 Poster: A snowHead
|
pam w,
Sadly the evidence is there for all to see. Higher capacity, faster lifts serving (in most cases) the same runs as the predecessor lifts mean more people on piste. For example, the lift serving the Allamands piste above Les Menuires used to be a Poma drag lift. Now it's a 6 person fast chair. The same summit from the St Martin side used to be served by a drag lift and now that's a 6 person chair. And finally, from last season from Mottaret, the very same summit is served by a faster bigger gondola, replacing the old slow one. So in just 1 example that's 1 summit (with 5 pistes running from it) previously served by 2 drag lifts and a slow gondola, now served by 2 6 seater fast chairs and a faster, bigger gondola.
When I was there last January (low season, remember!) the Allamands piste suffered the worst overcrowding I've ever witnessed - particularly at the blind spot/brow of the hill 3/4 of the way down. It was like a battlefield and the only safe way down that bit was, IMHO, off piste. The snow was better there anyway! 
And again, it wouldn't be so bad but there were a number of skiers/boarders taking no account of the crowds and blitzing down anyway, using it as a human slalom. 
Interesting comments/questions from all and nice to be part of a thread that's not degenerated into a free for all! I quite like the car ABS/airbag analogy....
And at least there seems to be a general agreement that things are becoming more dodgy on piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@Bergmeister, my experience is quite different but I don't ski in big name ski areas or the few peak weeks. I frequently ski on pistes empty but for myself, or a few other folk. I do find areas like the three valleys horrendously busy on the odd days I've spent there - even in supposedly quiet times. I feel like Heidi's grandfather, bemused by the big city!
There are more pistes than ever, that's for sure (even my small area has added both lifts and pistes in the last ten years) but industry-wide figures on participation in skiing don't necessarily suggest that there are more skiers.
Is there any more "scientific" evidence, do you think?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
I do think lifts have, on average, got a lot faster. And queues perhaps correspondingly smaller. So the same number of skiers could mean more of them on the pistes, fewer of them in the queues, at any given time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Add that to most of the stiffer red/black runs now being pisted for the "high speed carvers" (which I also enjoy), where they used to be gnarly bumps and there you have it!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@KenX raises a good point. I would quite like more bumps to improve my skiing but nice gentle ones to start with on a blue. Not some car sized monsters on a steep piste which would test me without bumps. Must say that I don't know of many places that have "baby bumps" for the likes of me, although the unpisted runs in hemsedal were quite nice (mostly because I didn't fall over....)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I love it when "technique snobs" describe other skiers as skiing "beyond their capabilities". Have they not paid for exactly the same lift pass? Why can't everybody just concentrate on enjoying their own skiing with their own friends / family without worrying about how others choose to spend their time? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@KennyEverett, maybe we should rephrase "beyond capabilities" to "beyond ability to stop"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Indeed but whilst somebody is busy watching others (and doubtless tutting away) they could be better served ignoring said others and concentrating on having a good time.
It's the same with cars. Why worry about the bad drivers when you can't change the way they drive by simply disapproving
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Actually I'm going to blame snow domes and their 'learn to ski in a day' courses.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Nadenoodlee, I knew it! Rob@Rar's fault again!
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
I blame skitracks.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
The fact is that collisions and near misses happen. It doesn't necessarily mean that someone is at fault. I almost bumped into a snowboarder at Xscape last week whilst being perfectly in control, as was he. He even apologised to me for cutting me up to which I replied "No problem mate, these things happen" He didn't mean any harm just as I didn't want to take him out. (I'm no fan of boarders either)
There seems to be far more people on the slopes these days than 30 years ago when I first skied so having your wits about you is a must but not to the point where it spoils your enjoyment. I took my partner and kids for the first time last year and at no stage did I worry about other skiers.
The snobbery I eluded to is stating that someone is skiing beyond their capabilities. You have no idea how good they are or how many lessons they've had. The chances are if they are passing you on the piste, they are either better than you or have bigger kahunas. Skiing for me is an activity that I regularly have to push my boundaries, test my own abilities. Prove to myself that I am as good as I think I am.
Last time I looked there were no speed limits on pistes
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Good shout @emwmarine,
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| KennyEverett wrote: |
| I love it when "technique snobs" describe other skiers as skiing "beyond their capabilities". Have they not paid for exactly the same lift pass? Why can't everybody just concentrate on enjoying their own skiing with their own friends / family without worrying about how others choose to spend their time? |
How else would you like people who are skiing beyond their capability to be described? I'm definitely in the camp of everyone should exercise their own responsibility without worrying about speed limits and the like, but when people are skiing beyond their capability they can be a very real risk to other slope users. Last season a friend of mine was crashed in to at high speed by a hit and run skier, severely breaking a leg and damaging a hand. She is still having operations to fix the problems which followed the incident, and I'm not sure she will be able to ski again. Just last week a guy I was skiing with was hit at speed from behind, leading to concussion and a visit to the shop to replace his helmet which was split as a result of the crash. In both cases the offending skier was skiing beyond their capabilities.
Testing your ability and pushing your personal envelope is a good thing. But it shouldn't threaten the well being of other slope users.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
KennyEverett, no set speed limits as such maybe, but rules 1 & 2 of the FIS Rules for Conduct both imply and explicitly state (respectively) that speed should be limited in order to ensure safety. On a busy piste, it's nothing to do with kahunas.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Remind me never to ski with you then. You don't sound safe to be with (joke)
Crashing into someone is obviously out of order. Skiing off afterwards is the lowest of the low.
For the record I've never had a crash and when I'm with my kids I stay behind them on the whole so don't go very fast either. But I don't see hoards of tearaways "buzzing" other skiers. I sometimes wonder if these "near misses" are actually the offended skier simply getting spooked by the noise of the "out of control" skier going past and they don't actually see them so mistakenly think it was a lot closer than it really was.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| KennyEverett wrote: |
| Crashing into someone is obviously out of order. |
So it would be fair to say that they were skiing beyond their capabilities?
| KennyEverett wrote: |
| I sometimes wonder if these "near misses" are actually the offended skier simply getting spooked by the noise of the "out of control" skier going past and they don't actually see them so mistakenly think it was a lot closer than it really was. |
I think there's a lot to be said for respecting your fellow slope users. I can, and usually do, ski quicker than a large proportion of skiers and boarders. But when I do I always aim to give other slope users a wide enough berth to not only avoid the possibility of a collision, but also not to get so close as to alarm somebody who might be anxious about their own skiing as well as the possibility in an idiot crashing in to them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
My opinion, for what it's worth is not an increase of skier population but a very well observed "improvement" in how easy it is to learn to ski at a beginner/intermediate level + (at least where I ski (Monterosa/Chamonix)) fabulously groomed slopes.
I try and spend most of my time round both areas off piste. It's so much safer.
There are very, very definitely more skiers out of control, who have not learned what's going on, on slopes thtbare far too easy to ski quickly on, to be sensible.
Rant over. I turn 5 next year, I'm allowed to rant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Bergmeister wrote: |
However, with increasing frequency, we find ourselves being overtaken by skiers rocketing past us, in some cases skiing twice as fast as us. |
Did you ever consider that its just you getting slower with age 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| dobby wrote: |
| @KenX Must say that I don't know of many places that have "baby bumps" |
If you stayed out until the end of the day rather than heading for the pub, you would find most slopes have baby bumps where it was a little steep or congested 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Just as well DG is currently on his meds. Trick re staying safe on piste is ski fast enough that you know anyone going past you is really quite good. Problem is not helmets IMV but brutal grooming - the twunts doing the blue run bombing would be a bit more reticent if they had to deal with normal snow conditions or even day after a groom.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Dave of the Marmottes, I dont blame the grooming, I blame the canons. If it weren't for the canons the grass and rocks would slow them down 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| I turn 5 next year. |
Bless, and you write so well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
Rant over. I turn 5 next year, I'm allowed to rant. |
God knows what you'll be like when you turn 50 then 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
[quote="rob@rar"]
| KennyEverett wrote: |
| Crashing into someone is obviously out of order. |
So it would be fair to say that they were skiing beyond their capabilities?
Not necessarily. I also wonder how many actual collisions are caused by sheer bad luck, like 2 skiers converging on each other completely unaware of the other. Plus how many times have you "meant" to fall? Very few I suspect if any. You can be skiing well within your limits, then something happens. Be it a patch of ice, a rock or catch an edge. Anything that momentarily throws you or interrupts your concentration can cause you to be heading in a completely different direction to what you were trying for.
How many times have you been tramming on and plotting your way around a relative beginner who's making a turn every 50 yards only for them pop in an extra turn just as you approach. These things happen. It's nobody's fault, you adjust and carry on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| KennyEverett wrote: |
| Not necessarily. I also wonder how many actual collisions are caused by sheer bad luck, like 2 skiers converging on each other completely unaware of the other. |
Sure, accidents happen where nobody is at fault, or it's shared 50:50. But in the two cases I cited, one of my friends was stationary when she was crashed in to, and the other was crashed in to from behind when he was skiing consistent turns in a constant corridor width on a wide open slope with good snow conditions. Either those crashes were deliberate (which I don't believe for one moment) or the skiers who crashed in to my friends (both of whom are ski instructors, BTW) were skiing without the ability to control their speed and/or line. By definition, that's skiing beyond their capability.
I see lots of skiers skiing beyond their capability. Through good fortune relatively few of them crash in to other people, otherwise skiing and boarding would be considerably more dangerous than it is.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 16-12-15 23:44; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| KennyEverett wrote: |
| How many times have you been tramming on and plotting your way around a relative beginner who's making a turn every 50 yards only for them pop in an extra turn just as you approach. |
I allow enough space for unexpected changes of direction, especially if I think they are an inexperienced skier. Crashing in to the back of somebody because "they turned unexpectedly" does not absolve you of your responsibility.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
like 2 skiers converging on each other completely unaware of the other.
|
For that to happen you'd have to have two skiers heading towards one another with neither of them looking where they were going. I guess it is bad luck if you're stupid enough not to be paying attention to where you're headed and you happen to be near someone else equally as stupid.
I understand that accidents can happen if someone catches an edge or loses it on a patch of ice but for two people to ski into each other and neither of them realise it was going to happen until they smack into each other sounds massively careless on the part of both parties.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@PaulC1984, I'll have you know I stay out as long as possible. Anyway, last two trips were to Norway so couldn't afford the pub 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| KennyEverett wrote: |
| How many times have you been tramming on and plotting your way around a relative beginner who's making a turn every 50 yards only for them pop in an extra turn just as you approach. |
I allow enough space for unexpected changes of direction, especially if I think they are an inexperienced skier. Crashing in to the back of somebody because "they turned unexpectedly" does not absolve you of your responsibility. |
+1
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
You make some good points but I don't necessarily agree with them all. Skiing is, by definition, the sort of sport/hobby/pastime (that's another discussion) that drives people to push their limits. We've all done it and there is a time and place which some people don't choose wisely. To try and sanitise it and remove the danger element would, for me, reduce the enjoyment level.
I feel for anyone that has suffered injuries, particularly when they've done nothing wrong but it is part and parcel of this wonderful thing that we all love (or are obsessed with) and you take to the slopes with the knowledge that injuries are possible. Live and let live I say
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| KennyEverett wrote: |
You make some good points but I don't necessarily agree with them all. Skiing is, by definition, the sort of sport/hobby/pastime (that's another discussion) that drives people to push their limits. We've all done it and there is a time and place which some people don't choose wisely. To try and sanitise it and remove the danger element would, for me, reduce the enjoyment level.
I feel for anyone that has suffered injuries, particularly when they've done nothing wrong but it is part and parcel of this wonderful thing that we all love (or are obsessed with) and you take to the slopes with the knowledge that injuries are possible. Live and let live I say |
hhmmmm im sure id take great issue to my 3yo son or wife being ploughed down by some muppet though, as im sure you would. Its not about sanitising, its about having respect for others, which i think more and more are lacking
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 17-12-15 0:06; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@KennyEverett, I'm not trying to sanitise it. As I've said, I'm not in favour of arbitrary speed limits and I will sometimes ski quickly when the conditions allow. But I am in favour of personal responsibility and respect for fellow slope users. Recklessly fast skiing because you're "pushing your limits" and a casual "accidents happen" attitude are unacceptable, IMO. Injuries through another party's recklessness should not be a part and parcel of this wonderful thing.
How would you feel if somebody crashed in to one of your kids at high speed, causing serious injury in the process, because they were "going for it" and pushing their limits...?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| PaulC1984 wrote: |
| KennyEverett wrote: |
You make some good points but I don't necessarily agree with them all. Skiing is, by definition, the sort of sport/hobby/pastime (that's another discussion) that drives people to push their limits. We've all done it and there is a time and place which some people don't choose wisely. To try and sanitise it and remove the danger element would, for me, reduce the enjoyment level.
I feel for anyone that has suffered injuries, particularly when they've done nothing wrong but it is part and parcel of this wonderful thing that we all love (or are obsessed with) and you take to the slopes with the knowledge that injuries are possible. Live and let live I say |
hhmmmm im sure it take great issue to my 3yo son or wife being ploughed down by some muppet though, as im sure you would. Its not about sanitising, its about having respect for others, which i think more and more are lacking |
Agreed but I took my 5yo son and 8yo daughter for the first time last year to a very busy Zell am See and I have to say, looking out for idiots was right at the back of my mind because a: the kids were having a ball, and b: the VAST majority of skiers AND boarders are simply doing the same. Enjoying this great sport/hobby/pastime.
The only time I really got to let loose was when the kids were on the gondola back down and I raced them down the deserted ungroomed blacks back to the bottom of the Schmitten
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
@PaulC1984,
| Quote: |
its about having respect for others, which i think more and more are lacking
|
+1
Unfortunately skiing doesn't exist in isolation, and the behaviour of some of its participants reflects a general change in social grace.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| mozwold wrote: |
@PaulC1984,
| Quote: |
its about having respect for others, which i think more and more are lacking
|
+1
Unfortunately skiing doesn't exist in isolation, and the behaviour of some of its participants reflects a general change in social grace. |
+2
"Society Awakens"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
