In regards to mud tyres, fresh snow they are ace. Compacted and icy conditions they're not so clever. AT tyres seem to handle the mixed conditions better. I found mud tyres at speed on slush very ropey whereas dedicated winter tyres a lot more secure.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@Pedantica, @holidayloverxx, egg all over face (or perhaps Belgian chocolate!) - I had simply forgotten the word I'm afraid! Mea Culpa, mea culpa mea, maxima culpa. My sister in law will now kick me out of the family I'm sure!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I have a question. I drive a Jeep Wrangler fully customised for off road use mainly mud. It's a true 4x4 with 33 inch Mickey Thomson mud tyres with 4 high and 4 low gearing. Will I need winter tyres or will just chains be OK.
Mud tyres with deep tread will usually cut through snow, however the wider the tyre, the more likely that are to lose traction in snow / ice.
But probably more important is the local legal requirements. Some French resorts have the Gendarmes waiting on the mountain roads enforcing either a 'proper' winter tyre (mountain with snowflake symbol on side) or chains.
Given mud tyres don't normally have a snowflake symbol, I'd take chains just in case even if you don't end up needing to put them on.
In regards to mud tyres, fresh snow they are ace. Compacted and icy conditions they're not so clever. AT tyres seem to handle the mixed conditions better. I found mud tyres at speed on slush very ropey whereas dedicated winter tyres a lot more secure.
Agreed, I have a set of GG AT2s on my Defender and they are unstoppable in the winter.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Jonpim wrote:
@Gaza, brilliant video. Should be shown to every snowhead.
Note: in video they only put winter tyres on front (drive) wheels - i am advised that much better to have winter tyres on all 4 wheels.
First, even though we are continent divided it's heartwarming to witness at least some of you who realize the critical importance of snow tires. No comparison to so called "all-season" (summer) tires which under winter conditions are an inherent abject failure. Sadly, the overwhelming majority of idiots, I mean "people" in my country believe that "all-season" tires work just fine, least of which not being the 4wd gang and I drive 4wd with studded snow tires, thank you. I even carry fitted chains in our cars if need be and at one location they are sometimes needed.
In 2wd application (front or my preferred rear) regardless, you have to run four snow tires. Running two is just begging for serious trouble. Many tire shops will neither sell only two nor so much as even touch a car that already has only two for liability reasons................. Too many crashes with just two. Not surprisingly a tow tuck driver told me one time the highest percentage each winter of those whom he and his fellow drivers tow after going off/wrecking are 4wd with, that's right, "all-season" tires. Small wonder.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 28-12-14 18:17; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
Peter S wrote:
Winters on the front are OK in the UK as long as don't try to drive at normal speeds in the snow. Not acceptable on snow covered roads in countries where you are expected to drive at higher speeds however.
Exactly. Winters on the drive wheels only is basically a substitute for snow chains and need to be driven like that (ie extremely slowly, extremely cautiously, bailing out completely when the conditions are too bad for the terrain.) If that AE video above were filmed on a downhill slope, the rear of the car would have done a full 180.
And I'm told that a rear-wheel drive car is a handling nightmare on just two winters, even when they're fitted correctly (ie on the drive wheels), and shouldn't ever be contemplated.
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Quote:
I have a set of GG AT2s on my Defender and they are unstoppable in the winter.
Aye, without the full siping and winter specific rubber compound that you'll get with proper winter road tyres, I can well imagine them being unstoppable.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
moffatross wrote:
Quote:
I have a set of GG AT2s on my Defender and they are unstoppable in the winter.
Aye, without the full siping and winter specific rubber compound that you'll get with proper winter road tyres, I can well imagine them being unstoppable.
I like your humour, but they are 'proper' winter tyres!
You maybe getting confused with GG ATs
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I rolled my Patrol off the road this time last year with studded AT tyres. Black ice and rear wheel drive is no fun, particularly in traffic!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Winter tyres (the term 'snow tyres' doesn't have any official definition) use very different compounds specifically designed to operate better under 7ºC even on tarmac, where stopping distances are significantly reduced as the temperatures fall below the magic 7ºC. The numerous grooves ('sipes') are also designed to do two things, (a) increased tread squirm which increases rubber temperature which increases adhesion on any surface and (b) trap snow in them and ensure snow-on-snow adhesion (which is better than rubber-on-snow).
So whilst your off-road mud tyres may look impressive, they are in many ways no better than standard summer tyres in low temperatures and snow. Their tread compound is effectvely a summer compound, and the the big tread pattern won't help as much re the 'squirm effect'. Although the tread pattern on you mud tyres may help somewhat with trapped 'snow-on-snow' adhesion, not all mud tyres have the right pattern, so this isn't guaranteed.
To complicate things, the 'M&S' (Mud & Snow) designation on agricultural-type tyres is very confusing - it should really not include the 'S' as the compounds isn't a winter one i.e. M&S does not mean it's a winter tyre. And to really complicate things, however, there are a few M&S tyres which are also certified Winter tyres (with the 'mountain-and-snowflake' symbol confirming this on the sidewall. Generally, however, M&S isn't Winter.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 28-12-14 17:10; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@trainee snowboard jedi, Haha yeah, OK, they're siped. My mistake.
The thought came to mind because I've recently had to do a bit of driving up and down boggy, snowy off-road near a hill-top here in the South of Scotland in my Haldex drive-trained Skoda with winter road tyres and it hasn't bogged down when notably, both a Defender and a Hyundai pick-up with regular chunkies did.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Chains it is then.
Thanks for the replies.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@mooney058, I am booking a car from verona airport for a months time and have a choice of either winter tyres or snow chains as part of the hire...I take it from your posts I should be going for the snow tyres?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
mooney058 wrote:
@sarah, can you tell me the model of your tyres pls and whether you drive these tyres in summer conditions?
Sorry missed this last night, yes they are Vredestein Wintracs. No these haven't been driven through the summer. We have a spare set of wheels and swap the wheels over generally Nov and April. When the winters are nearly worn out we'll run them through the summer and then get new otherwise we swap them.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Don't know how the replies got you from ...
cyberil wrote:
It's a true 4x4 with 33 inch Mickey Thomson mud tyres with 4 high and 4 low gearing. Will I need winter tyres or will just chains be OK.
To ...
cyberil wrote:
Chains it is then.
Thanks for the replies.
But good luck.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'm reading here about chains should be used in deep deep snow.? What constitutes deep snow. I use a long wheel base shogun when I am in the Alpes (obviously with good snow tyres) and found these more then suitable driving in several inces of fresh.
Yesterday vehicles had to have chains on their tyres to access La Plagne.
Snow tyres only were not allowed up the road to the resort.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
My Discovery on AT2s was rubbish compared to when I put proper snow symbol tyres on. They had no sipes and also were of normal rubber compound. The difference was exactly the same as going from a summer tyre to winter tyre in my normal car.
Re chains:
First and key question is 'Can your vehicle's wheels accommodate chains?'
If the answer 'No' then it means that you'll need new wheels and tyres. And if so, you might as well make them Winter Tyres. As it happens, as Renry mentions, you'll probably then never need chains anyway, unless you (a) are really stuck or (b) they're mandated by the police.
So check your tyre spec: the format is {tyre width}mm/{aspect ratio}% - {speed rating} - {wheel diameter} e.g. 225/40 V 18 means 255mm wide tyre, 90mm sidewall, V Speed category, 18" wheel.
Then look at the owner's manual and see if the wheel carrying this is certified to take chains. Generally, lower profile wheels aren't. But you won't get a chain retailer to admit it. Or ask your garage.
For example, on my model of Audi A3, I can fit 16", 17" or 18" wheels, but chains can only be fitted to the 16/17" wheels, not the 18".
And yes, I know there are lightweight chains that probably work on my 18" wheels, but consider the insurance implications: any claims company is going to be delighted that you're operating an 'uncertified' setup so they can reject your claim. And 'probably' isn't going to be any consolation when you take that sharp hairpin in a fully-loaded car in a blizzard and hear a massive crunching noise from the brake pipes/suspension.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 28-12-14 19:47; edited 2 times in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
emwmarine wrote:
My Discovery on AT2s was rubbish compared to when I put proper snow symbol tyres on. They had no sipes and also were of normal rubber compound. The difference was exactly the same as going from a summer tyre to winter tyre in my normal car.
Not sure what size tyres you are putting on your Disco, but GG AT2 235/85R16 (standard Defender out of the factory size) have a snowflake symbol and they are best tyres I've personally had on a car. The Mrs has Michelin Latitude Alpin 2, also with a snowflake symbol on her Evoque and they're good (including the LR terrain response system) but not as good as my GG AT2s, especially up the local icy hills in the Chilterns where we live.
moffatross wrote:
@trainee snowboard jedi, Haha yeah, OK, they're siped. My mistake.
The thought came to mind because I've recently had to do a bit of driving up and down boggy, snowy off-road near a hill-top here in the South of Scotland in my Haldex drive-trained Skoda with winter road tyres and it hasn't bogged down when notably, both a Defender and a Hyundai pick-up with regular chunkies did.
Understandable as most people owning a Defender seem to run BF Goodrich A/T (current fashion) which are chunky and good on mud but not the best on ice / compacted snow.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I've got the A/T's on my L200, it was great going uphill past stuck cars in the snow last winter, on the way down it was like Bambi on ice!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Boredsurfing wrote:
Yesterday vehicles had to have chains on their tyres to access La Plagne.
Snow tyres only were not allowed up the road to the resort.
Snow tyres only on 4x4s?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
It is a problem for 4x4 owners when the manufacturer opts to put unchain-able wheels on the UK spec. I previously had a Jeep Grand Cherokee and when I asked the garage about chains they said that for the English market, they put on lower-profile wheels and tyres than on the US version, and that there was no factory-build option to fit narrower wheels! So I could fit Winter Tyres OK, but not chains. I asked what was I meant to do when stopped in the Alps and told to put on chains by the Gendarmes? Their only solution was to buy a new set of wheels .....
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
msej449 wrote:
Winter tyres (the term 'snow tyres' doesn't have any official definition) use very different compounds specifically designed to operate better under 7ºC even on tarmac, where stopping distances are significantly reduced as the temperatures fall below the magic 7ºC. The numerous grooves ('sipes') are also designed to do two things, (a) increased tread squirm which increases rubber temperature which increases adhesion on any surface and (b) trap snow in them and ensure snow-on-snow adhesion (which is better than rubber-on-snow).
So whilst your off-road mud tyres may look impressive, they are in many ways no better than standard summer tyres in low temperatures and snow. Their tread compound is effectvely a summer compound, and the the big tread pattern won't help as much re the 'squirm effect'. Although the tread pattern on you mud tyres may help somewhat with trapped 'snow-on-snow' adhesion, not all mud tyres have the right pattern, so this isn't guaranteed.
To complicate things, the 'M&S' (Mud & Snow) designation on agricultural-type tyres is very confusing - it should really not include the 'S' as the compounds isn't a winter one i.e. M&S does not mean it's a winter tyre. And to really complicate things, however, there are a few M&S tyres which are also certified Winter tyres (with the 'mountain-and-snowflake' symbol confirming this on the sidewall. Generally, however, M&S isn't Winter.
Yep, big problem. The M & S tyre means nothing as there is no industry standard so anyone can put it on the side of their tyre. The snowflake symbol has to pass various industry agreed tests in order to display it.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
My car will take chains but I've never needed them and have driven roads that have been gated closed in drifting blizzards, and winter tyres have served fine. In conditions when the floor pan is occasionally grounding on compacted snow, Rud 'soft spikes' are my answer and for traction, they're as good as chains IMO. They're also much easier to deploy than chains, won't rust, and are just fine on a bit of tarmac without suffering the shredding problem that snow socks are known for.
Winter tyres took me 5 miles up this road in Galloway with about 12 inches of level snow, bumper acting as a plough. We dug out most of the drift on a hill corner then got past it with Rud Soft Spikes.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 28-12-14 19:54; edited 2 times in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
darbyrw wrote:
@mooney058, I am booking a car from verona airport for a months time and have a choice of either winter tyres or snow chains as part of the hire...I take it from your posts I should be going for the snow tyres?
Milan airport rentals once gave me a winter package that included - summer tyres (different one on the left an right sides - that is different summer tyres on the same axles ...) and a set of chains that were broken which I unfortunately realised only when stuck in Tignes .... If your car is from a rental company, they should be ok (unless overused). Not all winter tyres are equal
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@msej449, my understanding, without researching very deeply is that the CVT gets upset with wildly different traction front vs rear.
But not a problen in 8 years of living and working in Geneva and Chamonix.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@cyberil a friend of mine nearly slid off a snowy embankment in his 4x4 Landrover a couple of years ago- apparently 4x4 is only useful if you can get a grip!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
under a new name wrote:
Boredsurfing wrote:
Yesterday vehicles had to have chains on their tyres to access La Plagne.
Snow tyres only were not allowed up the road to the resort.
Snow tyres only on 4x4s?
Nope, Chains only all vehicles. Even with snow tyres put chains on or do not drive up or down!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
equinoxranch wrote:
Jonpim wrote:
@Gaza, brilliant video. Should be shown to every snowhead.
Note: in video they only put winter tyres on front (drive) wheels - i am advised that much better to have winter tyres on all 4 wheels.
First, even though we are continent divided it's heartwarming to witness at least some of you who realize the critical importance of snow tires. No comparison to so called "all-season" (summer) tires which under winter conditions are an inherent abject failure. Sadly, the overwhelming majority of idiots, I mean "people" in my country believe that "all-season" tires work just fine, least of which not being the 4wd gang and I drive 4wd with studded snow tires, thank you. I even carry fitted chains in our cars if need be and at one location they are sometimes needed.
In 2wd application (front or my preferred rear) regardless, you have to run four snow tires. Running two is just begging for serious trouble. Many tire shops will neither sell only two nor so much as even touch a car that already has only two for liability reasons................. Too many crashes with just two. Not surprisingly a tow tuck driver told me one time the highest percentage each winter of those whom he and his fellow drivers tow after going off/wrecking are 4wd with, that's right, "all-season" tires. Small wonder.
All season must mean something different in the USA, we use Goodyear vector all season tyres on our smax and they blast summer tyres into the ditch when it snows. Although the manual says chains can't be used with the tyre size we have we have used chains with no ill effects but normally use snowsocks that have got us through anything that the clearance under the car will allow.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Boredsurfing, badly programmed gendarmes then not even very much snow
Poeple from Belgium are called belgians.
Many people from the northern, dutch-speaking part of Belgium even preferred to be called "flemish" because they feel more related to Flanders (except when they are talking about french fries, waffles, chocolate, Manneke Pis or the "Belgian Red Devils" when they are playing well).
As far as driving goes for many of my fellow belgians:
Half of them really s*ck at driving. A little bit of rain or snow and suddenly they start acting as complete fools on the road. My middle finger gets tired of flipping everyone of when I'm driving on our highways.
I'm sorry for all the brittish (or was it Englands?) on the forum but you guys aren't always the best drivers either. Some seem to doubt between driving left or right on european highways so they keep driving in the middle
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@dries_v, lane hogging is sadly most definitely a British bad habit , but it is prevalent on British motorways too, so I don't think it has anything to do with driving on the opposite side of the road. This is despite a new law being passed recently to make it an offence.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Hells Bells
A lot of belgians do it too unfortunately. I think in most european countries it's an offence as well (it definitely is in Belgium and The Netherlands)
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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We use 4 of these http://image.delti.com/tyre-pictures/h300/Brands/Nankang/125/Profil_sw-7_WM.jpg on our 2wd, and nokians on the defender and freelander.
There is a misconception that studded tyres are not legal in France, but this is not the case. In Haute Savoie they are permitted on mountain roads from November till the end of March. Gendarmes advised me that I could use them into April if there was still snow on the roads, as the address at which the vehicle is registred is at altitude (1250m). Normally a set of studded tyres lasts us 2 winters, but changing front and back for the second winter. We still carry chains in all 3 vehicles (legal requirement).
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
So we have winter tyres on our car that we are driving to the Alps in that seem to work pretty well. We did try to fit our snow chains once up in La TAnia as it was deep but struggled (OH has Raynaud's so loses sensation in his fingers very rapidly)/ I've seen some Thule 'quick fit' snow chains that can allegedly be fitted in 12 seconds each. Anyone tried these? Are they worth the investment?
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Poster: A snowHead
