent knowingly allows a child to be absent from
school without authorisation – can lead to a fine of up to £2,500 and/or 3
months in prison. If a parent is prosecuted under Section 444 (1a) he/she will
be formally cautioned and interviewed under the Police and Criminal Evidence
(PACE) Act 1984.
The current regime takes away just about all the discretion that the school previously had to authorise term-time absences...only in 'exceptional circumstances' is the School allowed to authorise an absence...it has been made clear in School literature that a term-time family holiday is not an 'exceptional circumstance'.
Yes, you could pay the PCN and be done with it, but that would be an admission of guilt of the charge.
The regime is what it is and you've got to live with it...doesn't stop those affected railing against the authoritarian nature of it all...and getting annoyed with any that seem to be defending it! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Chickenpox
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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breeze11,
I didn't mean to suggest we'd skied every school holiday week in one year! Our school holiday skiing covered 24 years, during which time, at some point, we skied every school hol week except Christmas.
It's great to ski at different times of the year and other seasons offer a different perspective to winter skiing. All are great in their own way.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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We love Les Deux Alpes for Easter.... 
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@luigi The problem is that everyone thinks that laws only apply to other people and not to them. If the school lets you take your child on a ski trip why can't every other parent take theirs? Just because you think your child's education won't suffer it doesn't mean that's true for every other child but the parents will all demand that they are treated equally.
The standard has been set that 10 unauthorised absences in a 10 week period is unacceptable, you have 2 choices, accept the rule or pay the penalty. Just because you think the rule is wrong doesn't make it so. I understand there is an organisation called "Parents Want a Say" which is fighting the current rules and if I was a parent of little ones I'd support them but only in giving the school back some discretion. That doesn't mean that every request for a week to go skiing should be accepted especially if the only justification is cost.
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| Quote: |
| Which school holiday week do you aim for? |
All three - if we can afford it 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Are the only arguments for wanting to go during term time that it is cheaper and less busy? I mean, kids can have mind-broadening, educational experiences during the holidays too can't they?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Mike-H, schools don't have a choice whether to be a polling station or not. The local authority decide. It becomes one of the school INSET days so the teachers are still working which then means an INSET isn't taken at another point in the year. Every school will have the same number of teaching days (190).
@luigi, how many years can the same/similar trip have a mind broadening, educational value? Once or twice fair enough, but it's a difficult argument to make every year.
@Newbie72, we've been all over at Easter, some low resorts, some high. The highest we've been to ended up being the worst conditions as it was a poor end of season. I would just book close to the time and head wherever looks good then.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Is there any evidence for that "cash cow" argument? On the face of it the administrative costs - all those warning letters etc - would at least equal the relatively modest fine. this topic has been discussed on SHs for some time now and AFAIK nobody has been fined though a number of people have taken some time off (including my son and DiL).
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You know it makes sense.
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| tarrantd wrote: |
| luigi wrote: |
Oh well, it's all OK because you were allowed to take your kids out to go skiing 25 yrs ago...but you think this new draconian criminalisation system is OK for us!?! 
Yes, all I would like is that the discretion to authorise 10 days term -time absence be given back to the School, as was the case a few years ago. They will know best if the particular child will suffer or benefit during the absence, not some minion at the LEA who's been instructed to collect as many fines as possible to plug the gaping hole in the budget.
Secondary Schools used to and still do arrange Ski trips during term-time...so they must have considered them to have educational value.
I don't want to be labelled a criminal for giving my kids an mind-broadening, educational experience.....why don't you get this?  |
In response to your first statement the simple answer is yes in the same way that prior to 1965 you could drive your car at any speed you wanted on a motorway but now there is a 70mph max limit.
The discretion to allow more time for absence has been taken away because the current thinking is that regular loss of a week is detrimental to the education of the child.
A secondary school taking a 1 week ski trip during term time should be engineered to ensure that it's taken without detriment to the child's education although I have doubts about the reality.
If you pay the PCN you won't be labelled a criminal! I personally think that very few skiing holidays are as mind-broadening and educational as you seem to think, and I don't get it because I never saw it in my 4 very well rounded children. |
1. False analogy...there were a lot less cars on the road 50 yrs ago and few could reach 70 mph, let alone exceed it, so there was no need for a speed limit. As roads got busier and cars became more powerful, the need for a speed limit arose. What has changed with kids' educational needs? Are children less able to cope with a week away skiing now as compared to 25 yrs ago...or even a few years ago before the current regime was imposed??
2. So if it has been irrefutably proven that your kids were educationally disadvantaged by your reckless & criminal irresponsibility in taking them skiing in term -time...have you begged their forgiveness yet??
3. So again, it was fine & dandy for you to do it, but schools & parents now shouldn't be? Does your hypocrisy have no bounds??
4. If I disagree with the premise of the fine and refuse to pay it, I will be treated to a criminal prosecution with a maximum sentence of 3 months imprisonment unless some common-sense magistrate throws it out of court, did you not read the previous references??
If I pay the fine, it's an admission of guilt to my kids and the wider community that I am an irresponsible parent who doesn't care about their education, I don't want to be put in that position, you weren't. But it's OK, as long as I'm wealthy enough to pay my penance and fill the coffers of the LEA, I'm absolved of all responsibility.
5. My contention is that I can make them at least as educational as a week in a classroom, possibly a bit more mind-broadening and definitely not detrimental.
BTW, do you work for a LEA??
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
My contention is that I can make them at least as educational as a week in a classroom, possibly a bit more mind-broadening and definitely not detrimental
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Is a week skiing during term time more educational or mind-broadening than a week during the school holidays?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| swiftoid wrote: |
| Quote: |
My contention is that I can make them at least as educational as a week in a classroom, possibly a bit more mind-broadening and definitely not detrimental
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Is a week skiing during term time more educational or mind-broadening than a week during the school holidays? |
If it's the difference between being able to afford a family ski holiday or not, I'd at least like the option to broaden their minds in term-time. 
There are also safety aspects of taking young children onto crowded slopes during the peak weeks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| luigi wrote: |
the difference between being able to afford a family ski holiday or not, I'd like the option to broaden their minds in term-time.
There are also safety aspects of taking young children onto crowded slopes during the peak weeks.
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But if more people felt it OK to take their kids during term time then demand would increase during the times I like to go away and the price of my holidays would increase (as would the length of lift queues) and I'd be able to afford less skiing. Therefore I'd like you to 'broaden their minds' during school holiday time. Sounds harsh? Maybe, but me wanting it to be as cheap and quiet as possible is no worse than you wanting the same.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just take the kids out of school for a week. It is hardly the end of the world, and much cheaper than going during a school holiday, even after paying the fine...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@luigi, cheers I will, although only 3 would be a rather poor year.
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| swiftoid wrote: |
| @luigi, cheers I will, although only 3 would be a rather poor year. |
Now you're rubbing it in! 
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