Ski Chalet Holidays in Austria Wages law - reported on We Love 2 Ski

A snowHead

clarky999, and thanks to you also, for answering.

A snowHead

All these debates come down to how the cake is sliced between owners, workers and consumers so there is no 'right' answer. The TOs make slim margins but personally I'm happy for a greater share to go to the workers who work very hard for poor pay, and local economy. I've certainly never bought the spurious argument that a certain former licensed instructor is fighting for the rights of employees or consumers. I suspect that everyone has a certain amount of self interest in these debates.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Well I'd certainly like to see the evidence of this massive mark-up. From publicly available figures, the TOs don't seem to be expressing such a successful claim. One or two here have further intimated.

I'm interested, @Mountain Addiction, you make some bald assertions - what are these massive discounts that TO's get on ski passes, that they presumably don't pass on to their paying clients? Or are you suggesting that they use their client's purchasing power to provide passes to their workers that cost them next to nothing? I'd like to see the evidence.

Do they provide ski/equipment from one supplier across the whole alpine region?

Food? Hmmmm, in all my experience, workers cook food enough for themselves as well as guests. That they may eat it later (for obvious reasons) is no excuse to describe it as leftovers.

I've met quite a few seasonnaires, both newbie and established. One always hears stories of those that have a grievance, but vastly, they've been cheerful and outwardly happy. I have also interviewed (many years ago) for a seasonnaires role and can quite honestly say that the hiring company made no effort to say "it's going to be great and amazing, and the best thing you'll ever do in your life", or anything similar. They probably didn't need to - there was more than enough competition for the positions they were recruiting for!

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Regardless of the debate TOs have had preferential employer terms which will no longer exist. No one has come up with an argument why this should continue. Just as no one came up with a defence or rationale for SB breaking employment laws.

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All really interesting stuff. Yes,@Cacciatore, I have heard about these big discounts that Tour Ops get on lift passes and hire gear. That is why they try to get people to book in advance through them rather than do it themselves. BUT I would also like to see the real details of the deals. I do not think anyone is likely to disclose their profit margin on these items, but we can always hope someone will share the REAL details.

The same would go for buying food for cooking and most other items included in a TO holiday. They have a product and sell it at the price they think the market can take and make their profit from the difference after any expenses are paid. Not rocket science. It is all about margins and numbers.

clarky999, my comment earlier fits in with this on a more global scale. If the economy of European countries is starting to struggle again, then local jobs will be harder to get and tax revenue will be reduced. When you apply this to the Ski Holiday industry, if Alpine countries are struggling then one way to keep more money in country is to stop outside business taking the profits away and also not spending much within the local economy either.

What I believe is starting to happen is, like with the problems UK based Transfer companies are having in Switzerland.

If you do not pay local taxes or costs for employment then you can offer cheaper prices and undercut the local market. The Swiss do not like this and are starting to do something about it as they have done with the chalet holiday wages problem.

I think the locals in many Alpine counties feel this is what British companies are doing in their areas. That is why I believe all over the Alps British companies are starting to be pressured. Either through new taxes, wage rules, Ski Hosting rules or opposition to SCGB Leading programmess. I believe a new era is arriving quite quickly and TO and other companies need to work out a new buisness plan or become forced out of the markets they are working as new and stricter laws, legal within the EH framework are applied.

It all comes down to money and who gets what slice of the cake. The only problem is the cake seems to be getting smaller and that has people worried. I work across many countries in marco and micro markets. I see this kind of thing starting to happen in many places. It is not protectioism, it is survival, a basic aninaml instinct. Without being an expert on the British Ski Industry, I stll see a similar pattern evolving. The next five years could be very intersting.

After all it is free

@clarky999, and you have industrial injury insurance if you are injured working. When my right knee was destroyed by someone skiing into me while I was teaching for an English operator here in Austria I found out I was not covered. Luckily I had my own insurance and was able to use that, but the cover for work-related injuries over here is way better than your standard holiday insurance.

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To be fair, I agree with Mountain Addiction, Clarky and Snowcrazy. And i'm shocked that there are people that find TOs almost saint like. Big corps are usually shrouded in questionable tactics... Tesco anybody? or dodgy tax affairs channelled through a small EU country beginning with an 'L' whose former PM has SERIOUS questions to answer.... well... anything to keep a bit of that hard earned cash in the bank ay!

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I've been to Austria many times with tour operators but always stayed in hotels run by Austrians. There don't seem to be many chalets or chalet hotels run by tour operators in Austria like there is in France.

I think it's all a balancing act and that more money should be paid to chalet staff, but that a significant % of the Austrian (and French) ski industry is dependent on uk tour operators.

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You know it makes sense.

My understanding is that minimum wage laws exist to prevent exploitation. Well given the fact that thousands of UK young (and not so young) adults seek these positions each year we can assume that there's little exploitation going on. The issue seems to be more around what has been described as wage dumping and even that is a bit disingenuous. People on a work secondment in the host country (e.g. France, Austria, etc) from places like the Indian subcontinent or Russia in tech industries will not be paid the same as the local employees and instead may be paid a slightly higher rate at home which will be no relation to the local salaries plus a per diem allowance of some sort. Hence you could argue that this practice, which is quite commonplace, is also wage dumping - but no-one seems to mind about that

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

The point remains though that the TOs had preferential arrangements to local businesses.

A snowHead

@dsoutar, People seeking these positions with TOs are being taken advantage of as they don't know the market well. If they are not kids supported by families, they are people who have some financial cushion and want to ski a season or two while getting some pocket money. But just because they go into it themselves doesn't mean that they are getting a fair treatment and not being exploited. A person independently employed in the industry in Switzerland after comparable deductions are made for accommodation, his food, ski pass (he will be entitled to a discount) and transportation will be earning 2.5-3.5 times more than his TO-employed counterpart while being insured in the country and paying local tax, having better choice of food and living arrangements AND working less hours and also being entitled to a holiday.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

So to sum up this thread.

Tour operators have been exploiting their UK employees' fondness for snowsports by paying them less than they should and are now complaining because they've been found out. That's a shame, but we all kinda knew it. After all, who goes on a chalet holiday and doesn't leave a hefty tip at the end of the week because you feel sorry for the underpaid but invariably great youngsters who've looked after you?

I have to say, it's made me think pretty hard about whether I should go back to self-organised trips again after four years of chalets.

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I feel it's hard to argue that the eager young season workers are "exploited". What chance would a young and modestly-skilled person have to earn enough in the UK to put a roof over their heads (substandard, sure, but there's plenty of substandard accommodation around in the UK, especially London, for low paid workers), eat moderately well, work short enough hours that they can spend several hours skiing most days and have enough to drink more than is good for them several times a week? Without racking up any debt.

I entirely agree that UK operators, wherever they are based, should respect local labour laws. But if the alpine countries really apply these rules fairly across the board it is likely that both the TOs AND the young British seasonal workers will miss out. There is no question that many are more than happy to work hard and in return probably have more fun than they'll have again in many a long year.

The relationship between the TOs and the young gap year or new graduate workers is synergistic rather than exploitative.

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I have worked in the industry and followed these arguments for many years and to a point can see most sides of it
1) No one does it for the money .... Yes it is a fun job, only for a few months and most t.o workers come from families well enough off that this maxim has been allowed to perpetuate. It's not a wrong argument because it's mostly true, however that does not make it legally or morally right.
2) Staff are provided with everything they need and when you add up there package it equates to an equivalent minimum wage. This is true if the staff are accomodated no more than 2 to a reasonable apartment, the ski pass and equipment is theirs to keep. However many t.o's put staff in very multiple occupancy small cheap rooms, use the ski pass and equipment as a bargaining tool and so this argument quickly fails.
3) Phone the national minimum wage helpline, i did, they suggested that because the worker is on secondment they should be covered by the wages of the country they are working in. However for years this has slipped under the radar, but not for too much longer I hope.
4) In the UK hotel workers (which is a resonable equivalent job) are legally protected by the national minimum wage and what can be deducted when accomodation and services are provided with the job (it's not much that an employer is allowed to deduct approx 35 pounds a week I believe). Some tour operators have been flouting this for quite a while now, contractually they do pay their staff an equivalent minimum wage or above but then deduct from this a small fortune for provison of services and accomodation because the staff are seconded.

For hundreds of years workers have fought for fair working conditions, why should t.o's be allowed to exploit this because their employees fell into a grey area where noone seemed to know who was responsible for enforcing employee legislation. Why should local hoteliers have to pay far more for their staff who are essentially doing a similar job. How much more would a t.o actually have to charge their guests in order to ensure their staff are paid in accordance with regulations, probably not that much.

I can see that this could make it really quite difficult in some ways for t.o's when recruiting staff, accomodating them and essentially trapping them in their current packages should they in future be required to pay a minimum wage. But I am sure they will adapt and chalet hosting will soon become an interns' position.

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£35 per week is what you can offset on your annual tax bill. An employer can ask for any rent amount they desire, its not their decision to become the tenant

After all it is free

@Cacciatore,

@matteevan90, https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wage-accommodation

We're both wrong, many years ago there used to be a maximum for accomodation deductions I am sure, now it seems that if you deduct for accomodation then the worker must still be making minimum wage after deductions, so my point remains and the t.o's would fail on this.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-1607305/Butlins-workers-get-1m-in-back-pay.html

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I'm not so sure about the ski pass discounts...
Around here it is all as advertised.
There is a special rate for ski instructors but only available to the ski school to give to their teachers. The passes are certainly not free.

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My son spent the winter 12/13 working as a ski instructor in Kirchberg and his pass was definetly free. Accomodation was provided by the ski school kind of FOC as he got approx. 1200 euros take home each month after all deductions. He got paid whether he worked or not, something he wish he knew at the start as he used to wind them up daily if he had no work. And then a bonus at the end of the season. Free beers in a few of the bars till about 9 o`clock, and free or subsidised food up the mountain, depends where he ate. Its not that badly paid really, but then he wasn't working for a TO.

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The reason people work for a TO is because it is an easy way to do a season. If you come somewhere like Mayrhofen then it is difficult to find accommodation and the English seasonaires are well down the pecking order for jobs as most don’t speak any languages. The TO route offers the chance to work the season and have accommodation found for you etc. The trade-off being that you don’t earn any money. The TO’s know this and use it to their advantage. That’s business and in most cases both sides are happy with the deal and so there is probably not an issue from this side.

The point from the Austrian perspective is that they pay everyone fairly regardless of where they come from. They don’t turn around and pay people from Slovakia half as much with the excuse that they are still getting more than if they were working in their home country. In my opinion it is therefore not unreasonable that they want those employed in a competing business to be bound to the same rules.

It will be interesting to see how it pans out. I don’t think that they are too bothered about the reps as they are just delivering on a service put together in the UK. I think however the principle of someone running a chalet next door to you and being able to pay their staff probably a quarter of what you do, is never going to be well received. The Austrians want to see the difference back into their economy whether through tax or increased spend in resort by those employees being paid more money.

You know it makes sense.

@dogwatch,

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@dogwatch, From the perspective of a host country that fact that British kids are not suffering from "exploitation" and might even be actively seeking it is beyond the point as there is still a bigger issue of wage dumping/unfair competition.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I was going to set up a company offering work to young Eastern Europeans. They would come to the UK and work in fields around Peterborough and Lincoln and earn twice what they earn in at home. I'd pay them the minimum wage (approx. £260 a week or £1100 a month), but subtract £400 a month for accommodation (lots of social interaction as they'll be sleeping 6 to a room), £200 for food, £100 for the cost of the minibus to take them to the fields, £100 for their transport from their home country and an admin fee of £100 as I've made it easy for them to come and work here. To encourage them to stay, I'd offer a £250 bonus after 6 months (but I might sack a few just before their 6 months were up to keep the others on their toes).

Unfortunately, the authorities now tell me that this synergistic relationship is not allowed as it is 'exploitation'. I don't see how - there were hundreds of applicants, nobody was forcing these people to come, they would earn twice what they could earn at home and no locals would work for these rates. I was informed that plenty of companies had been doing this, but there has now been a crackdown. I predict that this will have a catastrophic effect on the price of carrots, leeks and cabbages - if they want to continue to enjoy these, UK consumers will be forced to pay more, find cheaper alternatives or go without.

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@quinton, quite!

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Presumably this issue could easily be skirted around by charging for accommodation/insurance while increasing pay by an equivalent amount as opposed to giving them as benefits/deductions? There'll be a little more NI/Tax to pay, but given the level of wages involved, only a little.

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It depends on whether they have to register them for local taxation. The cost of employment here is extremely high and so even if the tour operator went down that route, they would still be paying significantly more in tax. A general rule of thumb is that it costs the employer twice what the net wage would be. Even if they said they earn a grand net and then charge them back for the accommodation, then they would have to pay 2k a month for the employee. With their current deal, they are paying nowhere near this amount.

After all it is free

All that will happen is that TO will say that you can sort out your own accommodation or you can rent from them your choice. You will have to buy your lift pass yourself or under a credit agreement they will loan you the funds and buy the pass for you but of course finance costs to set up and any lender is entitled to charge some interest as well.
They will say you can sort your own meals out or buy a meals package from them for convenience. They will charge for any uniform/equipment and make money back on that as well.

Little will change financially for them but the workers may find they have even less money than they do now.

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Ski Chalet Holidays in Austria Wages law - reported on We Love 2 Ski

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