 Poster: A snowHead
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One more note about PMTS, then I have to get to work.
Look at all the "leading" ski instruction camps.
1) All Mountain Ski Pros
2) Lito's camps
Both of them, are teaching PMTS.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hey SCSA, you need to be careful: you're starting to sound almost sensible.
I reckon under all that bluster there is really a very caring guy. If I'm ever out your way I would love to ski with you, but I will stick to milk come the evening. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Jonpim, You're in a beautiful natural half-pipe and you're doing short punchy turns down the middle!!!
Lord give me the strength to live long enough to take a big stick to yer noggin! 
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Sorry Masque, I told you I was a Woose 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As this is kinda techniquey already - why did my knees start to ache
after finding a lovely natural half-pipe run at silver star recently?
I did find it quite a bit mind you...
I assumed I was flawed in technique somewhere (everywhere?).
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Mark Lehto, I find panic always causes my knees to ache.
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Mark Lehto, It's usually down to fear and from that we ‘tense’ up – it’s part of the fight or flight endocrine chemistry (that and the physiological changes to our brain chemistry that age induces [I’ve not the time to point you to the research but it’s a subject worth posting later in a new thread])
When we subject ourselves to repeated threat (this is not a natural act), our bodies are not using their natural resources in the way that evolution intended – i.e. STOP being stupid and either kill the lion or don’t keep jumping down the hill!
So the brain chemistry is contradicting itself (‘you shouldn’t be doing this’ – and then if you don’t fall down, ‘isn’t this fun!’) at the same time your body has become rigid with fear and abusing the muscle chemistry.
This isn’t a joke, people do ‘freeze’ in terror and this is what’s (in a lesser form) happening to you and giving you ‘sore legs’. But it is something that can be overcome with training, practice and some forms of mental preparation.
Try the same ski movements on a less steep slope and between each turn make a conscious effort to become aware of all the muscles you are using and relax them – sag into your boots/bindings, take a breath and adjust your position for the next turn (make sure you have enough time between turns).
When you can feel that moment of ‘release’ (it’s mental rather than physical) you’ll find that you’ll lose your leg tension and become more fluid in movement.
As this becomes a reflex action, you’ll be able to approach the steeper stuff with less muscle ache and better control
This is not a substitute for training or practice, but it may help you understand why you ache so much at the end of a run.
Think about it . . . take two runs of equal difficulty. A short run that you don’t like and a long one that you love . . . how do you feel at the end of each? (be honest with yourselves)
People fall down/over when they’re scared and when they are they invariably hurt themselves, it reinforces the fear.
Skiers/boarders who’re relaxed and enjoying themselves can have some quite horrendous stacks and get up laughing. I don’t discount serendipity – we can also get seriously damaged simply by the dint of our increased speed, but on the whole, the skill-v-risk-v-injury curve is very interesting (I’ve got to go find the research) but as I recall it has a very steep initial plane, flattens off to a 30% incline for most of the graph and then reaches for the stars as we include the extreme skiers.
Practice, practice, practice, is very important, whatever ski technique you’re employing, but you also have to prepare yourself mentally and understand how your body reacts and functions in the situations you put it in.
You really have to remember that your conscious brain is putting your unconscious mind and its unwilling servant (your body) in situations it doesn’t want to be in!
 booring little booger ain't I
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Practice is the key thing but its really helpful to do this while you are skiing with good skiers who give you something to study and copy. Obviuosly, instructors are ideal but any advance/expert mates help, even if they are not teaching you.
For short swings turns I would just find a comfortably angles piste in good condition and throw yourself at it. You need a bit of energy and commitment to get the dynamic movements working and get a sense of the rythym required.
Would pick up on one thing though. I don't think the standard of skiers in the 3V is very high. I have skied there a lot and love it but I don't see very many expert skiers about (less than Chamonix, St Anton and even Val D'Isere). In truth, you dont see many experts anywhere (I guess that is why they are called experts) but the proportion in the 3V relatively low.
Cheers,
J
Cheers,
J
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jedster wrote: |
Practice is the key thing but its really helpful to do this while you are skiing with good skiers who give you something to study and copy. Obviuosly, instructors are ideal but any advance/expert mates help, even if they are not teaching you.
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I'm not sure about that at all, obviously watching someone really good is pretty useful and you can see interesting things about their technique but it needs a practised eye and I think the average recreational skier is going to struggle to see what's good and what's just a fast, barely controlled fall down a slope. This is my impression listening to some conversations on lifts at leat.
I can offer some observations about how often this goes wrong :
1. Powder, people watch other skiers and either believe they're sat right back due to a slight optical illusion or the guy they're watching has been practising a long time to make it look reasonable. It's human nature to be impressed if the guy watching is getting down the slope without wiping out but copying that isn't a goos idea.
2. Next, one of the funniest things I reckon you see are people trying to copy some of the excercises they see instructors doing without poles. The observer typically has totally missed the point of the excercise of which the pole portion was a tiny part and is doing something that's going to harm his technique nit improve it.
3. I ski with a trainer from time to time, the excercises he makes up or uses for me are unique for the particular flaws and weaknesses I have as a skier and typically they're geared to bring me weight to where it should be. This sort of custom excercise doesn't have wider application typically.
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[quote="Masque"] It's usually down to fear and from that we ‘tense’ up – it’s part of the fight or flight endocrine chemistry [/quote]
Now that is why I was skiing powder badly!
On the hurt knees front - that was specifically in a snow-pipe. I
assumed that my weight was all wrong on the "wall" of the pipe
which presumably led me to get achey knees. Could have been too much
Guiness though...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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<i>I'm not sure about that at all, obviously watching someone really good is pretty useful and you can see interesting things about their technique but it needs a practised eye and I think the average recreational skier is going to struggle to see what's good and what's just a fast, barely controlled fall down a slope. This is my impression listening to some conversations on lifts at leat</i>
Fair point. You to need a modicum of technical understanding as a start plus perhaps a feeling for physics/mechanics to work out what is going on. Personally I think careful observation coupled by good books or visits to epicski.com can get you a long way.
I have had two weeks of ski school and three private lessons in 20 years of skiing (including one full season with a lot of free skiing). I've got to a pretty good standard - probably just about expert but no superstar and I've never raced. The vast majority of what I have learned has been from practice, watching others, reading and talking to better skiers (not instructors).
None of this is meant to suggest that lessons are a waste of time. I had a good lesson last year and it helped. Even then, a lot of the value was in observing a better skier on challenging terrain. That said, putting into practice something that I read about on epicski helped even more.
Trying to be objective and avoid sounding arrogant but I do think if you have some technical affinity, basic aptitude and willingness to work at things you can get along way without a lot of instruction.
By the way your powder example is a good one but a decent book would set you right on that point.
Cheers
J
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jedster wrote: |
<i>I'm not sure about that at all, obviously watching someone really good is pretty useful and you can see interesting things about their technique but it needs a practised eye and I think the average recreational skier is going to struggle to see what's good and what's just a fast, barely controlled fall down a slope. This is my impression listening to some conversations on lifts at leat</i>
Fair point. You to need a modicum of technical understanding as a start plus perhaps a feeling for physics/mechanics to work out what is going on. Personally I think careful observation coupled by good books or visits to epicski.com can get you a long way.
I have had two weeks of ski school and three private lessons in 20 years of skiing (including one full season with a lot of free skiing). I've got to a pretty good standard - probably just about expert but no superstar and I've never raced. The vast majority of what I have learned has been from practice, watching others, reading and talking to better skiers (not instructors).
None of this is meant to suggest that lessons are a waste of time. I had a good lesson last year and it helped. Even then, a lot of the value was in observing a better skier on challenging terrain. That said, putting into practice something that I read about on epicski helped even more.
Trying to be objective and avoid sounding arrogant but I do think if you have some technical affinity, basic aptitude and willingness to work at things you can get along way without a lot of instruction.
By the way your powder example is a good one but a decent book would set you right on that point.
Cheers
J |
I'm not sure about any of that all, but if it works for you that's good.
However, I do have an ancedote. The first ever private lesson I took the guys opening shot was "where did you learn to ski, from a book?" I'm pretty sure it wasn't a complement 
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Must be said, my skiing has improved dramatically by following other skiiers - firstly from copying technique, and secondly from following them down stuff that I would normally either have missed or just sideslipped down
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You know it makes sense.
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| nbt wrote: |
| Must be said, my skiing has improved dramatically by following other skiiers - firstly from copying technique, and secondly from following them down stuff that I would normally either have missed or just sideslipped down |
Which is an interesting observation of course. I'd agree but you encapsulate exactly what a lot of the people here dislike about some ESF lessons
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Which is an interesting observation of course. I'd agree but you encapsulate exactly what a lot of the people here dislike about some ESF lessons
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which is why everyone should look for the alternatives!!! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just back from my first ever week's skiing in Europe and I've seen some disgusting skiiers. Also want to vomit from the times I've heard "oh I've only ever had one lesson, I prefer to teach myself" and then watching these idiots careering down the piste fast, but with no brakes or steering. 
I've only skiied 8 weeks, but for 7 of those weeks have taken 3 mornings of lessons. The result is that I'm in the top half of canadian skiiers and the top 10% of european skiiers.
I'm also a firm believer that if olympic athletes have coaches, why shouldn't I?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Alexandra wrote: |
I've only skiied 8 weeks, but for 7 of those weeks have taken 3 mornings of lessons. The result is that I'm in the top half of canadian skiiers and the top 10% of european skiiers. |
Bah, Alexandra, that's nothing compared to SCSA.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Alexandra wrote: |
Just back from my first ever week's skiing in Europe and I've seen some disgusting skiiers. Also want to vomit from the times I've heard "oh I've only ever had one lesson, I prefer to teach myself" and then watching these idiots careering down the piste fast, but with no brakes or steering.
I've only skiied 8 weeks, but for 7 of those weeks have taken 3 mornings of lessons. The result is that I'm in the top half of canadian skiiers and the top 10% of european skiiers.
I'm also a firm believer that if olympic athletes have coaches, why shouldn't I? |
My biggest regret for skiing is that I've not taken more lessons. Learning right to start with is way quicker than re-learning which is more or less what I'm doing. Often when I'm skiing now it's a battle between what I've recently learnt and how I was skiing for years, unlearning those bad habits is very hard work.
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Umm to put another view - I really quite enjoyed learning by doing in a group of
people learning the same way. If you want to be the best skier you can
be then you should obviously take many lessons. And undoubtedly some
people find that very fun - all power to them! Me I am happy having some fun
(and still slowly improving).
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Well thanks! I should have said that the 'hockey stop turns down the slope' was a preliminary exercise...I think my problem is that I like to feel in control. On blues I can carve turns very easily - speed controlled by 'finishing the turn'. However, carving requires speed and the radius of the turn is dictated by the shape of the skis, it thus follows that is virtually impossible to 'carve' very short turns, so another technique has to be employed. ?? I can parallel ski steeper reds.
I have always skied in ski school, and have had private lessons. I Saas Fee, I did 3 hrs ski school followed by 2 hrs private tuition (for 5 days). This is how determined I am, not to look like a daft Brit pretending to ski However, I was taught by an ancient ski instructor (Othmar Supersaxo - had to tell you his name - great isn't it?!) and in Lech I was taught by a 20 year old. It is difficult to find consistency. I think two great tips I have learned are 1) look ahead, down the mountain and 2) feel the movement and relax. I think everyone needs to be 'familiar' with their skis i.e. we learnt to ski backwards, go over little bumps, slide skis round 360deg.
I just try to analyse it too much!
p.s. your feet are a long way from your brain!
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| erica wrote: |
| p.s. your feet are a long way from your brain! |
Erica, are you trying to tell us you're a tall, long-legged lady without being too obvious?
tsk, tsk, tsk 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Alexandra, only skiing for 8 weeks and you're in the top 10% of European skiers - such modesty.
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Sorry David@traxvax, but Alexandra actually referred to something called skiiers, not skiers. So technically she could of course be right.......
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Alexandra wrote: |
I've only skiied 8 weeks, but for 7 of those weeks have taken 3 mornings of lessons. The result is that I'm in the top half of canadian skiiers and the top 10% of european skiiers.
I'm also a firm believer that if olympic athletes have coaches, why shouldn't I? |
Actually, as a European skier I'm incensed that we are implicitly considered to be on average significantly inferior to those Canadian latecomers to our revered sport. Hah. I wonder how many of them could negotiate the ride down from the Krazy Kangaroo after getting sloshed.
As for the second question, I shall refrain from giving the obvious answer.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The ride down is fine... its the walk back up when you realise you've
left your skis behind thats the killer.
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You know it makes sense.
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Alexandra, I couldn't agree with you more. Like you, I've only been skiing a short while (about five weeks in total), of which almost all of those have been - at least in part - with an instructor.
I'm not a particularly good skier, but I can get down pretty much anything on-piste (although not always glamorously!) but the most important thing is that I think I know what I'm doing wrong, when it does go pear-shaped.
It's about awareness - awareness of yourself, awareness of the conditions and awareness of others. These can be gained through experience - a lot of it, or you can shortcut a lot of the pain through instruction.
Doesn't mean to say you'll become a great skier overnight (I'm proof of that!) but I think it's the best value investment you'll make on your skiing holiday (well, save for that chalet you bought in Chamonix 15 years ago).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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erica, I missed this thread until just now; I'm sorry about that...
My initial question for you is, "What is a short turn?" My second question is, "Why are you doing short turns?"
The reason I ask this is that I can create a number of "short" turns, including a spectrum from relatively short carved turns to infinitely short jump (aka "Speiss") turns. There are times when I want to do a series of short turns with an edge set (a "short swing") just because they are fun!
So, what are you really trying to do? And why?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Do I read aright?? - SCSA FELL???????
Did he fall better than 97% of skiers on the hill?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I've only skiied 8 weeks, but for 7 of those weeks have taken 3 mornings of lessons. The result is that I'm in the top half of canadian skiiers and the top 10% of european skiiers.
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I don't believe it - if it was true Alexandra you'd be in the World Cup. Or do you mean average "holiday" skiers? Big difference. The Canadian system is not as rigorous as most European systems (for ski teachers). They also don't pay very well, and conveniently don't allow work permits for most European ski teachers.
I'm not suggesting that your learning experience was inferior, but do not confuse all European skiers with the small minority who ought to be dropped of the nearest cliff!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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easiski, I never understand these "better than xx% of all other skiers" comments. They are usually made by people who have skied a relatively short period of time, and have probably never skied with someone who can really ski. The majority of skiers are clearly not very good, even if they manage to get down steeper terrain. When you meet some of the truly top skiers (I have had the honor to ski with Scot Schmidt in the 80s and then with a number of high-level [PSIA Examiner] instructors in the US this year), you begin to see the vast difference between a "typical" skier and those that are really good.
Most people who ski with me think I'm "really good." They are wrong. I'm a good skier, but compared to many with whom I ski, I have a lot to learn. It's not a numbers game. There is no competition unless you're going against a clock or a judge. Therefore, such comments have absolutely no validity or value (which is why no one can prove it or argue it).
I measure my skiing first by the joy that it creates in my life. Next, by the lack of limitation that my technique enforces. What I mean by the latter is if I am unable to go somewhere or do something on skis, that's a technical limitation that I am able to address with learning and practice. Unlike many, I learn significantly from reading and other study off-snow. Many people need on-snow practice before anything "clicks." But learning is growth and it's all good...
Regardless, even though I have skied for 33 seasons, raced in formal competition, been judged by PSIA Examiners, and skied with friends who have been skiing about as long as I have, I don't bother to compare myself to any of those folks or others to determine who is "better." Instead, I work on learning what I can from them to improve my own skiing so that next season I'll be more capable and less limited than the guy that was in my boots this season. Any other judgement is simply inappropriate and wasteful pride.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well said ssh,
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ssh, I think you misunderstood my point: I was commenting on the quote from Alexandra! I myself have been ski-ing for 48 years, been a professional ski teacher for 32 (Grade 1, equivalence blah, blah, blah), raced as a junior etc. etc. etc., and would not consider myself anywhere near the top of the tree! If you can find the quote where I said so, then quote it.
The original point from Alexandra, was to suggest that in 8 weeks she is somehow in the top 10% of European skiers. She has now explained what she meant. I'm sure she's doing very well, and perhaps her original phrasing was unfortunate. I have also taught people who could possibly say the same, but would not dream of doing so.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ise, (and Alexandra), this 'European skier' label is interesting! I'm sure that by 'European' Alexandra was thinking more of the likes of the British holidaymaker, rather than the hundreds of thousands of people actually living in the Alps who virtually learned to ski before they could walk! Lumping people together through such broad generalisations isn't very helpful really. And it's true that people do sometimes overestimate their ability... I remember an overconfident teenager of 17 with 10 weeks skiing and some good tuition under his belt who challenged his cousin, a then 9 year old local French club skier, to a flèche GS timed run. Major case of red face syndrome when he completed the GS all of 9 seconds slower!
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easiski, I was agreeing with you!
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FAQ
