 Poster: A snowHead
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admin,
Don't care. If she's that fit I'd take the chance 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Arno wrote: |
davidof, you're certainly getting into a grey area but there must* be some point at which a local worker skiing with holiday-makers is OK
* ok, maybe not - this is the French legal system after all |
I think we will have to wait for the court case, there is a reasonable chance that the Ski Club will win.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Case 4 - snowheads on a bash carrying professional looking kit like airbags they have no idea how to use. They do guide type things like beep checks and skiing while answering the phone and smoking a roll up. As they can't remember the real names of their companions they direct the gendarmes to the mysterious home avec pantaloons jaune.
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| Quote: |
admin wrote:
To emphasize this, the rep leads what's known as 'the morning prayer' where they give a little speech about no-one being the boss of anyone else and everyone being responsible for their own safety etc.
Except the 'participation statement' is now part of the Ts & Cs of membership and so is no longer read out each morning, although they ensure the members are aware of the key points
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Last year the Participation Statement was read out at the beginning of the week - and as people signed in they were reminded of it - I think it is on the page too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It is a bummer about guiding being withdrawn in France - unless the ESF fill some of the void they have caused by putting on some "resort familiarisers" themselves. They have in La Rosiere where I had a free guiding sesh from the ESF and it was informative, excellently presented, caring and they even stood vin chauds/chocolates and snacks for everyone - there wasn't a gallic shrug in sight
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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No coincidence that the La Ros ESF's director is a Brit, then? 
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| admin wrote: |
Case: Leading your family around when they've come out to stay in the chalet you're working in.
Probably OK - may need to prove the family connection if challenged.
Case: Leading your friends from home when they've come out to stay in the chalet you're working in.
OK in principle but it'll be harder to prove they're your friends esp if they scarper when the gendarmes turn up.
Case: Leading a group from your chalet around cos the daughter's fit and you reckon you're in.
That probably counts as guiding for personal gain and anyway, the daughters are meant to be the preserve of the ESF - they're trained U know. |
You are over-thinking this. It will be a pattern of behaviour the not the occasional group ski that will attract attention. If, several days a week, you are skiing with groups, seem to be in charge and are in resort for a number of weeks with different groups someone may notice.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Could be a rethink by the French if skiers went to other countries. Money talks!
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Case 4 - snowheads on a bash carrying professional looking kit like airbags they have no idea how to use. They do guide type things like beep checks and skiing while answering the phone and smoking a roll up. As they can't remember the real names of their companions they direct the gendarmes to the mysterious home avec pantaloons jaune. |
Les jaunes! A new underground name for those stupid enough to follow where either Monsieur Custard or Monsieur Pantaloons might lead. Some have tried, many have failed, some ended up skiing into a river a bit while fellow chums laughed their proverbial choppers off at them.
Luckily Snowheads just hire local guides to provide the kind of service being suggested, avoiding all of these problems and not only supporting local guides but also finding the best powder and that. I still don't get why the ski club is paying for guides to be in resort 24/7 instead of just providing a guiding service provided by a local guide with all the tickets the French are clearly so bothered about, plus they provide a local flavour through the faint whiff of rollup and gallic shrugging one might expect on a French trip.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hells Bells, I am disappointed that we have not copyrighted the colour yellow or something. Still, it will make it more subtle when they get stickerbombed next season 
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| Mistress Panda wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| Case 4 - snowheads on a bash carrying professional looking kit like airbags they have no idea how to use. They do guide type things like beep checks and skiing while answering the phone and smoking a roll up. As they can't remember the real names of their companions they direct the gendarmes to the mysterious home avec pantaloons jaune. |
Les jaunes! A new underground name for those stupid enough to follow where either Monsieur Custard or Monsieur Pantaloons might lead. Some have tried, many have failed, some ended up skiing into a river a bit while fellow chums laughed their proverbial choppers off at them. |
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You know it makes sense.
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| Mistress Panda wrote: |
| I still don't get why the ski club is paying for guides to be in resort 24/7 instead of just providing a guiding service provided by a local guide with all the tickets the French are clearly so bothered about |
because they are supposed to be a ski club and therefore within their rights to guide / lead / teach or do anything else anywhere on the mountain. Clearly the French don't believe they are a ski club.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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davidof, what I meant was why they don't just hire local guides instead of paying a whole load of cash to have a rep in resort 24/7. They could have one rep in each resort as a point of contact, but that would be for social gathering, co-ordinating the guiding activity, but when actually going out skiing the guide can then take people wherever they want to go, offpiste, and the ski club doesn't have a problem with reps getting arrested.
And we can all see this is a commercial organisation, evidently including the French. They are a company with a whole bunch of employees, providing a whole load of benefits to the reps they put into resort. This is not some tinpot amateur ski club just helping a member or two to get around and find a nice place for lunch, is it?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mistress Panda wrote: |
And we can all see this is a commercial organisation, evidently including the French. They are a company with a whole bunch of employees, providing a whole load of benefits to the reps they put into resort. This is not some tinpot amateur ski club just helping a member or two to get around and find a nice place for lunch, is it? |
obviously what you say is true; although they do display incredible amounts of amateurism at times.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof, As someone in the know can you make any comparisons between what the SCGB and Club Alpin Francais offer? Seems to me fairly similar but I could be missing something
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Mistress Panda wrote: |
davidof, what I meant was why they don't just hire local guides instead of paying a whole load of cash to have a rep in resort 24/7. They could have one rep in each resort as a point of contact, but that would be for social gathering, co-ordinating the guiding activity, but when actually going out skiing the guide can then take people wherever they want to go, offpiste, and the ski club doesn't have a problem with reps getting arrested.
And we can all see this is a commercial organisation, evidently including the French. They are a company with a whole bunch of employees, providing a whole load of benefits to the reps they put into resort. This is not some tinpot amateur ski club just helping a member or two to get around and find a nice place for lunch, is it? |
The leaders frequently get a guide for a day or two each week, it's up to what the members to decide what they want to do.
Either way, I think the day rate for a guide would be far higher than what it costs for a volunteer, who is staying in accommodation that may be provided by the resort or the hotel itself.
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@Mistress Panda - the 'guide' part is only part of the service offered. on the basis that it's aimed at 1 day/week, the other days are at a variety of levels, as not everyone is a gung-ho powder hound. members possibly also appreciate being shown around the mountains by people who _aren't_ necessarily lusting after their daughters.
In short, the lawyers will decide, and if SCGB lose, they and their members will suffer, as, probably, will some of the french resorts. As the French don't have a monopoly on powder, my hope is that the suffering of the former will be shorter than that of the latter.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
what I meant was why they don't just hire local guides instead of paying a whole load of cash to have a rep in resort 24/7.
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Hiring local guides is v expensive. Many ski club leaders do try their best to encourage the members to club together and hire a local guide but in many resorts this is rarely successful. The exception is when there is a critical mass of expert punters who turn up and are prepared to pay for the "best" off-piste, and this happens only in the "expert" resorts (sometimes).
The "whole load of cash" for the club to stump up to keep a rep in resort is not too much of a cost when the local tourist office (in most resorts) supplies free accommodation to the club for use by the rep, and the resort provides a free season pass for the reps to use.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Ohh! Disappointing though, but we cannot control over it. Hopefully they will likely change their minds.
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The SCGB reps receive remuneration in kind. Under French law - and English law, for that matter - it's remuneration as a BIK for tax purposes and the test would be 'would you do the 'job' if you did not receive these benefits?'. SCGB are going to lose in the French court as the BIK's are instrumental to creating the presence of the reps on the slope regardless of how you frame their status.
Get real, people - this is about job protection under the guise of safety standards as we all know. No French judge who lives in the area is going to find for the SCGB (well, they might - but if they make it alive to the formal judgement stage, I, for one, would be astounded).
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I think the benefit in kind rules are a lot more complicated in France than in the UK but in any case, for some professions, foreigners in the UK have to apply to a government body to have their qualifications recognised. Ski guiding would be such a profession in France but the people we're talking about here don't even have any qualifications (beyond a week or two of 'inhouse' training).
As the law stands (and that will be the test in Europe), I don't see how a judge of any nationality could find in the Club's favour.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This SCGB 'Ambassador' idea - which is described as a "temporary" measure - strikes me as a joke. If SCGB reps are to be provided full expenses to go to French resorts simply to attend a meeting place and advise a few members (perhaps non-paying non-members too) on where to go skiing, then their working day will be minimal (an hour or two's work, including the afternoon snow reporting and drinkies?).
The new scheme is explained here, but given the French authorities' attitude to benefits-in-kind it must surely increase the impression that the benefits really are a generous remuneration to SCGB volunteer personnel. The scheme is explained here ...
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/skiclubambassadors/default.aspx#.U_76YaOCZ8M
Of course, until the expenses arrangements are clear one can't know what this scheme will cost the Club this winter. In winter 12/13 the reps ('Leaders') service cost £241,320. If the expenses run at about the same level, I should think it will cost in the region of £100k to station the Ambassadors in the 11 resorts they will service.
How many SCGB members will benefit?
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Comedy Goldsmith, I thought the French were fulfilling your aim of removing SCGB reps. However, it may be that the expense will still be incurred for non leading work in resort. Nobody gains from that
I will only join SCGB if there is a rep who does traditional leading in a resort I will be going to. France seems to be out of the question and Austria only has four or five Leader resorts.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The issue in cost-benefit terms (an alien concept to the SCGB, apparently) is not "how many reps can we send to Zell am See on expenses-paid assignments?" or "how many weeks can we stretch the 'Zell am See SCGB season' to?" but ... how many SCGB members will ski with reps in Zell, and how many new members will the reps recruit?
I thought the French had done the SCGB a favour by banning reps from leading skiers in the French Alps, but the Club has invented the 'Ambassadorial wheeze" to maintain the gravy train! Is there now a 'Ferrero Rocher' budget for free choccies during the drinkies hour?
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You know it makes sense.
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DG
Shirley the SKGB is a "klub", and aren't "klubs" all about jobs for the "boyz"?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have to say as a former member of the SCGB if I were still paying my membership I'd be a bit miffed about the whole ambassadors thing, its one thing for the club to pay for someone in resort who can show members around the slopes but quite another who's got o real function other than to turn up at a place each day and see if anyone from the club wishes to ski with anyone else and then run a drinks party in the evening, with the rest of the day no doubt spending time on the slopes, seems like an exceptionally good deal for the staff who get such positions, there you go DG have a look and see who's getting the plumb spots as ski ambassadors in the French resorts
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Poster: A snowHead
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| robboj wrote: |
Although perhaps less so when they learn that of the 5 reps appointed only one has repped there before. Well I suppose one new one has repped everywhere, mainly in France but also in Switzerland and Italy but never in Austria. Of the other three new ones not one of them even mentions having been there before! This could be interesting.
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While personally having no great love of the SCGB's brand of bonhomie this is very difficult to score against them. It takes a competent skier maybe 2 days to learn the essentials of s nee resort, less so when being escorted by someone who already knows it. So unless you're saying that people who've skied somewhere a lot expect their rep to still ferret out new secret stashes and hidden coulors for them every trip it's a non issue for those looking to " snooze the blues" or " roger the reds".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@robboj, the other thing to bear in mind is that those members who want to be 'lead' will be looking outside France - clearly the club will need to distribute their leaders across existing (and hopefully new) more tolerant resorts..... there are support mechanisms in place to imbue leaders with 'local' knowledge.
@DG Orf - interesting point - although presumably the volume (and thus cost) of Ambassadors in France will be lower than in previous years - I'd expect that trend to continue unless the French come to their senses.... but in the short term, the clubs choice was either 'maintain a presence' or 'pull out completely' - I'd almost be prepared to pay _just_ to see blue jackets thumbing their noses at ESF, and making a stand for 'encouraging people into snowsports'.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| I have to say as a former member of the SCGB if I were still paying my membership I'd be a bit miffed about the whole ambassadors thing, its one thing for the club to pay for someone in resort who can show members around the slopes but quite another who's got o real function other than to turn up at a place each day and see if anyone from the club wishes to ski with anyone else and then run a drinks party in the evening, with the rest of the day no doubt spending time on the slopes, seems like an exceptionally good deal for the staff who get such positions, there you go DG have a look and see who's getting the plumb spots as ski ambassadors in the French resorts |
I think the ambassador idea is simply a holding operation until the final outcome of the legal process including appeals is known, which makes sense to me. As a former ski club leader myself, as I have said here before, the ski club has its supporters in all the resorts where it has a leader, otherwise the club would not be there in the first place, so to me it as a good idea to show a commitment to those resorts and those that support the ski club until such time as the legal issues are finalised. Once relationships are broken they can be difficult to re-establish again.
If the legal process goes against the ski club I would expect the ambassador concept to be reviewed, but at least by having it for the forthcoming season, it should show whether or not it is feasible for the future.
As for the ambassadors having plenty of time on the slopes themselves, I doubt if many of the leaders actually want that and I gather than one or two leaders are not keen on the concept. Many of us that have been or still are leaders do it partially because you get low cost skiing but also because you enjoy skiing with other people and trying to help them get the best out of their holiday. In one resort where I was a leader at end of season I had several days when I had nobody to ski with. A day or two like that I can enjoy, but I would not want to do a three or four week stint of it. Obviously if you were in a resort where you had a few mates to ski with it could work out very well, but I doubt if that will be the case for most of the leaders most of the time.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Presumeably no one could demand this in the UK because we enjoy access to the countryside legislation ?
In Scotland there is a general right of access.
In England it is restricted to defined 'access land' which tends to include everything above the fell wall and everything defacto above 2000' except miltary firing ranges eg. Warcop in Cumbria.
In England I see no difference between being on a guided walk or a guided ski...... although the CROW Act is not actually specfic about access on skis and was probably overlooked by the legislators. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Nice write up in the SCGB mag.. Answers quite a few questions and poses a lot as well
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| Peter S wrote: |
Presumeably no one could demand this in the UK because we enjoy access to the countryside legislation ?
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droit d'aller et venir in French, in the constitution since 1789.
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This issue is more to do with French protectionism, cf the row about British-qualified ski instructors, than anything else.
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I really don't see how anyone would adjudge the reps as being remunerated.
So what if their flights, hotel, ski pass & some expenses are covered, the important thing is these are the expenses incurred to being able to offer the repping service.
They don't make any money, they give up their free time, they are trained in useful things such as first aid, they carry spare safety gear, they organise external guides, they spend the week looking out for other member's needs and overall
I think it's a gem of a service & great value.
It would be a great loss for members in France, and it would ultimately be a great loss for France versus other destinations.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| horgand wrote: |
I really don't see how anyone would adjudge the reps as being remunerated.
So what if their flights, hotel, ski pass & some expenses are covered, the important thing is these are the expenses incurred to being able to offer the repping service.
They don't make any money, they give up their free time, they are trained in useful things such as first aid at their own expense, they carry spare safety gear, they organise external guides, they spend the week looking out for other member's needs and overall
I think it's a gem of a service & great value.
It would be a great loss for scgb members in France, and it would ultimately be a great loss for France versus other destinations around Europe & elsewhere that welcome the Scgb with open arms. |
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| horgand wrote: |
I really don't see how anyone would adjudge the reps as being remunerated.
So what if their flights, hotel, ski pass & some expenses are covered, the important thing is these are the expenses incurred to being able to offer the repping service.
They don't make any money, they give up their free time, they are trained in useful things such as first aid, they carry spare safety gear, they organise external guides, they spend the week looking out for other member's needs and overall
I think it's a gem of a service & great value.
It would be a great loss for members in France, and it would ultimately be a great loss for France versus other destinations. |
As a minor correction, flights and travel aren't completely covered. The expenses certainly contribute to the travel costs, but it rarely covers it in it's entirety.
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FAQ
