 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Simplest thing they could do is take the numbers out of it and just use the word descriptors low, moderate etc (some places already do). Backed up with the detailed info...
Mind you, given yesterday's performance from the masses in Les Arcs nothing they can do will make a blind bit of difference!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
Maybe I should amplify my opinion, based on recent observation. I don't think enough people understand the current scale - and don't dig deeper. Ergo, a better system is perhaps required.
We saw people in some very odd situations yesterday...which no scale would ever avoid, but maybe they'd think twice. |
I guess that was my reason for the original question, does the average piste based skier, who may dabble on some steeper stuff, need something clearer to aid their choice of runs.
I am not talking about a traffic light at the start of each run, just perhaps something that conveys the risk with greater clarity.
Does everyone really know the slope angle of every run they ski?, does everyone know what the off piste runs above the run they are doing is rated for in terms of avi.
I am happy the discussion has started but not happy at some of the direct digs and in particular at @layne
Let the discussions continue.
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@ansta1, This is why off-piste skiing is way more than just being able to make a turn. What "considerable risk" means is not being kept secret. If people are lazy to learn there is not much anyone can do. Information is readily available, but it's up to a user to learn to understand it. That's the aid to choose runs for "average piste skier", if he can't be asked to do it, maybe he'll be better off staying on piste. "Steep slope" in avalanche context is 30 degrees, but might be less than that - has happened in the past. So other factors on high risk days must be taken into account. And travel in the safest way possible. Don't go if you don't know where you are going.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The point is that you can't give the average person a simple answer as there isn't one particularly if they are unprepared to learn even the basics. Hazard varies around areas based on slope aspect, gradient, time of day, weather, slope history and other factors. The only route available then to make things safer is to remove the hazard as they do in North American resorts or remove the idiots from the hazard by greatly restricting access. Neither seems likely to gain much acceptance.
The problem is one of education rather than trying to reinvent the tools.
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^ yip
| BertieG wrote: |
As a punter one can't help feeling that in Europe we are given over simplified information, unless you are prepared to dig for it and there are vested interests that want to keep it that way. I have no evidence for this its just a gut feeling.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| @BertieG, agree that resorts could / should do more, although that would mean more detailed info rather than simplified info. |
There is loads of detailed information for the alps out there.
That is written specifically for each region and available for free in english.
With the internet we have never had better access to a wider variety of weather and avalanche resources.
For example here is the Swiss site.
The Italian, French and Austrian ones are just as good.
http://www.slf.ch/index_EN
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I'm amazed at how many people in the swiss avalanche thread have admitted to skiing offpiste without a transceiver, shovel and probe http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=116826 and how Stanton posts a very dodgy Video from a safety point of view (thought he would have known better) http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=110527&start=1040 but then hardly anybody comments .
Many people just don't seem to have a clue about general offpiste safety never mind avi warnings - perhaps someone should start a sticky safety thread.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 4-02-15 20:23; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Actually to revise my statement the answer for the average skier looking to go off piste with no knowledge is to hire a guide or suitably qualified instructor.
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That was quick. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| @BertieG, agree that resorts could / should do more, although that would mean more detailed info rather than simplified info. |
There is loads of detailed information for the alps out there.
That is written specifically for each region and available for free in english.
With the internet we have never had better access to a wider variety of weather and avalanche resources.
For example here is the Swiss site.
The Italian, French and Austrian ones are just as good.
http://www.slf.ch/index_EN |
Sure, plenty of info out there, but did you spot I said resorts? I'd like to see individual resorts provide a bit more resort specific guidance, perhaps putting the regional avy bulletin in to a local context. Hopefully this will help people who are not very experienced develop a greater understanding of conditions at that time, and perhaps develop a better understanding all round. It's not difficult, surely? Obviously resorts would want to exercise caution in terms of any liability, but specifying what pitches are above a certain gradient, their aspect, whether they are wind-loaded, perhaps pointing out terrain traps, major convexity, etc, perhaps with cross references to that days bulletin would be a valuable service? Resorts are doing more (info points, avalanche parks, etc), I'd just like to see that trend continue.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@rob@rar, i think that's a great counter point without just "learn to read an avi bulletin" and i guess the sort of thing i perhaps really should have said rather than just the general point which was badly pro positioned that 1-5 is perhaps bad or misleading.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
There is loads of detailed information for the alps out there.
That is written specifically for each region and available for free in english.
With the internet we have never had better access to a wider variety of weather and avalanche resources.
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I don't suppose you can point me to the Chamonix forecast in English ?
Personally speaking I'd say that the French have some way to go, which is a shame given the amount of terrain within their remit. Given the excellent resources available in multiple languages from the other Alpine countries it's odd.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| @BertieG, agree that resorts could / should do more, although that would mean more detailed info rather than simplified info. |
There is loads of detailed information for the alps out there.
That is written specifically for each region and available for free in english.
With the internet we have never had better access to a wider variety of weather and avalanche resources.
For example here is the Swiss site.
The Italian, French and Austrian ones are just as good.
http://www.slf.ch/index_EN |
Sure, plenty of info out there, but did you spot I said resorts? I'd like to see individual resorts provide a bit more resort specific guidance, perhaps putting the regional avy bulletin in to a local context. Hopefully this will help people who are not very experienced develop a greater understanding of conditions at that time, and perhaps develop a better understanding all round. It's not difficult, surely? Obviously resorts would want to exercise caution in terms of any liability, but specifying what pitches are above a certain gradient, their aspect, whether they are wind-loaded, perhaps pointing out terrain traps, major convexity, etc, perhaps with cross references to that days bulletin would be a valuable service? Resorts are doing more (info points, avalanche parks, etc), I'd just like to see that trend continue. |
To be honest I think that's just more likely to point people in the direction of slopes to try, that they maybe shouldn't be on
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| To be honest I think that's just more likely to point people in the direction of slopes to try, that they maybe shouldn't be on |
I'm not so sure it can get any worse. You saw offpisteskiing's post about skier triggered avalanches in Les Arcs yesterday (?), including a group led by an ESF instructor? I know that slope reasonably well and wouldn't go anywhere near it at avy 4. I'm sure that the posters at their Col de Chal office could do a good job of explaining that slope, it's current condition and cross-referencing it to th regional bulletin. It probably wouldn't stop everyone getting into a 'powder frenzy', but it might help some, so for me it's worth doing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| To be honest I think that's just more likely to point people in the direction of slopes to try, that they maybe shouldn't be on |
I'm not so sure it can get any worse. You saw offpisteskiing's post about skier triggered avalanches in Les Arcs yesterday (?), including a group led by an ESF instructor? I know that slope reasonably well and wouldn't go anywhere near it at avy 4. I'm sure that the posters at their Col de Chal office could do a good job of explaining that slope, it's current condition and cross-referencing it to th regional bulletin. It probably wouldn't stop everyone getting into a 'powder frenzy', but it might help some, so for me it's worth doing. |
I do see your point about the most obvious slopes, but I think if resorts actively start listing offpiste slopes it might just give people more ideas.
EDIT: Or do you just mean on the lifts accessing said slopes? That would for sure be better than putting it all online.
Tbh I'd actually be in favour of an outright ban (and fines for it) on offpiste skiing without proper equipment - maybe if people know they need safety equipment they'll recognise how dangerous it can be and start thinking that maybe they need to actually learn about it first.
Probably not practical though, and I don't really like the idea of controlling how people are allowed to take risks.
OTOH, it would leave a lot more powder for the rest of us
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| @BertieG, agree that resorts could / should do more, although that would mean more detailed info rather than simplified info. |
There is loads of detailed information for the alps out there.
That is written specifically for each region and available for free in english.
With the internet we have never had better access to a wider variety of weather and avalanche resources.
For example here is the Swiss site.
The Italian, French and Austrian ones are just as good.
http://www.slf.ch/index_EN |
Sure, plenty of info out there, but did you spot I said resorts? I'd like to see individual resorts provide a bit more resort specific guidance, perhaps putting the regional avy bulletin in to a local context. Hopefully this will help people who are not very experienced develop a greater understanding of conditions at that time, and perhaps develop a better understanding all round. It's not difficult, surely? Obviously resorts would want to exercise caution in terms of any liability, but specifying what pitches are above a certain gradient, their aspect, whether they are wind-loaded, perhaps pointing out terrain traps, major convexity, etc, perhaps with cross references to that days bulletin would be a valuable service? Resorts are doing more (info points, avalanche parks, etc), I'd just like to see that trend continue. |
I think you are asking for resorts to provide a level of certainty that simply isn't possible to provide in an off piste environment ?
The only other solution is to create itinerary runs (such as Verbiers Vallon Darby or Tortin).
Most big resorts even bomb some of the most popular off piste routes before the lifts open from helicopter.
However europe ultimately has a long tradition of either being on or off piste - which is something i personally appreciate.
When off piste you take responsibility for yourself, decision making, route choice, actions and risk.
European resorts generally do a reasonable amount to promote safety.
Many organise avalanche talks, beacon parks or help promote guide books / freeride zones.
Some even have local guides at the ski patrol office offering free advice.
However the only way to get proper local knowledge is to spend time on the ground skiing and speaking to people ?
At the end of the day an avalanche forecast is just a prediction / estimate of a constantly changing environment.
What skiers need to do is learn to adapt to the mountain ?
Rather than expecting the mountain to be adapted for them ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| EDIT: Or do you just mean on the lifts accessing said slopes? That would for sure be better than putting it all online. |
Yes, the obvious routes which are easily accessed by lift. I'm not saying it's a perfect plan, but I think with a bit of careful effort resorts could help their visitors develop a better understanding of slope safety using real life examples of slopes in that resort rather than relying on regional bulletins.
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^ I agree bulletins *could* provide more local information about specific spots.
However skiers may expect reliable YES or NO answers.
Which we all know isn't possible in the ever changing mountain environment ?
Plus where do you start with large resorts like Cham, 3 Valleys or Verbier...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ I agree bulletins *could* provide more local information about specific spots.
However skiers may expect reliable YES or NO answers. |
That's perhaps the first lesson. No such thing as an absolute guarantee that a slope is safe to ski/not safe to ski. But that shouldn't mean that resorts don't try to provide specific factual information as an aid to skiers making better judgements about where they should ski.
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Plus where do you start with large resorts like Cham, 3 Valleys or Verbier... |
Classic routes, obvious routes, the slopes in the PIDA, places which get tracked out within 3 hours, etc. Plenty of criteria upon which resorts could decide what terrain they provide information on.
None of this is a failsafe guarantee. None of this would stop idiots from being idiotic. But I suspect a lot of this information is already well know to resorts, in general terms as well as time specific information. Just a bit of extra effort, and perhaps a small cultural change, could make this more easily available to skiers who do want to learn a bit more about the resort they are in but aren't sure how to go about it
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R@R, has a good point about idiots, also alcohol impairs judgement. I have seen alcohol impair people's judgement and take risks they would not take before lunch.
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@rob@rar, But regional reports are easily translated into local ones - they provide info on altitudes and aspects. If the person skiing the slope cannot even understand at what altitude he is or which way the slope is facing should they even go off-piste? And 30 degrees slopes can be easily figured out, with some practice and experience you don't even need specific tools after a while. Also resorts tend to rope off some entrances at least partially when they consider danger is high - that's another warning sign. Which "factual information" skiers want? Degree and aspect of each slope in the area? Times when avalanches occur? - the thing with certain risk levels is that if conditions are right a slope can slide at any time of a day. Avalanches usually release under increased loads not under timer. Windloaded slopes are not difficult to determine - it's visual and also there is an information on which way the wind was blowing, the same about convexities or terrain traps. There are actually whole books published about ski touring and off-piste skiing in most regions with descriptions of most popular routes and most common dangers and things to pay attention to. Again there is no way to force-feed this information to punters who won't be bothered to read avalanche bulletins or find out what they mean. Those who want to learn actually do learn about the place they are about to ski. The rest should stay on piste. And I would prefer if Alpine Nations didn't go the NA way by bombing everything within their reach to provide a sterile off-piste experience as it will only lead to even more ignorance. People need to take responsibility for themselves.
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Are the resorts liable if an avalanche occurs on a slope they thought was safe?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
The problem that I see right now is the type of risk, rather than the amount.
Normally l3 is quite manageable - a result of new snow or wind loading, which normally isn't too hard to identify and avoid as necessary.
Right now we're dealing with deep instabilities that are much much harder to predict, plus the risk of small wind pockets releasing and stepping down to the deeper instabilities, resulting in much larger avalanches.
I don't see any need to change the scale though; I think it works pretty well as it is. If you're not prepared to educate yourself enough to work with it, then go hire a guide or stick to the pistes. |
I believe the above quote is very true and very important and probably explains why many skiers with knowledge get caught out. if i understand correctly, besides greater unpredictability wrt triggering, depth hoar can lead to bigger than expected avalanches (due to taking full depth), and also slides on slopes less than 30 degrees (particularly if it gets wet)
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@ansta1, you are right, the human mind is very bad at judging slope angle. A black piste with hard snow at 25 degrees to me looks scarily steep from above, whereas a 35 degree powder field looks like nothing
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think the rose idea is a good one, I've never seen one but it would certainly help me better determine where to ski. I would like to see one at the bottom of each lift where one needs to use the lift pass. I also think that most skiers wouldn't bother to look up any info on a website, IMO most of them don't even know what the flags are for, but posting local info on a website would also be a good idea for those that would use it. My group are only starting to ski off piste and despite lessons, attending talks and reading online info only skiing two or three weeks a year means that every year I have to relearn stuff. If it was on a website I could go over local conditions while having breakfast each day.
Just my views.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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the avalanche level takes no account of the size of avalance that could occur.
even at level 3 a skier coud trigger a small local hot spot.
this could propogate and bring the entire slope down.
one thing worth noting is that slopes near ski lifts which get skied regularly usualy (but not alway) have lower risk.
regular skier tragic cuts up the slabs and stops weak layers growing.
this can lead to false sense of security the snow is stable.... Then the next day you venture away from resort onto similiar, but more remote, slopes and get caught out.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 5-02-15 8:40; edited 1 time in total
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@DB, Resorts in Europe usually put disclaimer that terrain outside markers are not controlled or patrolled. I believe in NA resorts can be sued in case of inbounds avalanches. Hence their lift passes cost so much more than in Europe as they need to cover more costs. Both for controlling/patrolling and for potential liability.
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You know it makes sense.
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Euro resorts are much larger than north american ones. The approach of securing all inbound terrain would be impractical in large alpine resorts like tignes
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@BertieG, no point denying it. While all resorts want us to be safe, there is an element of downplaying anything that would frighten punters away. Similarly resorts avoid publicising accidents and deaths
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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More people than ever before are venturing off piste. Some wil go with guides, some will seek out information, but I suspect most will just follow tracks. It is this growing number that need to be reached out to and warned/educated. I think it can be done far more proactively using more detailed information and social media etc.
It must be better for resorts to frighten a few punters rather than sending them home in bags?
In this season with the hidden layer of instability it is even more important to explain this to people who are on holiday and just want to have fun.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| meh wrote: |
| Actually to revise my statement the answer for the average skier looking to go off piste with no knowledge is to hire a guide or suitably qualified instructor. |
Totally agree with this comment. Although I mostly go off piste without a guide these days (but with full safety gear plus ABS backpack and after looking at the weather, avi risk and touring route avi risk). I spent a lot of my earlier days going off piste with a guide and for the serious stuff I still book a guide. I instinctively do things (e.g. leaving spaces on a traverse, not skiing above others, stopping at a place out of danger, only let one person on a tricky slope one at a time to avoid a multiple burials) that I see many others don't which IHMO increases the risk.
Maybe time with a guide and a test should be compulsory before people are allowed to venture into the back country.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Avalanche safety is about risk assessment and risk mitigation. The nature of risk is slippery - uncertain, probabilistic, changing, multi-factor. Risk mitigation requires decisions and tactics at multiple levels (what do we ski, when do we ski it, how do we ski it, what does the new information we have got from starting to ski it tell us about our original risk assessment).
I'm making it sound very complex. That's because it is. I don't think you could sensibly simplify the avalanche warning system beyond the rose. Or tighten up the definitions in a 5 point (or more point) scale without pretending that situation was simpler than it is.
If you can't understand the rose and how to apply it then you need professional help before you go off-piste in 3 and above. I don't think that can be in the form of someone telling you "yes that slope and that slope should be OK today" - you need to be accompanied by someone who can react to the conditions as you ski them. It may also only be safe if you ski it the right way - choice of line, points of safety etc.
When I'm making my own decisions, I try to build in a load of safety margin. e.g.,
"Level 3 = slopes > 30 degrees maybe ok (with caution!)"
I very rarely ski slopes > 30 degrees at level 3. They would have to be right elevation, short, with very good run out.
In fact I am generally reluctant to ski big open powder slopes > 30 degrees without a guide at any risk level (but then how often do you get big open >30 degrees powder slopes below level 3 without touring - they generally get skied out before the risk drops to 2).
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The current system works for me as is. It's kind of important to read the additional info on Aspect, Altitude, time of day also. Ultimately there are a number of factors which are to be considered, which inevitably means that decisions have 'layers'. Skiers need to be able to make informed decisions, it isn't really complex, but its not something to be taken lightly.
Additionally it could be a legal minefield to over simplify as it may shift responsibility from the skier to the resort or organisation promoting 'safe' conditions.
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3rd post down my opening line was:
I think the big problem is not with the levels themselves but more the understanding of what they mean.
Just saying...
Maybe I should have left it at that.
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For thos wanting to understand the rose, the SAIS have produced a simple pdf:
http://www.sais.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Interpreting-Avalanche-Reports.pdf
There seems to be an attitude that ski resorts/"the man" should spoon feed everyone all the info and remove the responsibilty of the skier/individual. It's my life and I take responsibilty for it. I've educated myself, I'll read the avalnche forecast, I'll have checked the weather, I'll ski defensively if required and I'll make constant assesments of the risk. At no point do I think, well, someone I have never met says it's "Level 3" so I can ski off-piste safely. None of this means I won't cock up but it gives me the best chance and If I do, it'll be MY fault.
If you want to ski off-piste, you need to take responsibility.
P.S. Haggis Trap, the rose is a little different, the dots are now bands (I preferd the dots....)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Layne, But whose fault is this lack of understanding? Certainly not the resorts as they don't hide any information and education is available. It's the same with understanding of most things - people either try to educate themselves or they don't. It's a problem but it's not for resorts to solve it beyond of what they already do.
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@never summer,
| Quote: |
| It's a problem but it's not for resorts to solve it beyond of what they already do. |
I wouldn't be comfortable with aportioning blame. It's easy to blame "the poodles" and in many cases may be rightfully be so. However, as I think Weathercam said earlier if 56 people died in the seas off the coast of the UK in a couple of months in a single recreational activity something (regulation) would probably be done. I remember when I was just starting out skiing (maybe on Blizzard of Agghs) Americans talking about the lack of regulation in Europe compared to the US. They saw as a good thing, maybe it is a good thing. But maybe there is a price.
It's all a bit of a shame and a bit worrying. Will this come back on "us" in the form of more restrictions/expense in terms of insurance, where we are allowed to ski, etc. Or maybe it will quieten down and be forgotten though.
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FAQ
