 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
From the time we first went on chalet holidays in the 1980s the majority of staff were very young and relatively inexperienced but if they had their heads screwed on and worked hard they could still run a good chalet, with perfectly acceptable food AND get quite a bit of skiing done. For many on the supply and demand side of the transaction it's a perfectly acceptable arrangement. The cheaper chalets didn't have en suite bathrooms but for a family accustomed to camping and having to walk across a wet Scottish field to the draughty toilet and shower block, that was no hardship at all. In fact, it was luxury!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
It's an interesting point. Having spent a lot in Austria and nt a lot in Bulgaria i do think that shopping around is the answer. I've been put off France by stories of beer costing £10 and £6 for a coffee not having skied there I can't make the "but the skiing is worth it" argument. That being said I'm more of the view that I'm happy to pay for quality but not for mediocrity.
Example gastro pub £8 for a glass of wine £12 for an average (but good quality) burger. I'd rather pay £20 for a main which I couldn't create myself. I guess being in chalet accom people think "well I could have cooked that" and hence don't see why they are paying for someone to do it for them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
moffatross, Like for like, Scotland seems more expensive than France to me. Lift passes, B&Bs and self catering are the things I costed recently.
I tend to just go for the cheapest option wherever I go, it means I can afford more weeks skiing. I'm happy to cook for myself so I'm not really a potential customer for Insiders.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
^^^Chuck the odd shower in and it sounds like a bargain 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
rjs, the way I work it is £450 for the trip, £200 for a 6 day lift pass, £70 for parking and diesel = £720/6 = £120 per day. Lunchtime food etc. costs a lot more in the Alps than it does in Scotland but that aside, a weekender for me in Scotland, even with the expense of a £30 B&B (sleep in tent or car is free of course), £60 for 2 days lift passes, £10 for evening eats and £50 for diesel = £150/2 = £75 per day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
I've been put off France by stories of beer costing £10 and £6 for a coffee
|
 you don't want to believe everything you read.... did you also read that snow in Austria is unreliable because the resorts are so low? If you want to push the boat out you can go to a Michelin starred restaurant in Megeve and pay €200 for dinner and it's possible that somewhere in Courchevel 1850 there's a bar charging £6 for a coffee. I paid £1.35 this morning. Generally food and drink on the mountain is cheaper in Austria and Italy than in France but the difference is not as great as sometimes made out. Passes cost much the same as does ski hire on the whole, except for the eye-watering cartel prices in the Arlberg.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
moffatross, You are not comparing like for like, compare somewhere in Scotland with a similar sized ski area in France.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
no, I'd say not. France, just like Austria, has a huge range of ski resorts. Most Brits have been to a handful, at most. In my area, if you avoid the main French school holidays (which is wise) you can get a decent 2 bed apartment, piste-side, for £500 a week. Hardly any Brits have heard of it but it has more skiing than, for example, Kitzbuhel.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rjs, why ? I live in Scotland so skiing in France is more expensive than skiing in France. However it's probably like-for-like for someone living in say Lyon and skiing a smaller hill in the Massif Centrale or the Alps foothills and getting digs for the weekend in an area that's not overrun by Brit holidaymakers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
moffatross, yes but the French prices you quoted were not exactly a "local hill" where you might get a good lunch, with wine, for £14, a 6 day pass for £120 and pay £10 a night for a bed in a small apartment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
moffatross, You replied to a post from Insiders that suggested that components of a ski trip would be more expensive in the UK than the alps, I agree with this. I'm not counting travel costs. I'm comparing what it is costing me to stay in Fort William in a couple of weeks time with what it would cost in several medium sized French alpine resorts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Insiders,
Along with many others my own answer is that I would not be prepared to pay extra because I don't need the extras things when I'm on a skiing holiday, I generally self cater to do it on the cheap and get more than one holiday per year.
Nowt wrong with offering a premium product for a premium price though if that's what people want. I suspect the big problem is is that very few chalet operators are particularly full in their description and use a lot of adjectives implying luxury when the truth is somewhat different.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
No, pam w, I quoted what's available for me. My next Alps trip is to Ischgl in 2 weeks. The family and friends group I go with includes a couple of school teachers so we're limited to school holidays and that's the summary of costs which is pretty typical. Like I said £450 for 7 nights 1/2 board, flights and transfers, £200 for a 6 day lift pass, £70 for airport parking and diesel. I missed out the £30 ski carriage actually so we're up to £125 per day. I'd be interested in you showing me how I could do that from Scotland for £75 per day to any area in France.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| pam w wrote: |
no, I'd say not. France, just like Austria, has a huge range of ski resorts. Most Brits have been to a handful, at most. In my area, if you avoid the main French school holidays (which is wise) you can get a decent 2 bed apartment, piste-side, for £500 a week. Hardly any Brits have heard of it but it has more skiing than, for example, Kitzbuhel. |
Any reommendaions on web sites to try to find these places? I keep ending up at crystal...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| rjs wrote: |
| moffatross, You replied to a post from Insiders that suggested that components of a ski trip would be more expensive in the UK than the alps, I agree with this. I'm not counting travel costs. I'm comparing what it is costing me to stay in Fort William in a couple of weeks time with what it would cost in several medium sized French alpine resorts. |
Actually, I replied to a post by Insiders making an observation that there is skiing in the UK and I made a comparison about relative value for me. You've elected to ignore travel costs which I don't really understand.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
But no one goes to Scotland for a week and I wouldn't know where to start looking for an area the size of Glencoe in the Alps. I go for the weekend so I don't need to take any time off work. The Scottish areas provide great skiing for a day or 2. It's a different experience to the Alps. Everyone speaks English and T-bars with queues make it very sociable if you are a lone skier. I rarely find myself striking up conversation with a stranger on a gondola, I did have a decent conversation on a chairlift above Supermorzine once, but most lift rides in Scotland end up with some interesting chat when I'm skiing alone. I've met people who have helped me push into the off-piste/itinerary areas. Now I ski very steep terrain, often have only the people I'm with for company and never look at a piste map. The lifts might be busier but the runs are way quieter than I've experienced in the Alps and most of my trips there have been in the quiet weeks of early January. It's interesting skiing even if it is the same areas under different conditions. Im going again in a couple of weeks. If it was rubbish I wouldn't bother. You need to know the areas to get the best of them. Even from Manchester <£200 for the weekend unless I drink too much beer or have an expensive meal out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
moffatross, of course Scotland is cheaper for you, because you live there, and you are comparing the costs with a trip to a luxury Alpine resort in school holiday time. For me, as I'm sitting in the Alps, a day in the Alps is similarly hugely cheaper than a day in Scotland would be. But setting aside travel costs the overall cost, to an outsider, of a week in a Scottish area with a week in a comparable Alpine area is probably very similar. I think that was what rjs meant about not comparing like with like.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
what...snow has nailed it really. Skiing in Scotland is opportunistic, but if you relish steeps and off piste, and you buddy up with like-minded skiers, those opportunities are outstanding. But like I said, pam w, I'd be interested in you showing me how I could ski in France for 6 days on the trot for £75 per day, in any area you can think of, at any time of the season. It was Insider's own value proposition that I was questioning i.e. that when I do go to the Alps, why would I pay double for fancy tableware, decent wines, warm minibuses and horse's douvres when I can get a TO chalet with perfectly adequate food and a warm bed that I can ski back to at day's end and which is within easy walking distance of the ski lifts ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
how I could ski in France for 6 days on the trot for £75 per day
|
Not clear what you are wanting to include. But you can get accommodation and ski pass from €105 a week (google ski tout compris)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
So I'll trust google that a French ski resort will really sell me a bed and a ski lift pass for the week for £90  I'll trust google that my bargain basement flights from Glasgow to Geneva will really only cost me £240 inc taxes return next week, my ski carriage and luggage cost will really only be £50, parking at the airport and fuel will be £70 and breakfast and supper in France will cost say £10 per day, 7 nights and a hire car in France and its fuel will cost say just £200 for the week.
That still gives a total of £720/6 = £120 per day, so considering that my Easter school holiday TO catered chalet in Ischgl will cost just £5 per day more, it's not really a winner after all.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
how I could ski in France for 6 days on the trot for £75 per day
|
Not clear what you are wanting to include - or why, for that matter. I've not suggested that you could do a trip to France for £75 a day from Scotland. Your trip to Ischgl is costing £125 a day plus lunch and drinks and you could certainly do France for a similar price.
I was comparing the (much lower) cost of a "local" doing a few days skiing in a small ski area in France to the cost of a "local" doing a few days skiing in Scotland, and suggesting they'd be about the same. I'm not sure what, if any, is the difference between us here. I don't need horses douvres either.
The French "local" could obviously spend less per day, just as you can in Scotland. In Areches-Beaufort, for example (outstanding off piste opportunities there too for those who know what they are doing and an interesting, small, area of pisted runs). He'd go with a group of friends (as you are doing), paying £20 a day for a lift pass, maybe £17 a day to share a double room in a 2 bed apartment, leaving plenty of dosh for eating and drinking.
This is an interesting article comparing St Foy and Areches-Beaufort http://www.skiinfo.fr/actualites/a/589884/ski-hors-piste---ar%C3%AAches-beaufort-vs-sainte-foy-tarentaise Both offer great freeride possibilities but the latter is much more French whereas they conclude that St Foy is a bit spoilt, as an authentic Savoyard resort, by the dominance of the English language.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| rjs wrote: |
I tend to just go for the cheapest option wherever I go, it means I can afford more weeks skiing. I'm happy to cook for myself so I'm not really a potential customer for Insiders. |
Agreed. Our criteria is
1. - has roof
2. - close enough to get first lift.
3. - add cheapness
If I want fine dining I will go somewhere that specialises in fine food......but - it can't be every night. Then you stop appreciating how good it is.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| moffatross wrote: |
So I'll trust google that a French ski resort will really sell me a bed and a ski lift pass for the week for £90 I'll trust google that my bargain basement flights from Glasgow to Geneva will really only cost me £240 inc taxes return next week, my ski carriage and luggage cost will really only be £50, parking at the airport and fuel will be £70 and breakfast and supper in France will cost say £10 per day, 7 nights and a hire car in France and its fuel will cost say just £200 for the week.
That still gives a total of £720/6 = £120 per day, so considering that my Easter school holiday TO catered chalet in Ischgl will cost just £5 per day more, it's not really a winner after all. |
No-one has said that you personally, living in Scotland, can ski the Alps cheaper. They've said without travel costs the Alps would be cheaper/at least not more expensive (so just food, beer, lift pass, accom.), in a non-famous resort. Which matters to 'person X' living in Coventry or somewhere where they have travel costs regardless of which direction they head.
If you count travel costs for locals going for the weekend to similar size resorts the Alps wins on cost again as its almost impossible to get to the Scottish resorts on public transport! Plus lift passes are cheaper - a day pass for Cairngorm is within a couple of euros of all but the most expensive resorts (and only 8 euros less than a day pass for the entire Arlberg). A season pass for Cairngorm costs over 100 euros more than mine, and mine covers 20-odd resorts!!!
Not slagging off Scottish skiing btw, but it's not certainly not cheap!
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sat 29-03-14 0:47; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Too many factors involved in this equation.
1st. Resort ( small of the TO radar, or for eg Zermatt )
2nd. Location in resort (on piste or a good bus journey to a busy main uplift)
3rd. Quality of accommodation (budget to luxury)
4th. Date of travel (half term or new year to 10th jan)
5th. Country of destination (Bulgaria to Switzerland)
6th. Type of accommodation (chalet to 5star)
We all have our preferred choices from the above and no doubt more options, we pay our money based on our criteria, sometimes we feel like we have scored, other times we have scored in our own net... Just the way it goes as far as I am concerned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
I've only been on one chalet holiday. Mark Warner to Meribel Mottaret, this January just gone. I was more than happy with the product I got for the price. The food was very good and if anything there was too much of it!
I did go in January and get an early booking special which helped.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| clarky999 wrote: |
| No-one has said that you personally, living in Scotland, can ski the Alps cheaper. |
Actually, I explained that the cost to ski per day for someone who has easy enough access to the Scottish areas is significantly lower than it is to go to the Alps. I wasn't saying that Scotland is a reasonable holiday alternative for much of the UK's skiing population though. That would be a futile proposition because, besides the weather being too fickle for reliable daily uplift, Alpine holiday week skiers often expect a couple of hundred miles of pistes so as they don't 'get bored'.
Reading back through the thread though, it seems that mostly everyone is in agreement really. Roof, warm bed, acceptable food, forget the horse's douvres, pay less money, and ski more. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I think the answer to Insiders question is that people expect it because they can get it. I've found a few gems of independent catered chalets around, for not that much money, that offer everything from Insiders first post. I would be willing to pay a bit more for a catered chalet that had good food, good service, etc. if I had to, but having found such places for ~£300 each (fr the catered chalet, doing flights, transfers, etc. ourselves), spending more would be a waste. Unless the chalet or food or somesuch is truly exceptional, in which case I wouldn't be willing to pay a bit more, but the prices for truly luxury catered chalets seems to be vastly more.
It's all about how the market is segmented in terms of what people are willing to pay and how much effort they're willing to put in. You have tour operators catering for the mass market the doesn't really care too much about gourmet food, but just wants something decent for not much money and doesn't want to spend much time researching chalet companies, flight times, booking transfers, etc. You have luxury places that will also do everything for you, all with exceptional service and quality, but will charge an arm and a leg for it because there are a minority of very well off people willing to pay it. They'll obviously have higher costs, but most of the higher price is because it's a credence good and people with money are willing to pay for something they know will be good (i.e. something a friend has recommended or a company that has a reputation for luxury to protect). But if you put the effort in to research chalets, find reviews to make sure you're picking a good one, and book elements yourself, you can find some great deals, mostly (in my admittedly limited experience) with smaller independent companies that run one or a few chalets, without big reputations, who can offer some of that luxury without the giant price. In this latter group you can get the kind of quality Insiders mentions in his OP for little, if any, more money than a tour operator (assuming you can get good deals on flights, transfers, etc.).
I'm sure there are plenty of bad independent chalets or companies as well, because many people don't want to spend the effort researching stuff to find this out and hence they can make money without being great, but that's why many people expect good quality for not that much money (a.k.a. good value for money) - because there are companies that offer it, if you look hard enough. To charge more you either need to offer the convenience of package deal with a reputation or go truly above and beyond even the good quality aspects mentioned in the OP.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Ok, so excluding the uber luxury high end market, i'm just talking a step up from the middle of the road acceptable average nothing special but perfectly acceptable and a step down from getting breakfast in bed by a michelin starred chef and some one to wipe your mouth when you've finished eating...
What would be considered an accetable price for really good quality food prepared by an actual chef, with a high standard of service? for me it would be around the £600pp mark (for nice very comfy chalet, w/ hot tub, catered with transfers, book your own flights)... but i'm still curious what others think?
For me, a holiday - whether i'm skiing or not, is to enjoy better things than i get at home and not to just make do with what's on offer especially when i could cook better at home
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Insiders, price is so dependant on where (both resort & location within it with respect to slopes) and when.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
I aware of that, but as a guide line of good service
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Insiders, I think there are too many factors to give a guide line price. But surely good service should be a given, regardless.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Insiders wrote: |
Ok, so excluding the uber luxury high end market, i'm just talking a step up from the middle of the road acceptable average nothing special..........
What would be considered an accetable price ........around the £600pp mark (for nice very comfy chalet, w/ hot tub, catered with transfers, book your own flights)...
.................. especially when i could cook better at home |
£600 should include your flights!
For that sum (£600 per person) it's relatively easy to book BA-flights/car-hire/more-than-decent-accommodation-including-HB in some rather excellent resorts.
It is precisely because of too many past experiences of below average chalet holidays masquerading as some super-dooper deluxe package that those with half an ounce of grey matter go DIY. Particularly now that the TUI group dominate the ski market, overall standards have plummeted.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Insiders wrote: |
| I aware of that, but as a guide line of good service |
Yes but the cost of location and scarcity of accommodation vs demand is different in Val d'Isere at New Year than if you're outside school holidays in a small resort.
It's hard to comment on your suggested price without a broad idea of when / where you have in your mind for comparison.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Insiders,
I really would not get to worried about what is 'reasonable'. If you have sourced your goods and services well and over the course of the season taking account occupancy etc. you come out with a modest profit yes your charges are reasonable.
This does not mean that potential customers are prepared to pay this though, in the UK there has been a recession in which most peoples discretionary spending has been significantly reduced. Major retailers are losing customers because of this. There quite simply might not be enough people who want things like hot tubs and chef prepared meals as part of their holiday to the extent that they want to pay extra for it. I am not prepared to, this does not make your charges unreasonable, however it may mean that you have to rethink your product either by going further upmarket and attracting those who want everything laid on and are prepared to pay for it or by reducing your costs and charges appropriately.
If there is a big enough market for your product you have to let people know about it and politely refuse those who wish to pay less without getting stressed about it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I dont have a product, i'm just curious...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Insiders,
| Quote: |
For me, a holiday - whether i'm skiing or not, is to enjoy better things than i get at home and not to just make do with what's on offer especially when i could cook better at home
|
For me this part is not that important, the skiing holiday is about the environment the mountains and the skiing.
I like to eat well on holiday but do not need to eat extravagantly every day and find one really good meal per holiday is memorable. A surfeit of rich food is neither necessary nor particularly enjoyable, I certainly don't need a cooked breakfast each day and personally I find hot tubs a slightly dubious pleasure sitting in a chemical soup is not really my idea of fun.
Good quality bedding and proper hot water for the showers is certainly something that I appreciate, but is not usually that difficult to find at a rather more modest price than you suggest.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
What would be considered an accetable price for really good quality food prepared by an actual chef, with a high standard of service? for me it would be around the £600pp mark
|
What makes a big difference is the number of people involved. A chef with a experienced assistants can produce great food for quite a lot of people. But if he's only catering for 7, then it will cost far more than £600 a week. He won't be working for £60 a week, his ski pass and a bed in a shared basement full of smelly socks. A luxury chalet might have a cook, a driver/snow-clearer, a couple of local cleaners who come in every morning and maybe a couple of waitresses/hostesses, with the live-in staff having decent accommodation. And at least one expensive vehicle. The price will be for the chalet, not "per head" - one party will book it and, given that they have to be extremely rich even to contemplate it, will almost certainly not fill all the beds (one does hate to be squashed). The cost of heating one of those places for a week, with a pool (hot tubs are so chavvy, don't you know), a big cinema, a gym, a massage room and sauna would probably cost as much as it costs to run my apartment for a whole season.
In terms of "mass market buy a bedroom" chalets I think insiders £600 is about right for low season but too low for New Year or half term.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Unfortunately, I think this seasons price hike for ski olympic has raised expectations and they didn't actually meet it., IMHO. Still good, but not good value. Shame, I love ski Olympic as a TO. I hope they review their pricing policy for next season as I would like to use them again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
