@Kenny, I'm curious. Just what do you mean by "immobilised"?
I'd submit that my feet are pretty firmly held, and that seems about right.
prevent (something or someone) from moving or operating as normal. .
If I over tighten the buckles my feet don't budge and I struggle to balance. They start hurting and they get cold. I feel it in the knees as well. With buckles not tight and I don't 'use' my feet the outside of my feet start to hurt and the boot feel like it is 2 sizes too big.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Kenny, Maybe you need better footbeds so that the default position of your foot gives you the stance you want.
It doesn't make any difference to me whether the buckles on my boots are tight or completely undone.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rjs wrote:
Kenny, Maybe you need better footbeds so that the default position of your foot gives you the stance you want.
It doesn't make any difference to me whether the buckles on my boots are tight or completely undone.
You may well be right. So.
What does the foot 'do' inside a ski boot? Should it be held in a default position? What is this default position?
Edit: I'm reasonably happy with my boots, don't start sowing the seeds of doubt!
Edit2: Do your boots come from Surefoot? This sounds like their philosophy. To make the footbed they put your foot in 'neutral' and measure the underside of your foot in their fancy machine. They then create a solid footbed and finish the job with a foam liner.
Edit3: Edited Edit2 to remove nonsense. Other nonsense remains intact .
Kenny, By 'default' I just mean whatever position each foot ends up in with your body weight pressing down on it and without you deciding to roll it one way or the other, I have set up my boots so that this doesn't change with buckle settings.
Boots are not from Surefoot, just race boots with standard thin race liners, footbeds were made by old Precision Ski in Val d'Isere about 15 years ago, the choice on how to align the footbeds within the boot and what modifications were needed to the shells were my own. They are fairly tight, 5mm shell fit, I don't get any heel lift even with the buckles undone but can roll my feet if I want.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rjs wrote:
Kenny, By 'default' I just mean whatever position each foot ends up in with your body weight pressing down on it and without you deciding to roll it one way or the other, I have set up my boots so that this doesn't change with buckle settings.
Boots are not from Surefoot, just race boots with standard thin race liners, footbeds were made by old Precision Ski in Val d'Isere about 15 years ago, the choice on how to align the footbeds within the boot and what modifications were needed to the shells were my own. They are fairly tight, 5mm shell fit, I don't get any heel lift even with the buckles undone but can roll my feet if I want.
My boots are not as beefy as race boots so perhaps that is why the buckles make more of a difference especially in +0 temperatures. The liners are zipfit so pretty comfortable. No slop or heel lift and I can also roll my feet from side to side.
If I modified your boots so you could no longer roll your feet do you think this would have an adverse affect on your skiing?
@Kenny, the reason for my question about what % of feet were unstable is because you posed one about a footbed stabilising unstable feet..... the figure commonly used in medical research is that over 80% of feet are unstable!! lets forget the terms pronation and supination for a minute, these are tri planar motions and if you can move the foot in all three planes of motion inside your ski boot you really need to change your fitter (irrespective of their ski teaching qualifications) you are right canada has some pretty out there views on ski boot fitting, but most of this comes from people trying to take what is done at a world cup level and transpose it downwards to recreational skiers, we have to remember that if you gave most world cup skiers a pair of rental boots they would still out ski the vast majority of skiers, they didn't get where they are just because of the boots.
so if 80% + of people have unstable feet, then it would figure that they could benefit from a footbed, the biggest problem is how footbeds are sold for the most part NOT what they actually do..... walk into your average ski shop and the stock protocol is measure the foot (sometimes) ask the skier what colour they like and go get that boot in the measured size from the stock room, have the skier WALK around in the boot and if they say it is comfortable bag it tag it and get onto the next one, if the customer gets the sales guy on a day where he wants some commission then he might mention a footbed on the way to the till....sadly this formula is the same to some degree whatever country you are in.
how about measure, select shell based on foot shape, skier ability and need, shell check to confirm size, discuss and educate the skier about underfoot support BEFORE trying the boot on..... the main reason i measure feet is not to see what size they are, but to understand the differences between a non weight bearing foot and a weight bearing foot, peoples feet change as weight is applied, it is this motion that we need to control, if we don't control it then people often end up in a boot too big as the foot has elongated by over a size, the long boot feels more comfortable (of course it would)
(apologies for techy bit but it is the only way to purvey the point) it is not about immobilising the foot, but equally you need to have a stable platform to work from... i hear all the time people (boot fitters) who have been trained by footbed company X saying how brand Y locks the foot and doesn't allow any flexibility, the truth is they have chosen to pick on one line used in the terminology about making the footbed... i will use an exact case and brand.... some fitters claim that the Superfeet custom product locks the foot (this was a common belief amongst fitters who did not understand biomechanics of the foot and ankle) and all because... "when pronating the forefoot against the rearfoot, the mid tarsal joint is LOCKED which put the sub talar joint into a neutral position" this is merely a terminology used to describe the fabrication process of the product, you have to have a position to start with and a stable foot rather than a loose bag of bones is a pretty good place to start... BTW there is still motion in the foot THE FOOT IS NOT LOCKED!
ok so to finalise my take on it is
select shell based on skiers foot size, shape and usage
use an appropriate footbed for the foot biomechanics, in terms of brand, material AND way it is made (non weighted, semi weighted of fully weighted) this could be something very soft and flexible or a more rigid product, understanding which is key and one of the reasons i studied pedorthics in the US back in 2002
adjust boot as required for cuff cant, and any lumps bumps etc
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
CEM wrote:
lets forget the terms pronation and supination for a minute, these are tri planar motions and if you can move the foot in all three planes of motion inside your ski boot you really need to change your fitter (irrespective of their ski teaching qualifications) you are right canada has some pretty out there views on ski boot fitting, but most of this comes from people trying to take what is done at a world cup level and transpose it downwards to recreational skiers, we have to remember that if you gave most world cup skiers a pair of rental boots they would still out ski the vast majority of skiers, they didn't get where they are just because of the boots.
Thanks for taking the time to post Colin all good stuff.
He didn't fit my boots, he is just one of the many I pester . Alternatively he is good fitter but for a different model of skiing. It seems like the foot is intended to be fairly passive inside your boots rather than, say, actively moving the ankles towards the walls of the boot* at the start of the turn. You wouldn't put a 'steering punch' in there to allow for this for example? Not looking for who is right and wrong BTW just examining the differences.
*is this a tri planar motion?
Edit: Harb skis with Canadian feet. Not surprising being Canadian!
Link should start at the appropriate place otherwise with 1:00 - 1:32.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
stuarth wrote:
@Kenny,
too much time on your hands again?...
Those tiles won't put themselves up, get grouting.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Decided to give myself the rest of the day off and go to the pub
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Kenny, ah, i now see your school of thought
1 yes sometimes i might put a "steering punch" into a boot, BUT it is dependant on the client
2 some of the work i have seen coming out of centre run by the person above is good, some is just utter crap and i or any member of my staff had done it i would be embarrassed
think we are going to have to agree to disagree with regard to some teaching methodologies ( and the boot fitting which comes from them)
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
CEM wrote:
@Kenny, ah, i now see your school of thought
1 yes sometimes i might put a "steering punch" into a boot, BUT it is dependant on the client
2 some of the work i have seen coming out of centre run by the person above is good, some is just utter crap and i or any member of my staff had done it i would be embarrassed
think we are going to have to agree to disagree with regard to some teaching methodologies ( and the boot fitting which comes from them)
Oh I have no opinion about the person in the video one way or another.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Kenny wrote:
CEM wrote:
@Kenny, ah, i now see your school of thought
1 yes sometimes i might put a "steering punch" into a boot, BUT it is dependant on the client
2 some of the work i have seen coming out of centre run by the person above is good, some is just utter crap and i or any member of my staff had done it i would be embarrassed
think we are going to have to agree to disagree with regard to some teaching methodologies ( and the boot fitting which comes from them)
Oh I have no opinion about the person in the video one way or another. But at least he talks about the feet
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
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