 Poster: A snowHead
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@rob@rar,
If the avalanche was triggered by other skier/boarders who were above the victim then that also highlights other dangers of skiing off piste.
A few years ago I was skiing with a group with a mountain guide, we were all equipped with transceivers etc. It had snowed heavily the night before and were being very cautious about keeping a good distance between each of us and stopping in places of "safety". At one point a group appeared above us who didn't have backpacks (ie, not equipped for off piste). The group above us were simply following us realising that we were being led by a guide. Our guide stopped and in no uncertain terms shouted at the group above us to go away because they were endangering us.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks @welshflyer I'm new to this kind of thing! I have been to a HAT talk and I'm trying to learn more before going on an off piste week with the UCPA at the end of January in Serre Chevalier.
I guess my reasoning was that wet dense snow and rain would compact the snow underneath and seep through weak hoar layers more and following freeze might unify it all a bit.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Very experienced local guy we came across today set off a slide on a slope we ski a lot and always think should be safe (classic heuristic trap), his client a lady I've skied with last year, from what he said nearly poohed poohed herself!
The issue was nigh on 50cm of fresh had fallen on the ground that was nigh on bare before and had simply not bonded to it, but when a guy of his experience had made a mistake...........
I earlier on had changed my initial plan after skinning up to a ridge and had spoken to a guy (don't know whether he was a guide, but a local), and he mentioned the same.
Hey ho it's that time of year to err on the side of caution.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@leggyblonde, make sure you go to the avalanche talk at the ucpa its really good, and there weren't many people at the english presentation. Youll get to do some good arva practice too.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| @welshflyer, I think I read yesterday that the guy in Santons (which was probably loaded on both sides of the gully) had the avalanche triggered by another skier, presumably above them. Have to say I wouldn't have gone anywhere near Santons in yesterday's conditions. |
The only tracks going close to the avalanche zone are very close to the bottom. Those may still have been above the group but if it is that unstable you shouldn't be on or under the slope, especially not in a terrain trap. The slope was a series of shallow valleys which had been cross loaded by the wind, filling in the valley, hence the depth of the slide at the center of the crown. You wouldn't want to be conducting a rescue in that sector either given the possibility for slides on other parts of the slope and no easy means of escape.
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To return to the subject of just off piste avalanches, a nice slide with terrain trap next to the Tommeuse in Val d'Isere
Credit Jean-Christophe Souillac / Alpine Experience / http://www.alpineexperience.com/guides/
people have been killed in things like that.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 8-01-16 15:55; edited 1 time in total
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Lots of those by the Tommeuse........
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just come off the phone talking to Per (a LG guide) who I had a missed call from this morning.
And talking about conditions etc, early this morning he was on the LG commission run (when a few guides go up to check conditions and then report back and then the Mairie and Lift Co make a decision on whether to open or not) and he said how it had been 100km winds up top and then they skied below P2 by around 150m and they skinned back up as slides were going off everywhere and daren't go down!
So he took his group to Monetier (hence phone call to me to ask about temps) and had a reasonable ski for a couple of hours then just got heavier and did not venture down Montagnolle once Yret had opened, too dangerous!
But he concurred that current conditions are just what we need!!
Patience.......................
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So today was up the hill attending the Club Alpine Francais Briancon "Journée Neige & Sécurité Prévention Hiver 2016".
http://gazzzco.wix.com/neige-securite
This was in part due to the terrible tragedies that occurred in our area last season, especially when six were killed in one avalanche from the neighbouring CAF of Guilliestre. I'm pretty sure they said that they had received funding for the day, though could not understand if it was from government or CAF central.
My real objective was to put the OH through her paces, and I was very pleased with the result. She is now more aware of the necessary speed in getting together probe and shovel out of the back pack. She has previously done a fair amount of searching in the snow, but she learnt some new stuff today, and more importantly in more of stressful environment with someone looking over her!
After the searching it was shovel technique and I too learnt a few things that I'd not come across on a week long course such as the V technique when four of five of you might be digging for one victim in deep snow.
Then after that it was more about victim stabilisation and preparation for a heli evac again some good informative stuff.
Have to say out of the dozen or so non CAF people attending of which four or so were snowshoers in their more mature years, there was then us three Brits and only a few other Frenchies.
The various instructors / guides were first class and I'm really glad we made the effort, especially the OH who yesterday was a tad hesitant about going along with another young Brit seasonaire who thought the same.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| ... the V technique when four of five of you might be digging for one victim in deep snow. |
Two at the front digging, then the others behind in a V removing the snow that the two at the front dig out?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The wind has started to howl in Tignes, local avalanche risk is forecast by MF as 4 tomorrow and rising for Tuesday - a potential black flag.
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@Weathercam, interesting stuff. I had a session a couple of years back with a guy who had been a Canadian piste patroller. What opened my eyes was I had previously focused on the transceiver finding excercises. He taught the importance of all three stages.
In Canada burials are often deeper than in Europe, so good skills with probes, and especially efficient digging saves lives. I'm doing the Avalanche Academy course on Thursday (with zero g) and will report back. I have to say with the weather we have been having below 2000m the biggest danger seems to be drowning.
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You know it makes sense.
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@rob@rar, yes, but only one at the front then the rest in a V behind a shovel length (80cm) away, but what was stressed was that the guy doing the digging (the others evac the snow behind) in front has to be relieved if he gets tired and then you move around clockwise so the one at the front is always fresh for a couple of minutes fast digging, if my explanation makes sense 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Weathercam wrote: |
| .. if my explanation makes sense |
Yes, perfectly. That's what I've been taught, although I don't think it was labelled as V digging. The point about rotating the point man is well made. I was shocked how hard it was to dig against the clock.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Weathercam wrote: |
| .. if my explanation makes sense |
Yes, perfectly. That's what I've been taught, although I don't think it was labelled as V digging. The point about rotating the point man is well made. I was shocked how hard it was to dig against the clock. |
Yep was taught same technique by a Chamonix guide on one of offpisteskiing's trips last year. It's bloody tiring: 30 secs max for the digger. Really puts things into perspective.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The week long EuroAvalanche course that I did a few years back is taking place in La Grave this week so they will have great conditions to "study".
The course is more biased towards snow and avalanches with the mornings spent on theory and then up the hill in the afternoon.
So a lot of snow pits dug and assessment, as well as obviously searching.
The final day is the examination, where your snow pit(s) and subsequent analysis is graded, then you have an individual search, where you are graded on finding multiple packs in a given time limit in deep snow.
Then the final part of the examination is the group scenario.
So you're skiing down Vallons in LG and you don't know where but you eventually come across a "group" caught in a slide, with various bit's of kit splattered over the slope. The charade also had a mad skier panicking running round shouting at us.
You then have to go into group search mode and find the "victims".
Then it was our turn to be the victims, by burying our packs with our transceivers on.
However one guy really increased the probable reality of the scenario by burying his pack but forgetting to put his transceiver in. So the group searching found five packs, and then the guy that forgot realised what he's done and had to put his hand up and explain the situation - so that then had all twelve of us probing for his pack which we eventually found!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I recall doing a practice we had set up ourselves, the signals were all over the place! We then realised we were too close to a chair lift and every time someone went passed with a transceiver on we were chasing that signal.
Doh!
But a lesson learnt, getting everyone in a search area to switch off their transceiver remains a challenge.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
I'm doing the Avalanche Academy course on Thursday (with zero g) and will report back.
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The Avalanche Academy course is the best single day course I have done. Credit to Stuart for particularly realistic and thorough set of rescue scenarios. Single person doing multiple bag recovery on a 25 deg slope is hard.
@rob@rar, I presume you were taught to chop the block out and then lift it with the spade rather than dig the bag out like you are building a sandcastle? The former being less tiring than the latter - albeit still being very tiring.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| gorilla wrote: |
| @rob@rar, I presume you were taught to chop the block out and then lift it with the spade rather than dig the bag out like you are building a sandcastle? |
Yes, but as you say, exhausting even with good digging technique.
When it was against the clock and I was being assessed I found the whole process, including managing the group, the search, moving around in the snowpack on a steep slope and then the digging very stressful. Practising in an avalanche park doesn't come close to replicating those conditions, and I try not to imagine what it would be like to do it for real.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| .....When it was against the clock and I was being assessed I found the whole process, including managing the group, the search, moving around in the snowpack on a steep slope and then the digging very stressful. Practising in an avalanche park doesn't come close to replicating those conditions, and I try not to imagine what it would be like to do it for real. |
+1
And even yesterday in a much calmer scenario the OH realised that speed is what it's all about.
And don't lift the snow, that's what knackers you, cut the block top and two sides then sweep back
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I was hoping for not too much digging on Thursday but given the weather I think there might be. I've never dug in avalanche debris, but having skied over it it must be like digging concrete. I have got a kickarse shovel though. I've also upgraded my transceiver but not yet practiced with it, except in the house! that might be interesting.
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@jbob, where's the course you are doing on Thursday and do you know if there are places left? I could do with a refresher!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jbob wrote: |
| I recall doing a practice we had set up ourselves, the signals were all over the place! We then realised we were too close to a chair lift and every time someone went passed with a transceiver on we were chasing that signal. . |
Plenty of avalanches under chair lifts and power lines.
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| jbob wrote: |
| I've never dug in avalanche debris, |
Significant difference between that and digging normal snowpack, snowpits for example. Much harder, much heavier. Having a decent shovel makes a big difference. I tried it with a friend's plastic shovel and it was just a joke. He tossed the plastic shovel in the bin half way through the course and bought a metal one.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Ischgl yesterday. Most intense avi control I've ever seen in an open resort, going on all day. Over 20 big slides triggered on various different aspects, at least two big naturals. Hope run closed at the end of the day for 20 mins while they blasted above it. Super strong wind transport all day.
Now snowing hard.
This week is going to be treacherous in Western Tirol and Vorarlberg.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
When it was against the clock and I was being assessed I found the whole process, including managing the group, the search, moving around in the snowpack on a steep slope and then the digging very stressful. Practising in an avalanche park doesn't come close to replicating those conditions, and I try not to imagine what it would be like to do it for real.
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Practice is invaluable. In my experience I've practiced on fairly level ground, off piste and in quite deep snow. But it didn't prepare me and my companions to deal with being on a steep slope in a real situation. The reality was one person lost a backpack when they placed it on the snow to get their kit out, it slide away from them. Another lost their skis by simply taking them off, another their ski poles. Without the skis it made it impossible to get about and to get any purchase on the snow to dig or move around.
Looking back it seems obvious that that would happen, but you're in almost panic mode knowing that you need to act and act quickly. What you're also not prepared for is when adrenaline and shock kick in and how that can affect you.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you're going to practice then apart from understanding how to use the kit, try different locations and scenarios (not every one needs to have people buried - perhaps badly injured?). Even knowing some first aid basics like how to take a pulse and do basic CPR or tie a tourniquet could make all the difference.
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@Bod, some good points there. In a practice session in which we were being timed, I made the mistake of taking my gloves off to dig. My hands became frozen but because we were running out of time, I couldn't stop digging to put my gloves back on. One in my group also lost his pack when it slid down the mountain.
With regards to basic first aid, I would say it's a definite plus. I read that avy deaths are not always caused by carbon dioxide poisoning but due to internal trauma from being tumbled about with heavy blocks of snow. Although basic first aid may not help in cases such as massive internal bleeding, it may make a difference in less severe cases.
@clarky999, that's huge 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@jbob, thanks. Have dropped them an email.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Re First Aid basics - do not move the body unless you have to - check there is no snow next to extremities - take gloves off and if necessary give them yours - undo jacket etc and clear all traces of snow out as well as ina and around groin area - again extremities.
Use snow to pack body tight, and a light layer of insulation, check pulse though remember might be hyperthermic so pulse might be non existant, do not give up - check respiratory track for snow though put something between teeth rather than your fingers in case victim goes into convulsion clamping down on your digits!
If you have to move body - secure head and move head with body and keep flat / straight on the ground.
It was stressed that if you do not know the victim then do bare minimum in moving as it might come back at you as a court case which was all rather depressing to be told that, but such is the way of the world now a days
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Bod wrote: |
Practice is invaluable. In my experience I've practiced on fairly level ground, off piste and in quite deep snow. But it didn't prepare me and my companions to deal with being on a steep slope in a real situation. The reality was one person lost a backpack when they placed it on the snow to get their kit out, it slide away from them. Another lost their skis by simply taking them off, another their ski poles. Without the skis it made it impossible to get about and to get any purchase on the snow to dig or move around.
Looking back it seems obvious that that would happen, but you're in almost panic mode knowing that you need to act and act quickly. What you're also not prepared for is when adrenaline and shock kick in and how that can affect you.
I guess what I'm saying is that if you're going to practice then apart from understanding how to use the kit, try different locations and scenarios (not every one needs to have people buried - perhaps badly injured?). Even knowing some first aid basics like how to take a pulse and do basic CPR or tie a tourniquet could make all the difference. |
CPR is absolutely a requirement.
The other training thing to do is practicing with skins and skis on in "touring mode" with all your kit setup as you would be whilst trundling along. Was quite eye-opening for me practicing how much harder that makes it, particularly with a mixed ability group some of whom can't actually ski with loose boots and skins on. I ended up sending one person down on foot and skiing their skis down. Double the fun with pinwheels this size everywhere making everything feel much more like a debris field:
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I tried it with a friend's plastic shovel and it was just a joke. He tossed the plastic shovel in the bin half way through the course and bought a metal one.
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This.
I refused to get a plastic shovel - although it should be alright for the block technique in soft snow it would be so easy to lever it too much it in a panic and snap it. Just imagine the feeling when your mate was under the snow. And as the debris sets...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Digging pits up in La tour today. Humidified snow through the snow pack even up to 1800m which matches the avy report. Evidence of depth hoar at the base but wet. 2 or 3 rain crust layers evident too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If any of use use Twitter, or even if you don't, you can find some avalanche informatin posted with the #savb tag - snow, avalanche bulletin
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23savb&src=typd
Add #FR for France, #CH for switzerland. Feel free to post your own snow and avalanche information using these tags if you wish.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Given Meteo France quoting 2-3 and 3 depending on altitude and aspect around Mont Blanc, surely the intensity of avalanche control reflects the quantity of arriving snow rather than its inherent stability?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Super sketchy on the back side of le tour today. Lots of wind loading, with multiple layers of instability if the slides were a guide.
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From my local CAF - obviously worried about the coming weekend
Press Release Dated 15 January 2015
We wish to draw the attention of the skiers on the current instability in the snow cover, and on a global context which will present many traps these next few days.
With the improvement of weather conditions to come and the opening of some lifts been closed since the beginning of the season, many slopes with little or no skiées will be accessible to followers of the off-Piste, this weekend.
The recent events on the whole of the alpine region, and more particularly in the Northern Alps, alert us on several specific points:
The great variability in the space of this instability (effects of wind in different directions and the presence of persistent fragile layers - slopes north in altitude),
The many triggers, remotely, avalanches of plate,
The frequency of triggers occurring after many passages of skiers.
This situation must lead to be very vigilant in these next few days in having a real reflection on the choice of the slope or of the itinerary.
We advise to those little experienced seek the advice of trackers-paramedics and to appeal to professionals, ski instructors and high mountain guides.
For the initiated members, the need to apply the safety instructions in essential:
Passing one by one in the slope,
Evolution of island of safety in island of security,
Absence of other groups to the downstream,
Etc.
In all cases, consult the bulletins (Bera) published every day by weather-France and gear up of a material that allows a location by your companions and by the emergency services.
" be locatable! - be searchable! "
Legal Avalanche:
http://www.meteofrance.com/previsions-meteo-montag…/montagne
http://www.anena.org/
http://www.data-avalanche.org/
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FAQ
