 Poster: A snowHead
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On the timings, my understanding is that we were at the restaurant for lunch only 5 minutes later than planned, and by my watch lunch in the small restaurant took nearer 2:15 than two hours. If we all skipped dessert/coffee that may have helped (but once the first person orders a cafe gourmand...)
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serving 24 people plus leaders takes a while.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| kitenski wrote: |
| In my mind the 2 hour lunch and making a group size of 24 were the main errors. |
To my mind, these weren't even errors at all. There's a lot in the OP about delays. However, I don't think there was really any rush. We did spend a little time waiting in the morning, but we still made lunch at... well... lunch time. There was never any intention of doing any more then one long run in the afternoon, and we did that run. And we did the top two thirds in absolutely epic conditions without excessive avalanche risk; I'm pretty sure that everyone there that day managed fresh tracks in powder. Which given that it had been more than a week since the last snowfall and it had been really warm and sunny since then, I'd say was absolutely amazing. Whilst small groups are usually better, f there hadn't been a group of 24, lots of people wouldn't have experienced what should have been a truly awesome run.
Yes, it was getting dark at the end. But not dark enough that head torches were strictly necessary (and that's after everyone waiting for a rescue to be completed; if it had got any later there were clearly other strategies to explore). And conditions were pretty damn awful at the bottom, but that would have been a risk earlier on, too.
I think the significant issue that day was communication. If people were feeling rushed, that was a communication issue. If people didn't know what lay ahead of them, that was also a communication issue. I'm pretty sure that everyone there was technically capable of completing the run safely, but a significant issue was a perceived level of exposure on the traverse and the rocky entry to the valley. I suspect that put a lot of people on edge, and maybe if everyone had known a little more about what was ahead of them, some would have chosen not to join us. That may have been safer.
IMV, lesson number one should be: It's good to talk (I learnt that from Bob Hoskins). Other important lessons: take a torch, and expect the unexpected.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Custard the Rabbit, fair comment.
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| Custard the Rabbit wrote: |
| kitenski wrote: |
| In my mind the 2 hour lunch and making a group size of 24 were the main errors. |
To my mind, these weren't even errors at all.. |
I think they reflect poor planning. A 2 hour lunch will just make you sleepy and sluggish! And it put all the pressure on the afternoon. The groups should keep apart and only regroup at the final point, ie skis off at the end of the run; the amount of waiting ends up being the same but it's done in a safer place and not halfway down the mountain leading to the inevitable mixing of groups which is bound to make it harder for the group leader to keep track of everyone.
As you say communication is the key but it does require someone to actually be in charge and do it...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| inspark wrote: |
| A 2 hour lunch will just make you sleepy and sluggish! |
Not necessarily. A long lunch doesn't have to be a big lunch. Although perhaps some might have gone a Cafe Gourmand too far....
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A couple more thoughts to add into the mix
Regarding the wait until the Heli had rescued Lars - there really was no urgency to get the rest of us off the hill was there? the weather was good (clear sky, no wind, not really cold) and even if it got dark there would still be enough moonlight/reflected light to pick out the route. One thing however that I don't think any of us know is what the dialogue between the guide and the helicopter rescue was, and this must have been part of the decision making process.
The confusion at the very beginning of the day probably contributed to the delay in gathering at the start of the first run. Two groups bought full lift passes and skied over to Monetier the others got the bus to Monetier and bought singe trip tickets. We were never going to arrive at the same time.
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It would be useful if the professionals involved could give their thoughts as to how the group(s) were led, any errors made, lessons to be learned. Are they aware this has been posted even?
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| pam w wrote: |
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I will admit that if they're unfit enough to have to stop I'll ride straight past them.
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That doesn't sound very friendly. When I'm skiing with friends who get tired I'm quite happy to stop for a breather, or a coffee. And if I'm tired, I'm glad of someone to stop with me. |
It's a bit different off piste, e.g. in potential avalanche path. The weaker skiers need to hack it to a safe stop (as per guide direction), or face the potential consequences themselves.
As to the report in the OP, I'm in the '24 is a crazy number' camp. Probably 2 independent groups of 6 could have got down early and safely, and the other 2 should have abandoned the plan with the timing having gone awry.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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davidof, the two instructor leaders are both forum members and very occasional posters, but I am not sure if they are aware of the thread. Lars and Tors have been careful not to identify any of the leaders, but obviously the groups know who they were. I can let one of them know of the thread as I think it wise he should have input if he thinks that is right .
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| AB Ski wrote: |
Regarding the wait until the Heli had rescued Lars - there really was no urgency to get the rest of us off the hill was there? the weather was good (clear sky, no wind, not really cold) and even if it got dark there would still be enough moonlight/reflected light to pick out the route. One thing however that I don't think any of us know is what the dialogue between the guide and the helicopter rescue was, and this must have been part of the decision making process.
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One of your group - Lars - had already gone down with an injury in what appears to be a 'one of those things that can happen in the backcountry' type of accident.
Any other member of the group could have suffered the same fate on the way out.
If they had, then you would have been calling out rescue services in the dark, making their job more difficult and potentially more dangerous.
It's not all about the individuals on the mountain.
And that's why turnaround times are so important.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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[quote="laundryman"]
| pam w wrote: |
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I will admit that if they're unfit enough to have to stop I'll ride straight past them.
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That doesn't sound very friendly. When I'm skiing with friends who get tired I'm quite happy to stop for a breather, or a coffee. And if I'm tired, I'm glad of someone to stop with me. |
 My snow friends can look after themselves. You know the saying..
In my view if people drop-in in front of me, then it's their responsibility to either stay in front, or gracefully accept being politely overtaken. Their other choices are to let someone else go first, or ride with slower people.
"Type A" people think they're going first because they're aggressive and competent. The rest of us know it's more efficient and safer to have the slow people on the slope first. The chances of them finishing first are low.
If you have formal "tail gunner" responsibility that's a different deal.
To me, holding up a group is rude. Carrying a head torch because you wasted 2 hours of daylight in a restaurant seems to me to be entirely avoiding the problem. Trying to ride down a slope after a 2-hour meal doesn't sound great. Each to their own...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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philwig, I think head torches were being carried following an incident in La Grave the previous winter. A man skiing alone was stranded on the mountain, and the guide had to attempt a rescue. It was the final run down I think, so some were already off the mountain. Although they attempted to reach him, and guide him away from the cliff, the guide had to call the helicopter eventually to remove the man. The group with the guide had to wait there for the rescue to arrive which took some considerable time, I believe they were dug into a snowhole at one point. They had no option but to come down the final part of the route in the dark, hence the precaution of the head torches. They certainly weren't being carried for the reason of a long lunch. Everyone seems to be assuming there was huge quantities of food involved . As CustardtheRabbit said above, long lunch didn't mean big lunch. I suspect in a resto serving freshly cooked food it took a while to serve 24+ people.
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I think head torches are a good idea anyway - I've been caught out once of twice hiking when things have gone slightly wrong and been glad of (or wished I'd had!) a head torch.
One of those survival bag things is good but not sure if everyone needs to carry one.
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You know it makes sense.
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I'm with the 'small groups work better' camp on this one: the large group didn't cause the accident but contributed to the chain of events that led to it. Skiing down in the dark hightened the risk of another injury to some extent but then everyone was competent enough to ski according to the conditions so 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. Having said that, IMHO we, as a group(s) were never in any real danger during the follow up; knowing that the heli was only 30 mins away or so. Comms was a big (perhaps the biggest) issue.
Things were significantly different in La Grave last year: the idiot on the cliffs would've been hypothermic pretty rapidly and then (a) fallen and died or (b) fallen and been badly injured and died of hypothermia (discussed this with the guide afterwards). The level of urgency exhibited by the Guide in this situation was significantly increased given the circumstances.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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This has been a meaningful discussion and like everyone else I don't think this was the reason of the accident but it MAY have contrubuted to the accident. Whats important is how can we do in the future. Before this accident I did not think to much about what I had in backpack and about protocols. This is what I am trying to accomplish , we snow head should agree on what should be in the backpack when we ski together, what should we do if something happen to the guide. Should we have a pre ski briefing etc etc. I feel there is lots of skilled people on this forum to make that to a meaningful discussion.
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Poster: A snowHead
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How did the guides know each of the 32 skiers were competent to ski the planned itinerary? Did they know you all?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Comms was a big (perhaps the biggest) issue
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I'm always a bit dubious about relying on mobile phones. VHF is far better if within line of sight - phones just for back up. HM Coastguard warn against relying on mobile phones at sea.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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tjorgensborg, I think many pros already do this (kit, protocols, briefings) and I think it's a very good idea for the client too. Proper preparation and all that.
Perhaps you could get some ideas from a pro first?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
How did the guides know each of the 32 skiers were competent to ski the planned itinerary? Did they know you all?
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It was nearer mid 20s than 32, but by this point in the week all of the clients had skied with one or more of the pros (i.e. guides or instructors) for a total of 3 or 4 days, but it was an either/or.
IMO there wasn't anything especially challenging about it though: the traverse was tight and hence slow, but as for the skiing I think we'd all skied tougher terrain in our groups at La Grave earlier in the week.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mtsuit, thanks for the context. Glad to hear it wasn't pitch up on the day and off for a pre-planned itinerary.
The main issue seems to be the time schedule slipping (probably due in part to large group size) thus putting time pressure on everyone.
I prefer to stop for a light bite late morning and finish the day on a late lunch. I wouln't plan to be off piste late afternoon. Am I unusual in this regard?
But on occasions when we are late and need to hurry to catch a bus for example, it is not pleasant.
Accidents happen, but they are more likely under stressful conditions.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Comms was a big (perhaps the biggest) issue
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I'm always a bit dubious about relying on mobile phones. VHF is far better if within line of sight - phones just for back up. HM Coastguard warn against relying on mobile phones at sea. |
Guides should be carrying pro-radios which work off the local relay system. Even some of the local clubs are equipping their leaders with these.
> I wouln't plan to be off piste late afternoon. Am I unusual in this regard?
As a general rule you want to aim to be done by around 2pm. In winter it can be much less critical but night comes early and is cold. That said I've skied afternoons, evenings, nights even but you have to accept that if anything goes wrong you can be on your own so big gnarly experimental lines should be avoided.
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I have been reliably informed that the guides in the party were equipped with radios.
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