 Poster: A snowHead
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One really nice ski instructor told us to pretend we were leaning forwards to hug someone... works for me 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Or roll up ski pants and tuck a tenner between you shins and boots; I guarantee you will keep pressure on your shins! Especially if you're as Scottish as me 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@pam w, it would be hard to practice being centered on a drag lift as the lift would exert a force thro a point you would not get skiing.
The idea behind the cock pit check, is that you take literally a couple of seconds getting your posture right before you start, defiantly not try to focus on all the points which would be nigh impossible. The one to focus on is the last one, "brain engaged, now what's the focus this pitch".
For me correcting poor posture is one of the hardest things to do.
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| c44rver wrote: |
| Or roll up ski pants and tuck a tenner between you shins and boots; I guarantee you will keep pressure on your shins! Especially if you're as Scottish as me |
And a bottle top at the back.
One (now considered dangerous) extremely effective drill is to ski with all straps and buckles on your boots undone!![/b]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
it would be hard to practice being centered on a drag lift as the lift would exert a force thro a point you would not get skiing.
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no doubt true but when you see someone going up a drag swivelling their skis through 180 degrees side to side they are clearly managing it!!
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| jbob wrote: |
| c44rver wrote: |
| Or roll up ski pants and tuck a tenner between you shins and boots; I guarantee you will keep pressure on your shins! Especially if you're as Scottish as me |
And a bottle top at the back.
One (now considered dangerous) extremely effective drill is to ski with all straps and buckles on your boots undone!![/b] |
Still good practice though, and for a good skier still well worth doing.
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| sparklies wrote: |
@Ade57, "How long" is a tricky question as I can't really answer in the conventional "X weeks" due to the volume of lessons I've had at Hemel. Yet at the same time I've not had much mountain experience (a week in my 20s, then in the last just over two years - now late 30s - it's one week and one three day break) And of course the year off I had recently! |
No technical advice from me but, regardless of lessons at Hemel it sounds like you are still pretty new at learning to ski. Don't be too hard on yourself, some people ski for years and are still in the back seat. If you don't feel like you are getting much from the lessons you are having maybe concentrate on having less, but with an instructor you really like or has been recommended, where are you going for your next trip, someone might be able to recommend someone good? Is it possible you are going ending up in the back seat more on the mountain because you are a wee bit scared?
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Wow, so many comments, thank you everyone! Still all as contradictory as ever 
There's far too many to answer individually now, but everyone's comments have been very appreciated and because it seems there is no right answer I'll probably try all the ones I can remember and see if any of it helps! (and end up confusing myself hopelessly into the bargain no doubt, but I can always revert back to my "normal" skiing!!)
@jimmer, Thank you that's a good link and a good point about doing proper squats as well. I admit I do the wall stuff simply because it's something I can easily fit into my life without forgetting and I feel it's better than nothing!
@zebedee, One instructor I had recently, who I have a lot of respect for, suggested I *might* (he couldn't say for certain) have Lordosis in my spine from the very brief video he did of me. He said it's possible if I did have it, it could make a difference. Then again no physios or osteopaths have mentioned it that I can recall and I have seen at least half a dozen different ones over the years for mostly pregnancy related issues. I get SPD during pregnancy (which is to do with the pelvis getting misaligned) very badly and end up on crutches/needing a wheelchair but it clears up at delivery and I have seen a consultant-level physio since my final baby for core-related work. So combined with the other things I have whether pregnant or not, for all I know I could have a mechanical issue.
@Richard_Sideways, Hmm,I have something very similar to one of those Bosu balls - maybe I should give it a go!
@lynseyf, Yes, I'm definitely no expert and firmly in the intermediate category - whether early intermediate or intermediate is subjective though! I think partly because I know how easy it is to get bad habits ingrained I'm so keen to crack this one before it becomes even more of an autopilot thing than it is already. As you say people do ski for years and stay in the back seat and surely it has to be harder to sort out the longer you leave it! Mind you, I am my own worst critic. There won't be time when we're in Les Arcs on Saturday as it is just for Saturday, but it would be good to get a decent recommendation when we go to Tignes next January if I haven't improved significantly by then. And yes, when in the mountains there is a degree of fear especially in the first few days which could be affecting things - I'm not going to deny it! But that's part of the fun  as well as the satisfaction of managing to ski well one day!
I'll update when I get back from Les Arcs if anything worked!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm no expert but I would not get fixated on getting weight forward. I think this can be unhelpful as you can end up almost standing on your tip toes inside your boots and that means you will struggle to get the control you need.
You will be comfortable if your weight is balanced more or less on the balls of your feet - but not so much that you your heels are lifting - just slightly more pressure to the front of the foot. And definitely don't try to push your shins against the front of your boots all of the time - if you are trying to do this you will probably be compensating by sticking your bum out too far and constantly being too flexed at the ankles, knees and hips, which is tiring. And if all of this is because you are struggling to initiate turns, think about rolling your ankles from side to side rather than constantly looking to push forward.
I read somewhere a few years ago that people generally don't use their ankles enough when skiing and this tip still helps me out. Modern skis will turn if you put them on their edge and you can do this by rolling your ankles from side to side - try it now while you are sat at your desk pretending to work (like me) - roll them and feel the edges of the souls of your shoes (might not work so well if you are in heels - a stout pair of brogues is better!). I know you might say "but when I'm skiing they're stuck in stiff boots" but trust me it works - if you are not already doing this, try it. Think about flexing your ankles both forward and laterally and you might find it helps.
Good luck! I think you might need it if you try to work on everyone's tips at the same time
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@mickv, thanks! Honestly if it were not for the thigh burn I probably would take it with a pinch of salt. I agree when I've been trying the tiptoes method I feel that I have less finer control even if things are a bit more steady. Not a great compromise really. I'm already reasonably good at turning just through pressure and applying edges - from the feedback I've had this doesn't seem to be an area I have an issue with right now. I seem to be able to bend my ankles to the side okay, just not the other way!!
And yes - perhaps I should try all the tips at once in one run down at Hemel and get thrown out for endangering everyone including myself 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jedster wrote: |
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Am I causing myself unnecessary pain for no gain
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Yes - actually worse than that, probably detrimental to be applying that much forward pressure, you are aiming to be centred so light forward pressure is correct. You don't necessarily need to be visibly flexing your boots just feeling light pressure on your shins. |
Thanks.
This is clearly something I need to check specifically with my instructor next week because I have definitely been told that flexing the boots using the shins is desirable. Maybe it's intended only as a static drill (ie. not something to aim for whilst actually skiing) and I've simply missed that point
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| sparklies wrote: |
@mickv, I seem to be able to bend my ankles to the side okay, just not the other way!!
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It's hard to imagine that you can be a runner and still not have enough ankle flex to ski effectively. If you sit on the floor with your legs extended in front of you, can you bend your ankles so you point your toes back towards your head? Or do your feet get stuck with your toes pointing to the ceiling?
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| Pending wrote: |
| sparklies wrote: |
@mickv, I seem to be able to bend my ankles to the side okay, just not the other way!!
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It's hard to imagine that you can be a runner and still not have enough ankle flex to ski effectively. If you sit on the floor with your legs extended in front of you, can you bend your ankles so you point your toes back towards your head? Or do your feet get stuck with your toes pointing to the ceiling? |
Not only is it very uncomfortable for me to sit on the floor with legs extended for long (I have trouble getting them straight as back of my calves hurt!) but nope, I definitely can't get them pointed anywhere beyond the ceiling and even that causes a bit of pain down my calf!
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You know it makes sense.
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It's hard to imagine that you can be a runner and still not have enough ankle flex to ski effectively.
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Some runners are forefoot strikers and can have very tight calves
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Not only is it very uncomfortable for me to sit on the floor with legs extended for long (I have trouble getting them straight as back of my calves hurt!)
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That sounds very tight. DO you stretch? I think you be getting physio advice and probably should be stretching twice a day
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| sparklies wrote: |
| Pending wrote: |
| sparklies wrote: |
@mickv, I seem to be able to bend my ankles to the side okay, just not the other way!!
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It's hard to imagine that you can be a runner and still not have enough ankle flex to ski effectively. If you sit on the floor with your legs extended in front of you, can you bend your ankles so you point your toes back towards your head? Or do your feet get stuck with your toes pointing to the ceiling? |
Not only is it very uncomfortable for me to sit on the floor with legs extended for long (I have trouble getting them straight as back of my calves hurt!) but nope, I definitely can't get them pointed anywhere beyond the ceiling and even that causes a bit of pain down my calf! |
Yeah, agreed, that sounds very tight. What about sitting on a chair with your bare feet flat on the floor? Can you lift your toes or forefoot off the ground at all?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
That sounds very tight. DO you stretch? I think you be getting physio advice and probably should be stretching twice a day
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I agree! i did this and it has made a big difference to my skiing, i can now flex! I played to many years of Hockey without stretching afterwards and sometimes not before.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@cameronphillips2000, you and I think alike
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sorry to appear insensitive/ignorant/anything else really but if you can bend your ankles, your waist and your knees, you can put pressure on the top of a ski boot and articulate sufficiently to ski. If you cannot, then something is fundamentally wrong and you need medical treatment. But since you can run this is all very unlikely since that process requires that you have the requisite flex and balance to ski
One quick test: stand on a flat piece of ground in boots attached to skis and lean forward without bending your knees or waist. If you can touch the tips of your skis your boots are too flexible and the set up is wrong. One other thing you might like to try is the Campbell Dynamic Ski Balancer. That should check out a few things about your stance and balance
Assuming that the kit is OK it sounds like the problem is brain based rather than physical although the fact that you do not pole plant and have bad thigh burn sounds like you are not rising and falling sufficiently. Apart from weight transfer, the process gives your legs an (alternate) chance to rest. If you are permanently locked in a crouched position your legs will fatigue quickly and you may tend to 'sit' on the back of your boots to provide some relief which could lead to the failure to transfer weight forward correctly. Like jedster said - being low and centred should not be that tiring.
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| Pending wrote: |
| Yeah, agreed, that sounds very tight. What about sitting on a chair with your bare feet flat on the floor? Can you lift your toes or forefoot off the ground at all? |
I can - about 4cm or so.
My husband just suggested a test whereby you stand a few inches from a vertical surface with your feet flat on the floor, and you try and get your knees to touch the wall. I could barely move them forward at all, not even halfway there. My 6 year old did it with no problems. I thought I was normal but having seen her (although to be fair she has above average flexibility in general) I realise I'm clearly not quite right! Husband has the same issue actually (Colin told him so as well!) so clearly she didn't inherit her ankles from us..! 8 year old has the same problem as us (just tested her with both tests) so she's clearly ours!
If it makes any difference, I often have ITB issues when running but some of that is possibly down to overdoing the distance as I am able to go for ages in terms of fitness and stamina, but my knees don't always agree.
I do informal stretching, as in, I don't have a clue what I'm doing and just stretch out limbs and stuff first thing, but nothing proper. It's more for my back and arms. I am sure I could benefit from doing proper stretches. Suggestions welcome!
@RattytheSnowRat, during a lesson recently we were all leaning as far forward as possible whilst still on a flat surface and I got absolutely nowhere near the front of the skis, not a hope! You have a good point about not rising and falling sufficiently. I think in my efforts to try and get my weight forward I've forgotten a bit about that along the way and I am quite sure it would help.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I am sure I could benefit from doing proper stretches. Suggestions welcome!
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for calves I like to hang off a step. Stand with toes on step, hold the hand rail, let your heels sink as deep as possible and hold. Try to think about relaxing your calves as you do it. Deeper stretch by doing one foot at a time
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@jedster, thanks! That sounds like a nice easy one I can easily incorporate into my day. Half the issue is finding the time and remembering to do these things! I do some core exercises before getting out of bed in the mornings and of course the wall sits with my teethbrushing (combined with working my core as well) Perhaps whenever I go upstairs I could try this..
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| sparklies wrote: |
| I don't have a clue what I'm doing and just stretch out limbs and stuff first thing. |
It is more important to stretch after exercise. Progressively warming up before exercise should normally be enough to avoid most muscular injury but stretching after exercise when the muscles are fully warm is very effective.
Perhaps you would benefit from getting someone who knows what they are doing to teach you the proper stretches for Gastrocnemius
Hamstrings
Quadriceps
Gluteus minimus, maximus and medius.
Once mastered you might try the hip flexors and extensors then aductors and abductors ad infinitum.
Foam Rollers are another good way to loosen up the old corpse if used properly but the are evil and hurt like hell while giving deep tissue massage to the tight bits.
There are loads of example stretches on line. Just google the terms i've listed.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 12-03-15 0:47; edited 1 time in total
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@sparklies, if you can't sit on the floor with legs extended you should maybe see a good physio and get specific advice for your raft of flexibility problems. Just doing some random stretches without guidance could do more harm than good especially if you go at it with too much enthusiasm.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hate to break it to everyone, but modern ski design does not necessitate shin in boots steering. Just tip and rip. Enjoy!
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Looks like we're getting somewhere with this. I suspect this boils down to your lack of dorsiflexion and the things done to the boot to counteract your lack of dorsiflexion. You clearly need a substantial heel lift, which should open the ankle joint enough for you to ski but at a cost of altering your balance point.
If that is it then one potential way out of this is increasing your dorsiflexion such that you can begin to remove the heel lift. That means advice from a physio, stretching an possibly some sports massage. I use a prostretch, which has done great things for my bulky, inflexible calves.
That said, I think you are at a point where advice from people who have a very limited knowledge of your physiology is not going to be that much help. I would PM Colin, remind him of your issues - he did after all fit your boots - and talk through what's going on.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks all. I think it is clear I should go see a physio at some point soon, and see what they have to say! Colin didn't fit my boots (I did have an appointment with him but it was wrong time of year and he had no stock) and I ended up getting my boots in resort, which was a locally recommended shop in Plagne 1800. It was after I returned I went to see Colin who popped in the heel lifts. But perhaps I should get in contact again after I've seen a physio. The one I've used in the past has a link with the Snow Centre so they're obviously used to skiing related stuff, or at least I hope so!!
If it is all down to having crap ankle flex I feel a lot better about it all! After all, thinking I am just being crap at something when it turns out I physically can't do it is a bit of a relief. I'm normally quite quick at picking up physical skills and I'm quite an active (and determined!) person so this was really frustrating me. It does explain a lot - the baffled looks on some instructors' faces when I say "No, really, I couldn't do it!" and them thinking I'm just being crap or lazy when I've tried so hard to get it right!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If you can lift your forefoot when sitting then the problem isn't a lack of dorsiflexion/ankle flex. The joint itself bends. If you can lift your toes the same amount or nearly the same when you are standing, then that is enough flex to ski effectively. Think about that position - standing or sitting, with the forefoot off the ground, then keeping that ankle position, if you could somehow tilt the body so the foot was flat on the ground again then your centre of gravity would be much further forward than you would need it to be. If you find you can't lift your foot standing when you can do it sitting, it's likely to be an issue with the calf muscle, or more likely the hamstrings.
Definitely agree with everyone suggesting a good sports physio - ideally one who skis!
Back to the boots - if they have you in a flexed position so you already "stretched" where your movements are limited, then you won't have any more flexibility for a dynamic stretch during the turns. Do try a boot with a more upright stance and see if it helps.
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@sparklies, just get yourself on a course with www.snoworks.co.uk, they have you sorted in no time. They have a very different approach to teaching and have moved away from the traditional teaching methods that concentrate on body posture, hand position etc etc. They concentrate much more on what the feet are doing with the snow. Read this blog post from Phil Smith who explains it far better than I can. http://www.snoworks.co.uk/blog/?p=6916.
Hope this is helpful.
Bod.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Bod, Snoworks look great, but alas with four young children I don't have the freedom to book myself on a week long course anywhere. It's the reason I'm only going for a day to Les Arcs - it's the longest I can leave the baby really. They sound great but like all these things are out of reach for the next few years at least. It's a good article though and a concept a few instructors have mentioned to me over the years and one I agree with.
@Pending, it seems to be about the same whether I'm standing or sitting. Interestingly I noticed today that I always bend over to pick up things the Wrong way. I know one is supposed to bend from the knees, not the back when picking up things, but I've always tried to do the knees, find it doesn't work and resorted to the back. When I force myself to use the knees I just get a LOT of pain in my calves at the bottom and my ankles and physically cannot do it at all. Makes me wonder if some of my back pain is related to this - if I could pick things up properly (after all I spend all day picking up babies etc!) perhaps my back pain would not be as bad. Another incentive to find a good physio!
When I put my boots on, on Saturday, I'll make sure the strap around the top is a bit tighter. Will that help at all?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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@CaravanSkier, Ha, no, I definitely don't wear high heels (and yes, I'm female!) In fact I really struggle with them, and all my shoes are flat or with a very very low heel and fairly thick soles (or insoles). I am all about the comfort, probably because I walk 30-40 odd miles a week to be fair. On the rare occasion I've worn them I have been in loads of pain, mostly ball of foot. I have no idea how other women put themselves through it, it's a mystery to me! How did your aunt manage it??
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Aside from all this stuff about ankle flexibility (I have low ankle RoM as well and it does my skiing no harm), the easiest way to get centred is to go ski on easier terrain. If you are struggling down steeper runs, don't go on them until you are skiing centred on green runs.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@jimmer, Wise advice!! It's difficult at Hemel because usually by the time I've sorted something out I'm at the bottom anyway, plus it's not that steep. I'll probably be sticking to blues tomorrow and (whilst still enjoying myself obviously!) trying to work it all out! This thread has been great for ideas to try, and regardless I will still see a physio when I get back!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Most important thing of all - have a blast tomorrow with your daughter
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I shall do my best!! I'm used to sleep deprivation so even if I hardly sleep on the train it won't seem any different to usual Daughter would sleep anywhere, like my son (who slept through a full orchestra mid afternoon at a family concert literally two feet away a few weekends ago, I kid you not..) so she'll be fine!
Hoping for a great time and of course a trip report when I get back!
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@sparklies, it can't be down to ankle flex. Whilst skiing you are, in effect, wearing a flexible cast which should allow your ankle minimum flex anyway (certainly less than required for running) so it's not that. Getting you weight forward is simply putting pressure on the front of the boot. You push on the tongue of the boot with your shin, it transfers the weight to the toe of the boot and the ski edges onto the snow more at the front than the back thus giving you control (not always desirable but let's assume you are on piste). In order to shift weight from one ski to another you have to rise and fall. The pole plant is simply a way of training your body to follow the pole so that you shift weight at the right time and do so whilst in a forward position (assuming its done correctly). I'd lose the heel lifts and start doing a ton of star jumps, squats and wall holds then focus on technique if I were you. Not planting/rising/falling will kill any chance of your skiing improving almost more than anything else.
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Interesting - just had a lecture from my Italian instructor who told me to try skiing with my hands behind my back - on a fairly steep red - as by putting my hands forward I was over-compensating and sitting back.
Most odd at first but it got my weight forward a treat and let me feel what it should have been like.
Maybe worth a try as a drill not recommended for much else I can firmly say after a long run with it!
Best of luck
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@sparklies, if you're still reading, I hope you have a fabulous day with your daughter.
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Using an Internet forum for ski technique advice will probably kill your chance of improving almost more than anything else.
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FAQ
Her 'problem' is clearly not yours though! 
