 Poster: A snowHead
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@jedster, on reflection
a. you learned iirc on old skule skis and
b. it occurs to me that maybe if the skier isn't yet capable of making those movements, I can see how it might be a problem...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This thread has been interesting. I noticed this year that I didn't really suffer from thigh burn at all and I simply put it down to improved fitness. In hindsight, following this thread, possibly more to do with my new boots (Lange RX 120's) and ski posture rather than skiing in my 15yr old soft slipper like Salomon Evo boots.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Must confess, 'cos I was taught to ski on anything, that all this angle stuff at lest seems a lot of balls. But there are some skis I like better than others... |
I'd have generally agreed with that.
One of the things I found with boots I'm riding at the moment (Scarpa SLs, DIN soles) is that in their out of the box setting if I tightened the uppers, then it wrecked my fore\aft balance to the point where hi performance carving was problematic. A looser upper boot and I was able to adjust. To resolve this I increased the forward lean things improved.
A switch to AT soles suggests that I should perhaps adjust to a more upright lean is required, but it all gets to be a bit of a fafff..... !
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| Quote: |
a. you learned iirc on old skule skis and
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yes - can't pretend, I am that old. 
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To resolve this I increased the forward lean things improved.
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Must admit, when I last bought boots I did find that more upright models just felt odd. One's with more lean just felt "right" from a stance point of view. So it's not as if I don't have some preferences.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Must confess, 'cos I was taught to ski on anything, that all this angle stuff at lest seems a lot of balls. But there are some skis I like better than others... |
Some folks are just more sensitive to it than others. Plus, if you think about it, the taller you are the more adjustment you'll need to make! Just sayin' 
I regularly have requests to set-up bindings a particular way & they're all from high end skiers/instructors/races who know what their optimum set-up is. And Vist, who specialise in race plates/binding etc, make a range of different thickness toe & heel shims specifically to adjust the delta angle. The demand for these items is consumer driven.
Think of it as driving with your seat one click/notch too far forward or back - it's not dangerous & you're still in perfect control but it's not the most/best natural/ergonomic position for you but no one leaves the seat like that for long as the solution is obvious.
In skiing the solution isn't obvious at all & the usual symptom of backseat skiing is generally put down to be a technique issue. But there as those who have good posture/technique combined with a properly sized boot that they can flex correctly yet they still feel in the backseat or, occasionally, feel that they're too far forward with a 'over the handlebars' feeling.
Unfortunately very few bootfitters have the kit/knowledge to correctly 'balance' the fore/aft/lateral set-up of the boots. The equipment used sets up the skier when in their ideal static balance. Now skiing is dynamic not static and requires constant changes in fore/aft/lateral balance but when out of balance your brain will try to bring you back to your static balance position - & if that's not accurate it's then got to readjust again. In your static balanced position you will be skeletonally stacked so your bones are holding you up leaving your muscles for fine control but if your balance is out your big muscles will be doing all the support work & will burn out pretty quickly no matter how fit you are. When being tested on one of the balancing machines it's amazing how minute adjustment take you from perfectly balanced to falling over.
I've got three pairs of boots (all different makes/models) all of which fit me perfectly without any shell modifications etc however in their stock form they're radically different from each other (ie forward lean/laterally canting etc) which makes the switch from one to another very difficult & none of them ski that great for me even though they all fit really well. However once adjusted* to suit my natural static balance they all ski superbly & I don't have to make any changes at all.
*The adjustments are as follows:
Atomic 130 alpine boot: 2.5 degree canting strips & Vist bindings shimmed to give -2mm delta (ie toe high)
Technical Cochise 120: 1 degree canting strips, 1mm heel lift & Vist/Beast bindings shimmed to zero delta
Dynafit Mercury 110: cuffs set 17 degrees, 2 degree canting strips & Beast/Rad 2 bindings shimmed to +2mm delta
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 23-03-16 1:07; edited 1 time in total
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@spyderjon, for once a sensible comment regarding height. Or lack thereof 
I have no doubt that these things become very important at high performance levels.
I suspect that they are actually equally important at low performance levels as the lesser performant skier can't or doesn't have the skills to adapt.
But given that the vast majority of holiday skiers are coping with rental kit...
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@spyderjon, How did you come to those settings ? I feel a measuring session coming on 
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| under a new name wrote: |
.........I suspect that they are actually equally important at low performance levels as the lesser performant skier can't or doesn't have the skills to adapt.
But given that the vast majority of holiday skiers are coping with rental kit... |
Yes, definately agree that the more able are generally more able to adapt. And, following on from your earlier post, it would be interesting to analyse the set-up's of the skis you prefer v those you dislike. I'm a believer that when testing skis in the first few runs (which is all that most will do) you're really testing the binding set-up/position and the tune on the skis - and if they're not right the ski is likely to be dismissed.
IMO the relatively recent advent of rockered skis gives a greater requirement for a balanced centered stance, ie, my 190cm Ragnaroks only have a running length of a metre on hardpack!
And yes, the real beneficiaries of a precise set-up would
beginners as their movement patterns are so limited but then you could never convince a beginner that their properly fitted boots aren't too small. I, like most on this forum, now ski boots that are two sizes smaller than my first pair that were 'expertly' fitted by S&R back in the day.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| @spyderjon, How did you come to those settings ? I feel a measuring session coming on |
Dead easy matey. Simply book an appointment with CEM on one of his days when Andi McCann is working with him for the day with his Neutrilizer stance machiney thingy. They'll do any boot canting/tweaking adjustments necessary (that's proper canting adjustment not the mis-named canting on your boot cuff that's really cuff alignment) and they'll also give you a 'prescription' for your binding delta for which I can then provide shims if necessary. With some bindings getting the required screw lengths/head styles is difficult but if you're using QK inserts it's a doddle. QK inserts also makes DIY experimenting easy as well.
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@spyderjon, Cheers. I'm quite tempted to draft some CAD and see how 3d printed shims go.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@under a new name, the word there is coping. For me equipmemt problems were a major component of the intermediate plateau. Obviously getting them sorted did not make me better overnight but it did mean that I could make movements that I previously could not have done.
If you are close to the body shape the boot designer had in mind then all this is pretty irrelevant. If not then the payoffs from fixing any alignment issues are huge.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
it would be interesting to analyse the set-up's of the skis you prefer v those you dislike. I'm a believer that when testing skis in the first few runs (which is all that most will do) you're really testing the binding set-up/position and the tune on the skis - and if they're not right the ski is likely to be dismissed.
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@spyderjon, an interesting thought. I'd note that I've never hopped on a pair that I immediately liked and found I didn't like them after continued use. I have tried one or two pairs that I didn't like but that I got used to. Still, not sure that my general opinion changed. The two models that I really have not got on with at all were notably designed for big burly DH racers which is not my profile at all.
@gorilla, sure, I take your point, but I suspect the majority of folks fit within the design parameters of the equipment but that goes back to having correctly fitting (not necessarily fitted) kit.
I am wondering, leading on from Jon's comment re balance and rocker, how much of this conversation stems from current kit and technique. Other than gross misalignment requiring binding shims, to correct a big problem, in the 80s for example when much good skiing was going on, I think anyone who wasn't (or aspiring to be) WC was just getting on with what they had/were given.
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@under a new name, I went through this all about 8 years ago and the more I learn the more important setup and ski tuning is.... have a look at http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=44226&highlight=equipment
Equipment setup and ski tuning is HUGELY important to skiers who are too tall, too short, have long legs, have little boots or big boots. Period.
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You know it makes sense.
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@skimottaret, ski tuning without a doubt. I've not felt the need for additional finesse in my kit set up, myself.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@under a new name, you never felt the need or never tried it? Take one of your favourite pair of skis and modify with a 6mm shim under your heel and then again without... Report back
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Poster: A snowHead
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@skimottaret, not felt the need.
I did play quite a lot back in 1990 on teh then ESS (now Atomic) bindings which allowed fore and aft adjustment and decided it was rather cosmetic.
I am sure I'd notice a 6mm (!) shim under my heel or toe but I'm skeptical as to whether it would make me a better (or more comfortable) skier...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@under a new name, for aft adjustment on the ski is VERY different to Delta angle... I was skeptical as well but in a previous life was a robotics engineer and the mechanics was interesting to me as like you I wouldn't have thought it would make a big deal or that the body just compensated for slight set up differences. For me the results proved otherwise, it is a very big deal...
One thing to think about, fore aft balance is hugely important in skiing and as humans we are subconsciously programmed to fear falling forward, our bodies most sensitive reaction to disturbance is when pushed backwards. Our bodies react violently when pushed back or when slipping on ice etc. much more so than when pushed sideways or downwards etc. If, through poor equipment setup you are already in an out of balance state and are teetering on falling back you are constantly fighting to regain balance, can this be a good thing?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
for aft adjustment on the ski is VERY different to Delta angle
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This I know.
Interesting blog.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A few mm of ramp is significant in my experience, though it's is only in the last couple of years I've paid attention to it. As what body size it affects I'm probably close to average for adult men and women combined so I guess anyone could benefit from getting it right for them. Those with short boot soles will def. experience more degrees of ramp for a given difference in toe and heel height, and the resulting ramp angle on some of the kids kit I've seen is huge.
Conversely fore/aft binding mounting placement takes more than a few mm to be noticeable at all, again IME.
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| Quote: |
IMO the relatively recent advent of rockered skis gives a greater requirement for a balanced centered stance, ie, my 190cm Ragnaroks only have a running length of a metre on hardpack!
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That's probably true but its always been key to good skiing hasn't it? You can probably get away without it more with longer running length but if you aim to ski well you are going to have to achieve it on any kit. And if you couldn't centre your stance then you wouldn't really have any case for skiing on Ragnaroks anyway.
On a related topic, I've heard it said that modern boots tend to have a bit less forward lean and that this is related to modern ski design. As someone who generally finds more knee flex is better (always keeping balance centred) I don't really understand this. Is it true and why?
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@jedster, just my opinion: knee flex enables you to use large leg muscles to steer the skis, very much part of classic straight ski technique and still used for tight rotated turns and bumps. Modern skis turn themselves to a much greater extent just by standing centred on them, so you don't need the outside leg to bend as much for steering purposes. I expect you may also be able to find centred balance with a more upright boot once you got used to it.
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Guys, this is all very interesting reading and a bit..........no wait.....a lot over my head. however, i'm a middling intermediate skier, and like many of us numpties, spend too much time in the back seat, especially when it gets steep or bumpy. now my question is, as well as benefiting from more lessons, that's a given, should I be considering a 6mm shim under my feel to promote a better stance keeping my shins firmly up against my boots?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@under a new name, @gazzaredcruiser, I mentioned 6mm as quite a few bindings are 6mm heel high. There is no standard and this varies between manufactures. spyderjon has a good summary on his site http://pisteoffice.com/index.php/2013-09-09-17-07-34/ski-binding-delta-angles.html
Before messing with your skis try a little experiment. put your boots on and tighten as per normal skiing. Find a magazine, cd case or other shim material 5-10mm think and put one under the heels of each boot. Then flex and extend your ankles and knees as you would when skiing. Repeat without shims... Try to do this in front of a mirror to see if you are forced into the "back seat" when moving. If you don't notice any difference don't worry about Delta angle, if you do seek further help
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@skimottaret, oh I need further help alright 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Question for the heavily shimmed? Does it mean that you can't just leap on a rental ski or demo and be able to ski it properly? I can appreciate your planed boots carry over but ramp is different on different bindings no?
And how does someone just starting out know its a biomech issue rather than a technique/mileage problem? The CD shim test above?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@gazzaredcruiser, Did you have a go at my experiment? Most people dismiss setup as a minor tweaking exercise but I have seem big improvements to peoples skiing after getting their alignment checked and equipment modified.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Sure I can get on rental skis that are badly tuned with delta angles that are wrong for me and ski on them but no where near to the best of my ability. Same as I could use hire boots and slide around but couldn't get any performance from them.
For me it makes a very big and noticeable difference, not just a little better or faster.
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You know it makes sense.
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Here is a video of a long time client who after careful review of his equipment I suggested to have his alignment done and ski bindings adjusted. He is a good skier around an 8 on our scale. The video was done within weeks of pre and post alignment with no practice time after the alignment modifications
https://vimeo.com/34910087
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@skimottaret, From Jon's info... my daily skiers have Marker Dukes with Alpine boots (0mm), I get on very well with my old Rossi FKS (+5mm) on my 9Xs (somewhat dated) with some sort of flat plate, my much loved SLs (R.I.P.) had Markers of some description which I believe were +5mm on Nordica branded Vist plates which I think added 2-3mm, etc.
I really don't think I have a problem.
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Poster: A snowHead
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you might think you don't have a problem but are you sure you couldn't benefit from having your alignment checked? I don't quite understand your scepticism...
a few mm's may not seem like much but as an example have you skied SL skis with a 0 degree base angle compared to a 1 degree? Totally different feel to the skis but only 1 degree...[/i]
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@skimottaret, that's different. Why would you want a base angle on SLs?
As above, I routinely ski on deltas from (if the quoted numbers are correct) 0 to 6-7 degrees with no problem or lack of comfort (same boots in all cases).
I just don't think that in most cases for your average 1-2 week UK holiday skier that it's the first thing to look at when their thighs get tired too quickly...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@under a new name, you should probably measure your various skis delta to confirm. Easy to do really and they may be all similar and fine for you...
Don't disagree that technique is the main culprit but set up can be a major issue... Did you watch the video of the couple of week UK holiday client above?
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A quick and dirty measure gives the follow differences front to rear. Rear being higher:
Market Baron (AT) +11mm
Radical 2 +8mm, maybe more (measured with boot in place).
Fritchi Explore +2mm
Rossie Rail system +2mm (Alpine)
327mm sole length.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@skimottaret, I did watch it but couldn't really see an enormous differeece - maybe a bit better edging post-adjustment? a bigger difference being in the fridge as opposed to a mountain I thought (but what do I know ...?)
I will have a wee measure of them. 'Twill be interesting. But won't happen till the weekend.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, regarding fore/aft balance the quick and dirty test is to clip in and squat. If your armpits are over your knees then you're good to go. Long way forward = bad. Long way back = bad. Obviously there are much more sophisticated ways of doing this.
To reiterate, most people will not really benefit from bothering about alignment issues. For me, fixing fore/aft balance issues through shimming and then through a much more upright boot was transformative. That is tied to large calf muscles - mine are 17 inches in diameter at the top of the boot. That pushes me a long way further forward than is ideal such that my knee is often well forward of the toe of the ski boot. It is not possible if the lower leg is being held in that position to centre the hips over the feet. If you cannot do that they you cannot really ski effectively.
Now, this is an extreme case and one resolved by simply getting a more upright boot or shimming the toe of your bindings to flatten or reverse the delta. Only a handful of people are really going to benefit from doing that. But it matters a lot if you are one of them.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @skimottaret, I did watch it but couldn't really see an enormous differeece - maybe a bit better edging post-adjustment? a bigger difference being in the fridge as opposed to a mountain I thought (but what do I know ...?) |
Really? To my untrained eye I thought the difference was quite pronounced - more in control, skis more parallel, more edged, upper body quieter, less skiddy turns, and just generally looked much more comfortable and confident.
You did spot that there were 3 clips (2 pre alignment- the second in the fridge and one post alignment in the fridge)?
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clips 2 & 3 look almost the same, the zoom doesn't help though, 3 is a bit tidier but that could just be him learning and getting better.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@skimottaret, Not yet, but I will and i'll let you know the results.
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@Tubaski, to be clear I thought clip 2 in fridge better than 1 on mountain and little difference in 3.
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