 Poster: A snowHead
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is equivalent to sailing without a lifejacket -
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the dinghy lot have the same argument over those, - wearing one restricts your movement, can trap you etc etc etc
but imho the point here is one of informed consent, those skiing with an instructor by definition are not aware of the dangers or cant decide for themselves if conditions are dangerous as they dont know. The instructor should teach them and they they can make their own mind up.
For the record im in the would only ski with kit and only ski with people with kit camp but if others dont want to thenfine, just not with me. ( and i always sail with a buoyancy aid)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| dennisp wrote: |
This is almost - IMO only of course - is almost as stupid an argument as the helmet argument!
Of course the chances against you needing it are slim, but are you really willing to put you and your family up against the odds? Having just read Chatel Snow's friends account of being caught in an avalanche, and seeing Steilhang's pic above, I can't see I would take the risk to go without it.
No, I'm not alarmist.
At the end of the day, why would you NOT have proper safety gear? So you can boast to a chalet girl later?? |
With or without your avi kit (or a helmet for that matter), you're still taking a risk. Labelling people whose perception of risk, or tolerance of risk, is somewhat different to one's own as 'stupid' illustrates what is really tiresome about these threads.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In my opinion the instructor is not doing the best by you Corduroy. He's setting a poor example to less experienced skiers. He's essentially saying that it's fine to ski off-piste without the right gear. It also sounds like he's not explaining to you anything about why you're going where you're going. You need to question him about why he's chosen that route. How did he determine it's safe? What's the avalanche risk? How did that impact his judgement? Why is a tranceiver, probe and shovel not necessary in this location?
He shouldn't just be teaching you technique, he should be teaching you skiing and all that entails.
But then again he's an ESF instructor so he probably has an ego the size on Mont Blanc and thinks that the normal rules don't apply to him.
You may gather I'm not an ESF fan and I'll avoid booking ESF lessons for my nearest and dearest at all costs since their protectionist racket means they don't have to work as hard or diligently as the independents and do the right thing by their clients.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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On the second day of our second ski holiday our ESF instructor headed straight off the piste and into the powder that had fallen in the night - all very easy gradient stuff and in amongst the trees. Later in the week we were well away from the pistes finding a variety of stuff to play on. Again it was all at an easy gradient (except, perhaps, the 1.5m vertical drop onto a track) with very, very, very little chance of avalanching.
It was a great group (many were dancers) with a fantastic, creative instructor - Jean-Somebody out of Les Coches. Above all, he made sure that we understood the pleasure of skiing and it was one of my best weeks.
Corduroy, if you're worried then ask your instructor - politely. Hopefully, he'll be able to explain that he's taking you places with little or no history of avalanching and that the precise line you are taking would mitigate any risk.
In Britain each year, around 20 people are killed in collisions with deer. I would suggest that this is probably more likely.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Corduroy, why would an instructor be taking your kids into territory that was regarded at a high enough risk level to have a bleep?
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Not actively disagreeing with you... but where do you draw the line? Do you only get into cars with racing seats, 5-point harnesses, roll cages and a helmet with neck brace? If not, why not? When you walk the dog do you take a full walking survival kit inc GPS, space blanket, etc?
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Good hyperbole none the less!
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flangesax, It wasn't Corduroy, that mentioned kids it was me. I got them the bleeps for other reasons, but it seems silly for them not to have them when off-piste with their instructor even if they are in a low risk area as we now have them. However, I must admit I subscribe to the notion that the wrong side of the poles is off-piste and what I've gleaned from SH's over the years suggests to me that Off-piste carries possible risks. Admittedly the kids are probably at more risk from tree wells at the moment, but there is no harm in them starting to see such things as routine as a helmet - they will be off on their own soon enough!!
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| altis wrote: |
In Britain each year, around 20 people are killed in collisions with deer. I would suggest that this is probably more likely. |
Really? Even if that raw number is true it doesn't tell you anything about the risk of hitting and being killed by a deer whilst driving or allow any meaningful comparison with deaths due to avalanche. It does seem like a good example of how bad people are at judging risk though.
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In Britain each year, around 20 people are killed in collisions with deer. I would suggest that this is probably more likely.
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 that's a fun statistic.
I always wear a buoyancy aid in a dinghy (as does everyone else I know including some very keen racers) but I don't by any means always wear a life jacket in a cruiser. If anyone chastises me I ask them whether they wear a helmet when driving their cars.
In any sport involving an element of risk there is a series of decisions to be made about safety gear and people will vary in their approach. There are loads of places where you see quite a lot of people off piste, including groups with instructors, where the risk of avalanche is negligible to non-existent.
I have had several off piste lessons here, with a French instructor (though not ESF). No transceiver etc. But he did explain several times why what we were doing was OK whereas other spots (pointed out from chairlift) were not OK. And the ESF instructor on the cross-country week I did at New Year spoke quite a lot about the stability of the snow-pack. He also didn't seem to be over-burdened with ego, come to that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| that's a fun statistic. |
'Herd' it on Shared Planet on Monday:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03nt8hv
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 16-01-14 15:35; edited 1 time in total
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Can see why they do it, would guess that it tends to be very low risk terrain, and understand how it would be cost prohibitive to kit out all punters - BUT it's a terrible example and leads to the "I can see the piste so it's OK" type culture. Rather hypocritical given that the ESF are such staunch believers in safety, only competent racers are safe enough to teach etc 
I have met a number of continental instructors who don't even own personal safety kit. When challenged they've always said local knowledge is all they need. Again if it's just them their choice but as a role model it's appalling.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think the OP's question is put very sensibly though some of the answers are rather extreme.
I'm pretty sure that there is extensive terrain outside pistes that is very avy safe - much safer for instance than crossing the street in a large or medium sized City. I also think that instructors would know where this terrain is.
However, I think it would be a good idea for an instructor to say at least "I'm taking you to an offpiste area which is very low-angle / in the trees / has never slid before / the current avy risk is 2, etc". If for no other reason, to get the clients used to the idea that safety offpiste is important.
I do always wear the full monty of transceiver / shovel / probe (and more recently airbag) as I never know how far away from the pistes I'll end up. I hope to never have to use them for anything else than practicing.
As for kids - as my son is at a level where instructors often take the group offpiste, I ask him to always wear a transceiver. Same reason - even if it's supersafe he gets used to the concept.
I once took a half-day with an ESF chap in Portes de Soleil who took me on a well known route on the back of a mountain (can't remember the name but it's one of the main offpiste areas there). He got himself a transceiver from his brother but had no shovel or probe. I asked him about it and he said the risk was very low. I didn't really appreciate his approach but I let it go.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Only one instructor has ever given out avalanche gear to us, and now I think about it, most have had us playing around off piste, albeit in tracked out and evidently well known 'shortcut' type routes....Another reason to buy your own transceiver I guess.
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However, I think it would be a good idea for an instructor to say at least "I'm taking you to an offpiste area which is very low-angle / in the trees / has never slid before / the current avy risk is 2, etc". If for no other reason, to get the clients used to the idea that safety offpiste is important.
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I agree.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Personally, I ski off piste without any safety gear, but that's a personal risk. I wouldn't take my kids or a friend off piste without it, ie under my control, and if I was having lessons I think I'd expect the instructor to have the kit and to make sure I had it.
Only because - and I accept that I may be coming across as a bit litigation-happy this week - I'd have thought the failure to provide it would open ESF to a mahoosive claim from my estate if the worst happened?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| horizon wrote: |
I think the OP's question is put very sensibly though some of the answers are rather extreme.
I'm pretty sure that there is extensive terrain outside pistes that is very avy safe - much safer for instance than crossing the street in a large or medium sized City. I also think that instructors would know where this terrain is.
However, I think it would be a good idea for an instructor to say at least "I'm taking you to an offpiste area which is very low-angle / in the trees / has never slid before / the current avy risk is 2, etc". If for no other reason, to get the clients used to the idea that safety offpiste is important.
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That's what my instructor said when he took me off-piste without kit. It was a good one, it raised my awareness of the fact it's not because it's close to the piste, but rather the specific terrain that makes it safe to ski without kit (or with kit, for that matter).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you get buried in an avalanche you have a better chance if carrying a transceiver, provided there are a number of strong, experienced, well-trained and well-equipped people around. But it's usually a disaster, nonetheless. Like falling overboard off a cruising yacht at night, in a gale, wearing a life-jacket. The emphasis needs to be on avoiding the dangers, rather than relying on the technology, doesn't it?
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pam w, yup. Terrain selection is the key and everything else is there because if you choose to ski in avi terrain you are making decisions with imperfect information and are a fallible human.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sorry guys, been on the slopes all day so haven't had chance to respond to any comments.
Just to clarify we were not just 3 meters either side of a piste, rightly or wrongly that wouldn't have bothered me at all as i tend to take those kind of risks in my stride.
As we entered the corridor i did ask about a huge slab of snow above is as i was concerned given all the chat recently of ava risk. I am very much new to anything off piste so have no knowledge myself about what to look for but it did look risky to me.
My actually words were " Is this safe?" as i pointed at the pack. The ESF guy simply laughed and said "No, we all die today" in a sarcastic tone.
Now, as others have suggested even though it was probably perfectly safe i now see it is dangerous to behave this way. I was almost tempted to go back alone.
I guess he should have taken the time to explain why it was safe and why we didn't need any additional gear.
As for insurance, i am covered off piste but it won't provide a new life will it? It did make me wonder though if Ski School students should be covered under a general ESF policy a bit like learner drivers are covered by the instructors policy.
Here is the route we took. A pic paints a 1000 words.
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| Julian T wrote: |
| without safety gear, is equivalent to sailing without a lifejacket - yes, there may be calm days in sheltered waters where there's frankly very little risk, but most sailing instructors would still set a good example by insisting you wear one. |
Taking your boating analogy a >30 degree slope is the water equivalent of being out of your depth. What the ESF are generally (but not always I agree) doing is the water equivalent of being on the local boating lake.
I don't know the details of the original poster's case but the picture is alarming. Not somewhere I would go without a beacon.
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You have two choices, either leave the group lessons or accept that the instructor knows what he is doing.
there's obviosuly plenty of opinion on whether your instructor is right or wrong, but those are the facts.
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| eddiethebus wrote: |
You have two choices, either leave the group lessons or accept that the instructor knows what he is doing.
there's obviosuly plenty of opinion. |
Opinion is what i was after. I had already made the decision that i should trust him when i skied on, whether i was right to make that decision is the question though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Corduroy wrote: |
| My actually words were " Is this safe?" as i pointed at the pack. The ESF guy simply laughed and said "No, we all die today" in a sarcastic tone. |
Yeah, top notch customer service! 
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I'm glad that davidof says he wouldn't go there without a beacon. With a lot less experience than him, I wouldn't either (I try to be conservative in terrain choice, especially when I hear about high avy risk).
To be fair, I would go there with a guide without thinking twice. Not because the guide and I have transceivers, but because I trust someone for whom safety is top of mind.
The sarcastic attitude is worrying to say the least.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Corduroy wrote: |
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I don't know Avoriaz but I guess we are somewhere towards les Croset looking up to the east side of the mountain and the couloir comes of the Pointe de Chavanette. Photo taken in the morning. The couloir is NE facing. Although closed couloirs are often relatively avalanche free (they tend to collect so much snow during storms they auto-purge before anyone skis them) this one appears to have a N facing slope under the Pic de Chavanette which could develop slabs which would be funnelled into the couloir. The notch just before the summit is the Pas de Chavanette. The couloir is around 120 vertical meters over 160 horizontal meters or a somewhere between 30-35 degrees, the open east facing slopes are just under 30 degrees. Couloir starts at around 2200 meters.
Earlier this week the avalanche risk was given as 2 rising to 3 with the fresh snow on Tuesday.
Make of all that what you will. I assume the couloir gets skied a lot as it can be reached after a traverse. As I said above it seems like the kind of slope where you should wear a beacon but I've not skied it and have no local knowledge. The couloir may be avalanche controlled if there is a piste below like the Courchevel Saulire couloirs so could be pretty safe.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Corduroy wrote: |
| My actually words were " Is this safe?" as i pointed at the pack. The ESF guy simply laughed and said "No, we all die today" in a sarcastic tone. |
That's a pretty pathetic response by Mr ESF
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Corduroy,
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I had already made the decision that i should trust him when i skied on, whether i was right to make that decision is the question though.
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For the skier who is not totally self-reliant, it does boil down to trust in the guide in the end, doesn't it? I'm not a naturally trusting person. That said, assuming I could physically ski where he goes (an unlikely scenario, given the evidence of his photos) I would ski anywhere with davidof, including without avi kit if he deemed it safe. Do most mountain guides, let alone instructors, really share his level of knowledge and ability so searchingly and logically to assess risk? I kinda doubt it.
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You know it makes sense.
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Have to say, I trust my ESF instructors (who've lived in the village their whole lives) to take me out on the "local boating lake" without safety gear. I do ask how they know something is safe and they have given me lots of advice on where I can/can't go snowshoeing away from the pistes and why. They're not sarcastic back bottoms and I trust them - perhaps that makes me terribly naive… I want to do an avalanche safety course anyway, for my own sake and interest.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Corduroy, I don't know the area at all and am just looking at this picture but IMO i'd say that best practice would include some bleep training and kitting you up.
My main reason is that today it is fine... but conditions change drastically (even without fresh snow) so it implants the element of thought and consideration before doing the run again (without an instructor) whenever, just because you have done it before and it was alriight then
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Poster: A snowHead
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flangesax, agreed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| Do most mountain guides, let alone instructors, really share his level of knowledge and ability so searchingly and logically to assess risk? I kinda doubt it. |
Mountain guides definitely, they are in the mountains every day of the winter. Ski instructors? It depends, I would trust someone like offpisteskiing for example, again he's in the mountains every day of the season. That gives you a "mind palace" of knowledge about the evolution of the snow pack. I rely on being more cautious. A 25 year old whose just done his ENSA course and has a Eurotest. Not so much.
The ESF instructor should be fully qualified if leading off piste shouldn't he? Without being on the lessons this week it is hard to form a real opinion. People ski the Saulire couloirs and those above the avalanche protection on the Bellevarde in Val d'Isere all the time without a beacon.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Steilhang wrote: |
| Lizzard wrote: |
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I find that very strange the the instructor is doing that with you. Never experienced that before.
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You need to get out more - they do it all the time. Zillions of them at it here yesterday, powder three metres from the piste. |
I get out plenty thanks & I plan to continue doing so.
Of course if you're only three meters from the piste then that's ok...
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It really hits the point home that off piste skiing is as soon as you step off the groomed piste.
Where and when was this taken?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It would be very interesting to write a short letter to whoever is in charge of esf in that resort recounting where you went and what instructor said and see what response is.
When an incident involving any kind of guided group occurs in France and no transceiver worn there usually seems to be hell to pay.
Please re-post what response you get
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Also, one important difference in this scenario between backcountry amd 3m off side of piste is if something happens backcountry, high chance instructor will also be buried and you have half a dozen panicked novices with no transceivers and no idea what to do and likely to put themselves in more danger, whereas near piste, there is some hope someone with some kind of training and equipment (probe shovel) will have witnessed incident
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shep, is the couloir the OP skied the one with the big rock in it? I've skied it on my own, but not after fresh snow - we backed out if it after a bit of a dump not knowing how safe it was. Are the controlled gullies further right (ie away from Swiss Wall) on the pic?
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andy from embsay, Yes death couloir has the big rock in the middle near the top. And yes the chutes accessed off the Mossette chairs (by cutting back under the swiss Mossette chair or going left off the ridge as you start down the piste on the french side) are monitored and skied-off by the pisteurs, since they could avalanche onto the red piste below if allowed to accumulate. Those accessed via cubore or grand-conche are not controlled.
You're right to be wary after a dump, you need things to be super stable all around, and do a sighting lap via the ESF couloir first before thinking about first (or even subsequent) tracks.
The most testing is poubelle, in that cleft you can see cutting down to the left from the arrowhead in the pic. Traverse beyond death couloir and over the saddle to access it. Very steep, dead straight, and never more than 3 ski-lengths wide  .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| shep wrote: |
| andy from embsay, Yes death couloir has the big rock in the middle near the top. And yes the chutes accessed off the Mossette chairs (by cutting back under the swiss Mossette chair or going left off the ridge as you start down the piste on the french side) are monitored and skied-off by the pisteurs, since they could avalanche onto the red piste below if allowed to accumulate. |
Is one of those the one you drop into by a cross by the blue run or am I getting mixed up? Seem to remember doing something steepish and shortish that dropped onto a piste from up there somewhere!
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Did they tell you you'd be going off-piste when you booked the course, and was any information provided then about safety equipment? I guess then would have been the time to ask, before paying up. When I've done courses with Snoworks and TDC, all the kit has been provided as well as training in how to use it, and this has been quite explicit in the booking information.
I had an experience a few years ago with one of the British ski schools in Avoriaz when I booked on a 4 day improvers' course which was supposed to be about improving piste skills at red-run standard but we ended up spending half the week off piste (and not just off the sides of the piste), with no avi kit. I'm sure the instructor was able to make good judgements about where was safe to ski, but the problem as far as I was concerned was that I'd come out prepared for a week's piste skiing, and had no off-piste insurance.
I perhaps didn't take that as seriously then as I do now, with the benefit of a bit more understanding of how stuffed I would have been insurance-wise if I'd had an accident. I wasn't too happy with the whole situation, and told the instructor when he first announced we would be going off piste that I wasn't insured, but he didn't seem bothered. I think he was more interested in chasing the fresh powder. In retrospect, I could have gone down to the ticket office and upgraded to a Carre Neige with my pass, but didn't know of the existence of this then. My experience with the likes of Snoworks on the other hand is they quite clearly stipulate that you have to be properly insured for off-piste.
What I learned from this is to check exactly what the deal is before booking.
If I was booking a course or lessons that involved off-piste, I'd be wanting to know whether avi kit was provided or whether you were expected to provide your own. And whether everybody taking part would be expected to carry and know how to use the kit.
Once you've paid up for a course, it's quite difficult if you aren't happy with how it's being run, as you'll likely not get a refund if you walk out on it.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 17-01-14 9:40; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
! As Davidof says, it's lift accessed and does get skied a lot, but I've never heard of anyone getting avalanched in there. I've probably skied it in all of the last 27 seasons; however, I've turned back at the top a lot of times too!
I'd have probably skied it in the 2/3 conditions earlier in the week, but would not have taken clients down there when I was with ESF. The chute three to photographer's right (mostly hidden) is known as "ESF Couloir", they regularly take "compet" and the top groups through there, including the kids.